Television Game of Thrones (TV) • The watch has ended

Buchan said:
Don't click on spoilers. Simple.

I don't and I don't run the risk of having something ruined for me. I also avoid this thread until I've watched the latest episode (leaked or otherwise), yet some folk seem to have trouble in that regard.
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I think labeling those help as well. Some people post speculation which might not be a bad thing to read in certain situations, some people post trailers and previews from future episodes which is a big no no for some and some even use spoilers to discuss past things.
 
Haven't posted on here in a while but have been following the thread pretty much the entire way. It's my main source of post-episode discussion.

On topic, two things really:

1) I'm glad that people in this thread are coming to realise that the whole thread has been tainted by people who read leaks/spoilers/whatever the hell else. It's not just been this season though, it's been the entire way through. It's doubly frustrating because I imagine people post spoilers in here hoping to get a pat on the back when they're proven "correct" but I don't think I've ever seen that happen.

GoT is a great show and it's actually quite cool that it's such a phenomenon because there is so much content that surrounds it. Sadly, that's tainted for the aforementioned reason.

It's pretty bad for me as the show is so expansive that I can't remember most of what has happened in previous seasons. I need someone to explain to me why something is significant but that opens me up to the pathetic "I have a theory" types. I imagine I'm not alone in this.

2) Agree that the show, in terms of its writing, has been in decline for a couple of seasons now. You can see that the very intelligent man who wrote the original, intricate, storylines isn't the one writing the current ones. Given that GoT reeled many (myself included) in based on how it respected cause/effect and the "reality" of a magical realm, it really takes a lot out of the show. It's frustrating reading fanboys (yes, fanboys!) excusing it. It won't ruin the show but it definitely detracts from it.

For example, during the main scene yesterday, I was emotionally invested and wanted Daenarys to ride to the rescue but it was also sad in that I was pretty sure she would. Old-school GoT--the show that most of us fell in love with originally--wouldn't have offered me that reassurance. Bear attacks and someone dies? Of course it's a bloke I don't recognise. Bloke falls away from Jon into a crowd of undead shit and gets torn apart? Yeah, don't recognise him either.

If GoT were a video game they'd really need to fix this hilarious AI bug about enemy-detection near water. Jaime and Bronn fall into water, suddenly invisible to an entire enemy army (despite charging directly at their commander). Jon Snow gets dragged down by multiple undead, emerges casually. Annoyingly bad writing.

(As an aside, it's against rules to discuss casting, etc so may I ask someone PM me with a source article on why there are only two seasons left with reduced episodes in each? Would be grateful, thanks.)

(As a double aside, @RedSky smells)
 
AVARiCE said:
(As an aside, it's against rules to discuss casting, etc so may I ask someone PM me with a source article on why there are only two seasons left with reduced episodes in each? Would be grateful, thanks.)[/USER] smells)
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I don't have any articles, though they are easily found, but I'm under the impression that the showrunners haven't been so happy since they overtook the books and just want to get it finished. So to do that, and afford the big battles/effects they need, they've cut the seasons short.
 
:lol: Hey sexy. @AVARiCE

I think ultimately the reason why GoT (early seasons) worked so well was the complexity of writing, clever dialogue and reduced fantasy elements. In fantasy its very easy to use those elements as a way of solving problems, coming up with magic or a creature to fix issues with the plot. I don't overly blame the writers to be fair, I imagine they'd have thought George would have written the next damn book by now. But what it shows imo is how difficult and time consuming it is to create a story with limited plot holes that makes sense and has enough complexity to make it engrossing. The TV writers have failed in some areas and succeeded in others imo (but the good tends to glossed over while the bad is torn to pieces).

Part of the problem is that in terms of characters we don't actually have that many left:

Main Characters:
- Daenerys
- Tyrion
- Arya
- Bran
- Jon
- Sansa
- Cersei
- Jamie

Secondary Characters:
- Bronn
- Melisandre
- Hound
- Missandei
- Greyworm
- Jorah
- Brienne
- Davos
- Podd
- Meera
- Littlefinger
- Varys
- Tormund
- Theon
- Yara
- Samwell

Other Characters:
- Sandsnake Mum
- Cersei Maester fella
- Euron
- Mountain
- Blacksmith fella (can't remember his name)
- Samwell bird
- Flaming Sword man

I think that's mostly everyone. Given that you need enough characters to survive the ending we don't really have many left as sacrificial lambs. We still have like 10 hours of episodes left and when/if the Lannisters are finally defeated a number of those characters will probably die. They probably could have had Bronn die but then who would Jamie have to talk with? Just Cersei. Flaming Sword guy/Hound/Jorah/Tormund were expendable in the last episode, but Jorah being healed to then die would be stupid. Tormund is needed given he's the only Wildling character left and he's required to give them a voice. So Hound was the only one left who could have died. I think ultimately what they probably fecked up on was not providing us with enough new characters during Season 5/6 so when they did die in this season is actually meant something.

If you think about who's died in this season, it's only been SandSnakes (yawn), Old Thorn Lady and a Dragon. Not too surprising though given they killed like 10 characters in the finale of last season though.
 
Cheesy said:
This is largely correct. I don't mind them coming up with the idea of wanting to prove the existence of White Walkers to Cersei, but the problem is that sending a team of Jon and Daenerys' most valuable men beyond the Wall into a situation of certain peril to maybe obtain one wight if they're lucky and all don't die to someone who's almost certainly not going to listen is a daft plan.

The most sensible measure for Daenerys to take would be to just...take the capital. Yes, it'll result in a high number of deaths, but considering what's coming it'd realistically prevent a lot more, and she's shown herself to be willing to burn hundreds/thousands when taking on the Lannister army. But again...she isn't going to do that, presumably, because they're not ready to kill off Cersei yet.

And for what it's worth...I don't mind plot armour when it's used correctly. You naturally don't want to kill off every protagonist, because then you're left without a story, but the writers have done a poor job of trying to make the plot work this season without it being obvious what they're doing. The plan to capture a wight wasn't done with any inherent logic; it was done because we haven't had a proper confrontation with the WW's yet this season, and the writers wanted one. The Lannister/Targaryen battle was visually magnificent, but the fact that the consequences were minimal and Jaime got away unharmed suggests it was done because the writers wanted a big battle, but couldn't be arsed to result in it having any lasting effect. And I say that as someone who thought episode four was a fantastic watch.
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After watching that episode I think the whole idea behind this plot line was to make an Ice Dragon to cater to the fans who have been calling for one.
There is no other logical explanation behind it. The whole idea was farcical and badly planned.
 
RedSky said:
:lol: Hey sexy. @AVARiCEI think that's mostly everyone. Given that you need enough characters to survive the ending we don't really have many left as sacrificial lambs. We still have like 10 hours of episodes left and when/if the Lannisters are finally defeated a number of those characters will probably die. They probably could have had Bronn die but then who would Jamie have to talk with? Just Cersei. Flaming Sword guy/Hound/Jorah/Tormund were expendable in the last episode, but Jorah being healed to then die would be stupid. Tormund is needed given he's the only Wildling character left and he's required to give them a voice. So Hound was the only one left who could have died. I think ultimately what they probably fecked up on was not providing us with enough new characters during Season 5/6 so when they did die in this season is actually meant something.

If you think about who's died in this season, it's only been SandSnakes (yawn), Old Thorn Lady and a Dragon. Not too surprising though given they killed like 10 characters in the finale of last season though.
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The problem, though, is that they keep on putting characters, both major and minor, in situations where they would realistically die, only to rescue them through convoluted means. Jaime's charge against Drogon didn't necessarily need to result in his death, but it should've had some consequences; he's able to fall into a river wearing armour and escape without harm...which makes Tyrion's powerful "You fecking idiot" beforehand feel a bit redundant.

I don't mind Daenerys rescuing the band beyond the Wall, or Benjen rescuing Jon, but it's the whole "last minute save" that grows tiresome and overdone when it's popping up every episode or two.
 
Fully Fledged said:
After watching that episode I think the whole idea behind this plot line was to make an Ice Dragon to cater to the fans who have been calling for one.
There is no other logical explanation behind it. The whole idea was farcical and badly planned.
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Pretty much. Which is part of my problem with the show. The production values/soundtrack/CGI etc is all excellent, but character decisions are being made to suit where the writers want to go with the show, as opposed to being based on any rational logic. The writers want an ice dragon, and a confrontation between the main characters and White Walkers. They didn't know how to get there though, so came up with this convoluted plan.

I saw a fair point made the other day that for all the action and excitement and fast-paced episodes this season, not that much has actually changed. The Ice Dragon is a bit of a shift, but the White Walkers were incredibly dangerous anyway, and always the bigger, ominous threat. Daenerys started the season by arriving on Dragonstone, with an army that could easily take Westeros. She's still in prime position to do that whenever she wants...she's traded controlled castles with the Lannisters, but apart from that remains the stronger of the two forces.

Characters haven't changed all that much either. Jaime still loves Cersei, and appears to be devoted to her with occasional hints of doubt. Tyrion is Daenerys' loyal servant. Jon's focused on the WW threat. The lack of consequential actions means there's little room for actual character development. Big, grand moments happen but they end up meaning little, or can be expected from a mile off.
 
RedSky said:
If you think about who's died in this season, it's only been SandSnakes (yawn), Old Thorn Lady and a Dragon. Not too surprising though given they killed like 10 characters in the finale of last season though.
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No love for Benjen or Dickon :(

I do like the line "the good tends to glossed over while the bad is torn to pieces". I think thats more on this place than anywhere else im part of.

Also I dont think enough people in this thread have mentioned 'the difference in the show ever since they've deviated from the book' :P
But yeah, I do agree with people talking about consequences from actions.

Episode related, I do find it funny though that due to the threat of the WW, they want to unite all houses to take them on but in the end, they ended up just making them stronger by giving them the biggest beast around :lol:
At least that is a consequence of their action. haha
 
Cheesy said:
The problem, though, is that they keep on putting characters, both major and minor, in situations where they would realistically die, only to rescue them through convoluted means. Jaime's charge against Drogon didn't necessarily need to result in his death, but it should've had some consequences; he's able to fall into a river wearing armour and escape without harm...which makes Tyrion's powerful "You fecking idiot" beforehand feel a bit redundant.

I don't mind Daenerys rescuing the band beyond the Wall, or Benjen rescuing Jon, but it's the whole "last minute save" that grows tiresome and overdone when it's popping up every episode or two.
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Agreed. It's one of those strands that probably sounds awesome on paper but in reality it's just stupid.

Sylar said:
No love for Benjen or Dickon :(

I do like the line "the good tends to glossed over while the bad is torn to pieces". I think thats more on this place than anywhere else im part of.

Also I dont think enough people in this thread have mentioned 'the difference in the show ever since they've deviated from the book' :P
But yeah, I do agree with people talking about consequences from actions.

Episode related, I do find it funny though that due to the threat of the WW, they want to unite all houses to take them on but in the end, they ended up just making them stronger by giving them the biggest beast around :lol:
At least that is a consequence of their action. haha
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Dickon and Benjen were barely worth mentioning as they barely had any screen time. Benjen was a crap character imo, so much potential wasted.

I guess the idea is to summon all of the houses to defend the wall. But logistically it seems impossible. How would you be able to feed that massive army at the wall, give them winter clothing, transport them up there in the first place. You'd probably need Eurons fleet to do all of that I suppose. But how many soldiers are realistically left anyway? Not to mention how much time they have to do all of that anyway and this is assuming that Cersei even believes them and will accept it anyway. Seems like another plan that was always doomed for failure.
 
Cheesy said:
I don't mind Daenerys rescuing the band beyond the Wall, or Benjen rescuing Jon, but it's the whole "last minute save" that grows tiresome and overdone when it's popping up every episode or two.
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latest


It reminded me of this.
 
RedSky said:
Agreed. It's one of those strands that probably sounds awesome on paper but in reality it's just stupid.



Dickon and Benjen were barely worth mentioning as they barely had any screen time. Benjen was a crap character imo, so much potential wasted.

I guess the idea is to summon all of the houses to defend the wall. But logistically it seems impossible. How would you be able to feed that massive army at the wall, give them winter clothing, transport them up there in the first place. You'd probably need Eurons fleet to do all of that I suppose. But how many soldiers are realistically left anyway? Not to mention how much time they have to do all of that anyway and this is assuming that Cersei even believes them and will accept it anyway. Seems like another plan that was always doomed for failure.
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Wouldnt it be better to let them cross the wall, move all the Northerners down south and defend the South where everyone already is? Or does the possibility of facing an even bigger army curtail that idea because there should be millions of bodies between the Wall and Dragonstone.
 
RDCR07 said:
Wouldnt it be better to let them cross the wall, move all the Northerners down south and defend the South where everyone already is? Or does the possibility of facing an even bigger army curtail that idea because there should be millions of bodies between the Wall and Dragonstone.
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I'd say so.
 
Only recently started finding Sophie Turner attractive. Didn't see it before but my word she's stunning.
 
RDCR07 said:
I like Emilia Clarke better. Sansa's voice is just downright annoying and whiny.
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oh I agree but she was always the defacto choice. Every man and their dog fancied Emilia when GOT started. Briennes another one, not conventionally beautiful but idk what it is but I'd love to have a crack .
 
Instead of whinging about the show appreciate the stuff they actually do to pull off these scenes.

 
To the show's credit, I'm so invested in the story and the characters that I loved episode 6. Despite it not being particularly well written, I've watched the damn thing three times now.

It's fecking ridiculous how much GoT means to me and the lengths I'll go to to watch it as soon as it's released. You can moan all you like about the pacing... the last 7 years have given the writers the leeway to focus on spectacle and narrative advancement. I don't think think any other show in history would have got that from me.
 
RDCR07 said:
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So from watching that:

-Why do they call Benjen "Coldhands"? Did I miss something? :lol:
-They should have given a better line to Benjen. Instead of "there is no time", when there was clearly time to get on the horse, they should have had him say something like "my time is up" (but better)
-The NK really should have gone for Drogon first since it had everybody on him, but more so as it was closer. I think they made a mistake in the filming and should have had the other dragon in the air but much much closer (but it was still a great scene). If it was explained that eventually that everything NK does has a reason, it would be cool, but I dont expect it to be so.
-D&Ds reason for Dany going makes sense, theres quite a few people there (Jorah and Jon) she cared or cares about. I think that should have been explained in the show. There wouldnt have been a need for Gendrys run and the raven being sent, (or he could have been sent but it would have been too late by the time he gets back). It may have been more impactful that she waited a couple of days, heard nothing, Tyrion says its to be expected and she cant risk it, but Dany says she wants to go as people like Jorah have put their life on the line for her.
 
Sylar said:
So from watching that:

-Why do they call Benjen "Coldhands"? Did I miss something? :lol:
-They should have given a better line to Benjen. Instead of "there is no time", when there was clearly time to get on the horse, they should have had him say something like "my time is up" (but better)
-The NK really should have gone for Drogon first since it had everybody on him, but more so as it was closer. I think they made a mistake in the filming and should have had the other dragon in the air but much much closer (but it was still a great scene). If it was explained that eventually that everything NK does has a reason, it would be cool, but I dont expect it to be so.
-D&Ds reason for Dany going makes sense, theres quite a few people there (Jorah and Jon) she cared or cares about. I think that should have been explained in the show. There wouldnt have been a need for Gendrys run and the raven being sent, (or he could have been sent but it would have been too late by the time he gets back). It may have been more impactful that she waited a couple of days, heard nothing, Tyrion says its to be expected and she cant risk it, but Dany says she wants to go as people like Jorah have put their life on the line for her.
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Wasnt Viserys flying towards the Night King and breathing fire along the way? Drogon was landed and he was in no immediate danger from Drogon. Hence he took out Viserys first.
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
Well, there's this:


Plus in literally the first episode they were within range of a Night's Watch patrol...
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The Wall is warded against the dead. They Whitewalkers have been amassing numbers and biding their time until they could get a dragon. When it comes down to it, we'll probably find out that going north of the Wall was exactly the thing that started the invasion.
 
Dante said:
To the show's credit, I'm so invested in the story and the characters that I loved episode 6. Despite it not being particularly well written, I've watched the damn thing three times now.

It's fecking ridiculous how much GoT means to me and the lengths I'll go to to watch it as soon as it's released. You can moan all you like about the pacing... the last 7 years have given the writers the leeway to focus on spectacle and narrative advancement. I don't think think any other show in history would have got that from me.
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Quite frankly THIS!
 
Dante said:
The Wall is warded against the dead. They Whitewalkers have been amassing numbers and biding their time until they could get a dragon. When it comes down to it, we'll probably find out that going north of the Wall was exactly the thing that started the invasion.
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Were they waiting for a dragon all this time? There is no way for them to know a dragon is alive or that it would come North of the wall. They were marching towards the wall all this time and picking up dead bodies (wights) along the way is my guess. They are slow movers unless they see a living thing they can chew the feck out of.
 
RDCR07 said:
Quite frankly THIS!
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https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-...show-on-tv-just-became-the-silliest?CMP=fb_gu

A criticism commonly levied at recent episodes of Game of Thrones is that characters suddenly appear to have developed the ability to teleport from one side of Westeros to the other with no more than a crinkling of their noses.

Jon was in Winterfell. Then Dragonstone. Then all of a sudden he was north of the Wall on some hairbrained scheme to kidnap a Wight. Whereas previous seasons would have dwelled on the minutiae of trudging from place to place, mining rich seams of character development along the way, this one has more world-ending matters to deal with than spending five episodes watching Jon and chums amble up a snowy hill. So it doesn’t bother. And while I reject the “teleportation” criticism – they don’t tend to show characters on the toilet either, because that too would be irrelevant to the plot – it is indicative of a deeper issue with the current series: that it’s become blindingly obvious seven episodes is simply not enough. The producers’ decision to shorten the episode count from 10 did make each episode a thrilling set piece. The problem is that they’ve been trying to cram so much into each, little things like “logic” and “character” have burst out of the seams.

Take this week’s episode, which alone gave us a panoply of huge, plot-altering events. We got a couple of fairly high-profile deaths in Benjen Stark and Paul Kaye’s Thoros. Arya basically threatening Sansa with a Littlefinger-approved DIY face-ectomy. So much Dany/Jon flirting you could cut the incestuous tension with a Valyrian steel dagger. Dany and Tyrion having a big falling out. A brilliant and very cold-looking battle. More dragons. An actual zombie bear. And then, the piece de resistance: the Night’s King getting a blue-eyed dragon all of his own.

Expect stabbings and stand-offs as an epic battle takes over this penultimate episode that would have been great fun to watch … if only the plot made sense
Read more
Massive stuff. Game-changing, some of it. It was another exciting, bravura hour of telly. But did any of these events land with the weight they deserved? Or did they all whizz past at such a relentless clip that none really had time to register? And did any of the characters do or say anything remotely plausible for the entire episode? No they did not.

The first five minutes of Beyond the Wall consisted almost entirely of characters telling each other exactly what they thought of them in great granite slabs of exposition, as opposed to giving relationships space to percolate slowly and organically as the show has done so adeptly in the past. It felt clunky and forced. Then the action started, and everything got a bit silly. Huge leaps of logic aside – how long would it take a raven to fly from the Wall to Dragonstone anyway? Why does killing a White Walker make all his subservient Wights disappear, bar one? – the characters felt like they were little more than window-dressing as the narrative groaned and twisted to see to it that Dany joined the war against the Walkers and the Night’s King got his dragon. It often feels as if the tail’s wagging the direwolf.

Characters used to act, and plot used to unfurl, in ways that felt real; that’s what gave this geeky genre series about dragons and magic its global crossover appeal. Now? We know Jon will be part of the larger battle to come, so we knew he hadn’t drowned. The Night’s King needed a dragon, so the plot gave us a half-baked reason – Dany coming to a profoundly unlikely rescue – for him to get one. Sansa sends Brienne away because the plot requires her to be unprotected, nothing more. Characters aren’t so much pieces being moved on a board than the board is being moved under them, credulity be damned. In a show full of dragons and magic, it’s strange that the humans are starting to feel fake.

To the series’ credit, if you are going to paper over gulfs in logic, the best way to do it is with explosions, zombie bears and flaming swords. Every episode is a tantalising prospect as the story gallops towards a conclusion like a windmilling drunkard, and none have disappointed so far. The pace hasn’t let up all season. It’s physically impossible to dislike a programme this relentlessly, air-punchingly entertaining.

So it’s still the best show on TV, and I will have an inappropriately passionate argument with anyone who claims otherwise. It’s just a shame it’s also now one of the daftest.
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Here's the opposing view.

The crux of the author's contention is "did any of these events land with the weight they deserved? Or did they all whizz past at such a relentless clip that none really had time to register? And did any of the characters do or say anything remotely plausible for the entire episode? No they did not."

I think he misses the point. It's a 7 episode season, and avid watchers will watch and re-watch each one. You don't need to feel the gravitas of each scene in the moment. There's plenty of time to digest it on repeated viewings. This is a different kind of TV, and a lot of critics are stuck in the old paradigm.
 
I know it's a stupid question but isn't it like whoever the Night's king touches becomes a white walker? like those children who were offered to the Nght's king after they were born. If yes, then why didn't Bran get converted after he was marked?
 
Dante said:
To the show's credit, I'm so invested in the story and the characters that I loved episode 6. Despite it not being particularly well written, I've watched the damn thing three times now.

It's fecking ridiculous how much GoT means to me and the lengths I'll go to to watch it as soon as it's released. You can moan all you like about the pacing... the last 7 years have given the writers the leeway to focus on spectacle and narrative advancement. I don't think think any other show in history would have got that from me.
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Samesies.

Im looking forward to my annual rewatch already.
 
anant said:
I know it's a stupid question but isn't it like whoever the Night's king touches becomes a white walker? like those children who were offered to the Nght's king after they were born. If yes, then why didn't Bran get converted after he was marked?
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Is seeing him through the 3ERs vision the same as face to face?
 
Dante said:
https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-...show-on-tv-just-became-the-silliest?CMP=fb_gu


Here's the opposing view.

The crux of the author's contention is "did any of these events land with the weight they deserved? Or did they all whizz past at such a relentless clip that none really had time to register? And did any of the characters do or say anything remotely plausible for the entire episode? No they did not."

I think he misses the point. It's a 7 episode season, and avid watchers will watch and re-watch each one. You don't need to feel the gravitas of each scene in the moment. There's plenty of time to digest it on repeated viewings. This is a different kind of TV, and a lot of critics are stuck in the old paradigm.
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I hate to say but I agree with the Guardian. More about the lack of logic behind the plot than missing the gravitas of the scenes.

I missed the intensity of today's episode because I could not get over the glaring fact that they should not have been there. I was waiting throughout the episode for the penny to drop. What's the point behind this episode? Why are they doing something so stupid? Then it dropped. It was all about the Blue eyed dragon.

They wrote an implausible impractical story line just to give the Night King a Dragon.


That said the CGI is immense and carries the battle scenes to epic proportions. We have been waiting for the characters to reach certain events in their life for years so it feels great when we see them finally happen. These things carry the show and make it the behemoth it has become.
 
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That making of clip, D&D saying they've been trying to get a dead polar bear in for four seasons. They're just big children :lol:
 
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