Television Game of Thrones (TV) • The watch has ended

General question...overall this is a brilliant show....now answer this....would GOT be better, worse, or the same if it were on Netflix?

Doubt this belongs in spoiler tags but lets be on the safe side.....Do you lot think the little birds/spys are truly loyal to Cersis right hand man, the scientist or is Varys still controlling them from afar. I thought he made a comment last season or the season before saying something to the effect of his little birds are still his......
 
Reafer said:
Then again, Euron did get stab by the spear.
Will he die? or turn to zombie under Cersei's rule like the Mountain. Similar to Oberyn, the Sand Snakes love to play with poison, so I'm sure the spear is coated, plus they won't show that scene if they're not going with this. Assuming he become a zombie, not sure if the Ironborn will follow him.

If Euron die, and Yara still in captive, the Ironborn won't follow Cersei. Wow, will we see Theon become their leader :drool: that would be an amazing twist-storytelling.

I miss Ghost.
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He got stabbed by the knife not the spear. It isnt laced with poison. He would have died there if that was the case. He is well and truly alive.
 
Replaying S1, and Jamie just said he'd rather die a clean death than live on as a cripple. Mind blown.

I'm now even more certain Tyrion's measured remark about Sansa outlasting them all may well be foreshadowing.
 
robinamicrowave said:
Sadly I think the show has just forgotten about Stannis' fleet ever since those unfortunate events occurred for Stannis at the end of season 5.
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I reckon that if you remove Stannis from the shows history entirely, everything would still be roughly the same as it is... completely pointless character.
 
Massive Spanner said:
Wouldn't have gotten one of the shows best episodes, to be fair.
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Battle of Black Water? To be fair, in that episode, Stannis' fleet could have been replaced with "Unnamed Army X" and the episode would have been the same. All the dramatic tension in that episode came from the Lannister end.
 
RDCR07 said:
He got stabbed by the knife not the spear. It isnt laced with poison. He would have died there if that was the case. He is well and truly alive.
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The story is that Oberyn was extensively educated in different poisons, some slow acting some quick to kill, we'd assume he passed on some of that knowledge to his daughters. There's no way to know if Euron will die immediately if touched by a poison laced knife.
 
Annihilate Now! said:
I reckon that if you remove Stannis from the shows history entirely, everything would still be roughly the same as it is... completely pointless character.
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The Stannis arc will probably end up being less about Stannis and more about his tag alongs Melisandre and Davos.
 
Annihilate Now! said:
I reckon that if you remove Stannis from the shows history entirely, everything would still be roughly the same as it is... completely pointless character.
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it will be interesting to see what happens with Stannis in the books - he felt a bit superficial in the TV series
 
buckooo1978 said:
it will be interesting to see what happens with Stannis in the books - he felt a bit superficial in the TV series
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WE GOT A READER!
Annihilate Now! said:
Battle of Black Water? To be fair, in that episode, Stannis' fleet could have been replaced with "Unnamed Army X" and the episode would have been the same. All the dramatic tension in that episode came from the Lannister end.
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I don't see how he was pointless, to be fair, he had a big involvement in many key plots in the show.

I mean, could they have replaced him with another character and still gotten tot his point in the show? Well yeah, but who the feck couldn't you replace aside from maybe Daenerys and Jon because they was were off on their own with no involvement.

and wouldn't "unnamed army X" have been a bit shit, too? who would care about a battle against an enemy we don't know.
 
Massive Spanner said:
WE GOT A READER!

I don't see how he was pointless, to be fair, he had a big involvement in many key plots in the show.

I mean, could they have replaced him with another character and still gotten tot his point in the show? Well yeah, but who the feck couldn't you replace aside from maybe Daenerys and Jon because they was were off on their own with no involvement.

and wouldn't "unnamed army X" have been a bit shit, too? who would care about a battle against an enemy we don't know.
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Did he? Save Blackwater and that bit where he randomly saved Jon Snow from the Wildlings, I can't remember what other key plots he got involved in? That's the thing with Stannis, he got a lot of screen time, but he was always mostly kept to himself.

I'm not saying he could have been replaced by another character, I'm saying eliminating his character would mean we'd be in roughly the same place now anyway... which you couldn't say for Jon/Daenerys/Cerci/Sansa/Joff/Tyrion etc. I don't think
 
Annihilate Now! said:
Did he? Save Blackwater and that bit where he randomly saved Jon Snow from the Wildlings, I can't remember what other key plots he got involved in? That's the thing with Stannis, he got a lot of screen time, but he was always mostly kept to himself.

I'm not saying he could have been replaced by another character, I'm saying eliminating his character would mean we'd be in roughly the same place now anyway... which you couldn't say for Jon/Daenerys/Cerci/Sansa/Joff/Tyrion etc. I don't think
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You could definitely say it for Joffrey and Tyrion, if you're going by that logic.
 
Massive Spanner said:
You could definitely say it for Joffrey and Tyrion, if you're going by that logic.
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Joffrey's death meant something as it resulted in Tyrion being imprisoned, which lead to The Viper fighting for him, which resulted in blah blah blah. Tyrion is still alive so who knows what will happen to him.

Stannis was awesome and was involved heavily in a lot, but I felt that his weak death ruined his arc and has tainted him somewhat to some people. But if anything he's only forgettable because the way his story ended wasn't very satisfying. Had there been a proper battle scene at Winterfell rather than a fade out then personally I would have been happy. But we are where we are. And I suppose that him dying in such an unspectacular way showed that war isn't all about glory.

GRRM was a conscientious objector during the Vietnam War, and has said many times before that war never works.

which is a reason why I think that we shouldn't see the show end with Daeny/Jon taking the throne before joining all the armies of Westeros up to fight and defeat the Night King. It's too clean for Martin and goes against his fundamental beliefs about fighting.
 
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Annihilate Now! said:
Did he? Save Blackwater and that bit where he randomly saved Jon Snow from the Wildlings, I can't remember what other key plots he got involved in? That's the thing with Stannis, he got a lot of screen time, but he was always mostly kept to himself.

I'm not saying he could have been replaced by another character, I'm saying eliminating his character would mean we'd be in roughly the same place now anyway... which you couldn't say for Jon/Daenerys/Cerci/Sansa/Joff/Tyrion etc. I don't think
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You take Stannis out of the story and there would be no Red Wedding.
 
I've just been thinking about it a little and I've decided how I would like the show to end (therefore the writers must do it because I'm awesome and all that)...
No matter what happens, there needs to be an acknowledgement (probably by Jon) that the white walkers aren't evil. The show can't continue to keep this good/bad narrative for their final fight.

Daeny will secure her throne but slowly fall into madness, leaving her once again fighting against the people who she is meant to rule over. This will end up with her being killed by either her followers, or more likely a large group of peasants. Jon will be named interim King and a fractured faction of Westeros armies will end up banding together, with some Lords choosing not to join a coalition, but there will be enough to fight the advancing army of the Night King. But the battle will be lost and all on Westeros will have to flee to Essos. Jon will be seen once again leaving on a boat as the Night King looks on. Westeros will be consumed by the army of the dead, whereupon the Night King will shatter the Iron Throne.

In Essos, the remaining Westerosi leaders will meet and argue about losing their homes, as well as fend off accusations from Essos Lords that they have effectively invaded their lands and will have no power or titles here. This will lead to tension in the room between the Essos Lords and some of the richer Westerosi. Jon will try and persuade them that they must learn from the lessons they have just been taught, but it will be for nothing. Because war is a constant spiral, and nothing can change that no matter how much the next ruler thinks he can. The show will end with Jon's face, defeated as he looks on at Westerosi and Essos lords shouting over his calls for peace, as the camera slowly zooms out across a hall filled with people arguing.
 
A question to got viewers in this thread :

What kind of ending you wish to see?

As in happy ending? Bad ending? Hanging ending? Gray ending?

As for me I'd love a happy ending where the good guys win, regardless of how mainstream that is. I want a show with proper ending instead or a gray ending, although happy in got universe isn't actually Cinderella like.
 
fcbforever said:
That's like saying "take Arya out of the story and there is no red wedding". None of the underlying motivations of the red wedding ( Stark vs Lannisters, Freys vs. Tullys, Boltons vs. Starks ) has any relation to Stannis.
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but isn't that the whole point here? it's a pointless argument, saying you can take x out of the show and replace them with y to achieve the same results applied to almost any character. you'll arrive at the same point, you'll just do it differently.
 
Sky1981 said:
A question to got viewers in this thread :

What kind of ending you wish to see?

As in happy ending? Bad ending? Hanging ending? Gray ending?

As for me I'd love a happy ending where the good guys win, regardless of how mainstream that is. I want a show with proper ending instead or a gray ending, although happy in got universe isn't actually Cinderella like.
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I actually want something like this.
08-14.png

"...and then they all died the end."
 
fcbforever said:
That's like saying "take Arya out of the story and there is no red wedding". None of the underlying motivations of the red wedding ( Stark vs Lannisters, Freys vs. Tullys, Boltons vs. Starks ) has any relation to Stannis.
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Without Stannis taking out Renly and giving Highgarden's power to the Lannisters as a result, the war would have ended in a year. Balon Greyjoy seeing House Lannister besieged and without hope for victory would also consent to Theon's plan and take Casterly Rock instead of invading the North.

So yes, Stannis and his actions very much shaped the events that lead to the Red Wedding. Do you think Walder Frey would dare concocting that scheme if he has no great house behind him to save his ass?
 
Annihilate Now! said:
Did he? Save Blackwater and that bit where he randomly saved Jon Snow from the Wildlings, I can't remember what other key plots he got involved in? That's the thing with Stannis, he got a lot of screen time, but he was always mostly kept to himself.

I'm not saying he could have been replaced by another character, I'm saying eliminating his character would mean we'd be in roughly the same place now anyway... which you couldn't say for Jon/Daenerys/Cerci/Sansa/Joff/Tyrion etc. I don't think
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killed his brother too with thanks to the shadow beast that crawled from Red Bitch with Fine Tits fanny

his brother laid claim to the throne and his death freed Margery to Joffrey etc

domino effect
 
buckooo1978 said:
killed his brother too with thanks to the shadow beast that crawled from Red Bitch with Fine Tits fanny

his brother laid claim to the throne and his death freed Margery to Joffrey etc

domino effect
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Oh yeah that too... though I do my best to forget about that... was my least favourite "mystical" thing this show has done by far.
 
Sky1981 said:
A question to got viewers in this thread :

What kind of ending you wish to see?

As in happy ending? Bad ending? Hanging ending? Gray ending?

As for me I'd love a happy ending where the good guys win, regardless of how mainstream that is. I want a show with proper ending instead or a gray ending, although happy in got universe isn't actually Cinderella like.
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Personally I hope for an ending that that isn't afraid to upset viewers, i'm not suggesting killing everyone off, but i'd rather have an ending which sacrifices characters for the greater good of Westeros. It can't be a "they lived happily ever after". I think it'd be interesting if Daenerys does manage to destroy the wheel but it results in a less desired outcome for her, Westeros being split in two. The North and the South as two separate kingdoms. That then results in a bittersweet outcome for her character and it's been a theme for much of the show.
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
Without Stannis taking out Renly and giving Highgarden's power to the Lannisters as a result, the war would have ended in a year. Balon Greyjoy seeing House Lannister besieged and without hope for victory would also consent to Theon's plan and take Casterly Rock instead of invading the North.

So yes, Stannis and his actions very much shaped the events that lead to the Red Wedding. Do you think Walder Frey would dare concocting that scheme if he has no great house behind him to save his ass?
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You could have literally been replacing Stannis with a falling candelabra then. He's not really important to the story, he's an outsider as others have said. He is very important for the plot though. That's a difference, and an important one.

Like all the Kings in that war, he is an example of how NOT to rule. Neither the noble Renly, the cruel Joffrey, the dutyful Stannis nor the idealistic Rob would have made a good king. His tale is a moral one, all of them are to some degree. Tywin sums the lessons up very well when he speaks to Tommen over they dead body of Joffrey.
 
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Stannis was useless tbh. For this supposed great strategic war planner, to get done by Ramsay and a few good men resulting in what happened to Shireen was nuts (I put that down to poor writing)
But writing on the show has made him look terrible and deserved of his death.

Sky1981 said:
A question to got viewers in this thread :

What kind of ending you wish to see?

As in happy ending? Bad ending? Hanging ending? Gray ending?

As for me I'd love a happy ending where the good guys win, regardless of how mainstream that is. I want a show with proper ending instead or a gray ending, although happy in got universe isn't actually Cinderella like.
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Something bittersweet, where sacrifices are made, the true fallout of War shown, where War doesnt bring peace and happiness, but destruction and ruin.


I also want the WW to be shown as having some sort of plan and not just 'LETS KILL HUMANS'. They were put here for a reason and since then, which was to stop humans, but something obviously triggered them to go even further. Would be nice to see that through a Bran flashback (which is explained to Jon?).
Also with Jon coming back from the dead, I wonder if theres something thats changed and hes seen differently by WW / undead now compared to when the Nights King saw him at Hardhome?
 
fcbforever said:
You could have literally been replacing Stannis with a falling candelabra then. He's not really important to the story, he's an outsider as others have said. He is very important for the plot though. That's a difference, and an important one.

Like all the Kings in that war, he is an example of how NOT to rule. Neither the noble renly, the cruel Joffrey, the dutyful Stannis nor the idealistic Rob would have made a good king. His tale is a moral one, all of them are to some degree. Tyson sums the lessons up very well when he speaks to Tommen over they dead body of Joffrey.
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You seem to have this habit of taking my words out of context. The post I was replying to stated that eliminating his character and all the major characters would still end up where they are now, which is demonstrably false. My reference to a game-changing, notable event like the RW was an example.
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
You seem to have this habit of taking my words out of context. The post I was replying to stated that eliminating his character and all the major characters would still end up where they are now, which is demonstrably false. My reference to a game-changing, notable event like the RW was an example.
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I don't. I very much disagree with your point of view: you could have replaced Stannis with a candelabra falling on Renly and we would be where we are now. Including the red wedding. He's essential to the plot, he's not essential to the story. It is not, like you seem to think, that you can replace most major characters like that. Most of them have motivations which are essential to the story and drive it forwards, Stannis doesn't really.
 
Sylar said:
Stannis was useless tbh. For this supposed great strategic war planner, to get done by Ramsay and a few good men resulting in what happened to Shireen was nuts (I put that down to poor writing)
But writing on the show has made him look terrible and deserved of his death.



Something bittersweet, where sacrifices are made, the true fallout of War shown, where War doesnt bring peace and happiness, but destruction and ruin.


I also want the WW to be shown as having some sort of plan and not just 'LETS KILL HUMANS'. They were put here for a reason and since then, which was to stop humans, but something obviously triggered them to go even further. Would be nice to see that through a Bran flashback (which is explained to Jon?).
Also with Jon coming back from the dead, I wonder if theres something thats changed and hes seen differently by WW / undead now compared to when the Nights King saw him at Hardhome?
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There's a strong case to be made for some things to be just left unexplained. One thing that ruined the Star Wars prequels was Lucas "explaining" the force. One thing that made LOTR so great is that however far you go in this universe, there's still some things unexplained and intentionally so. Tom Bombadil is one of those eternal mysterial figures which is very much loved on the basis that we never got an explanation what, or who, he is.

People just seem to have an obsession with Martin being such an exceptional storywriter (He isn't by the way, he's just an exceptional world builder while not being nearly as good as a storywriter as, for example, J.R.R. Tolkien or even someone like Joane K. Rowling) that there is always an underlying, deeper motivation for anything. Probably not in this case, the walkers are likely just a McGuffing to set plot and story in motion and I'm fine with that. Giving them some deeper motivation just takes the fear and diminishes the threat they pose and that would be a bad thing.
 
Sky1981 said:
A question to got viewers in this thread :

What kind of ending you wish to see?

As in happy ending? Bad ending? Hanging ending? Gray ending?

As for me I'd love a happy ending where the good guys win, regardless of how mainstream that is. I want a show with proper ending instead or a gray ending, although happy in got universe isn't actually Cinderella like.
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All humans die and only white walkers and dragons remain- A song of ice and fire
 
fcbforever said:
I don't. I very much disagree with your point of view: you could have replaced Stannis with a candelabra falling on Renly and we would be where we are now. Including the red wedding. He's essential to the plot, he's not essential to the story. It is not, like you seem to think, that you can replace most major characters like that. Most of them have motivations which are essential to the story and drive it forwards, Stannis doesn't really.
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That makes no sense. Heard of the butterfly effect? If Renly had simply die of an accident, Highgarden could have kept out of the war altogether, they could have joined the North, they could stake their claim behind a hypothetical claimant hostile to House Lannister, none of which would lead to RW. It's precisely because of the type of man Stannis is - he makes people uncomfortable with his unyielding sense of duty and justice - that makes the Western Alliance.

You are within your rights to dislike the character, but to claim him irrelevant to the story and the plot is nonsensical. The same sense of duty made him turn up at the wall and stop the Watch from being massacred.
 
Stannis was a weak character. Not sure if he is as weakly portrayed in the books but on screen, a waste of air time. Nevetheless he played a key role in bringing out the best out of other characters and pushing the story along.

What used to make me laugh was people getting upset over his death or lack thereof, he served the role he needed to and was dispensed of as soon as he had served it. Utterly useless character in his own right but a useful plot device for the author/directors.

Euron for me as a character has more potential but is coming across even worse than Stannis at this moment in time (TV wise).
 
Raees said:
Stannis was a weak character. Not sure if he is as weakly portrayed in the books but on screen, a waste of air time. Nevetheless he played a key role in bringing out the best out of other characters and pushing the story along.

What used to make me laugh was people getting upset over his death or lack thereof, he served the role he needed to and was dispensed of as soon as he had served it. Utterly useless character in his own right but a useful plot device for the author/directors.

Euron for me as a character has more potential but is coming across even worse than Stannis at this moment in time (TV wise).
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Yeah there was really no need for a big dramatic death scene for Stannis. By time Brianne found him, he was already a beaten, broken man. Many of his troops deserted, the rest killed or captured or scattered after the battle, his family dead, his claims to the throne gone, Red Tits gone, deserted by the God of Light, all the drama had already happened to him, his death was just the end and was more important to the future Mrs. Tormund's character.
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
That makes no sense. Heard of the butterfly effect? If Renly had simply die of an accident, Highgarden could have kept out of the war altogether, they could have joined the North, they could stake their claim behind a hypothetical claimant hostile to House Lannister, none of which would lead to RW. It's precisely because of the type of man Stannis is - he makes people uncomfortable with his unyielding sense of duty and justice - that makes the Western Alliance.

You are within your rights to dislike the character, but to claim him irrelevant to the story and the plot is nonsensical. The same sense of duty made him turn up at the wall and stop the Watch from being massacred.
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How do I argue he is unimportant to th plot? I just layed out why he isn't. But there's a difference between plot and story.

And Highgarden doesn't join the Lannisters in fear of if Stannis, but because they seek influence. They always tried to join the winning side. When Renly wasn't there anymore, the Lannisters were the winning side, so they joined. It doesn't matter how Renly died.

Also, I don't dislike Stannis. I like him and his arc a lot, actually
 
Sky1981 said:
A question to got viewers in this thread :

What kind of ending you wish to see?

As in happy ending? Bad ending? Hanging ending? Gray ending?

As for me I'd love a happy ending where the good guys win, regardless of how mainstream that is. I want a show with proper ending instead or a gray ending, although happy in got universe isn't actually Cinderella like.
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Jon and Dany can't just win; too obvious. Somehow, Dany will fail...likely as she loses her mind after her dragons are killed. Jon will become the new Night's King, and we find out they're just a swell bunch of guys that are misunderstood. Sansa will win the game of thrones, and rule over the ashes left after the wars. Just like Varys said her mentor, Littlefinger, would do, and as Tyrion somewhat predicted she would.

Oh, and Jamie kills Cercie by blowing up half of King's Landing with the rest of the wildfire hidden under the city by the Mad King as Dany's army encroaches. This happens before Dany gets there, and is why she is walking through a destroyed throne room with snow falling in her vision in the tower of the undying. Winter has come.
 
Sky1981 said:
A question to got viewers in this thread :

What kind of ending you wish to see?

As in happy ending? Bad ending? Hanging ending? Gray ending?

As for me I'd love a happy ending where the good guys win, regardless of how mainstream that is. I want a show with proper ending instead or a gray ending, although happy in got universe isn't actually Cinderella like.
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A grey ending for sure. I've mentioned my ideal ending before actually.

There's clearly going to be a War for the Dawn 2.0 - all this stuff about the Azor Ahai prophecy, the prince/princess who was promised, it's all going to come down to someone with a flaming Valryian steel sword leading a huge army against the White Walkers. It'd be silly to have the Walkers destroy everything, even if that would be the ultimate Game of Thrones surprise, but it'd also be silly if Jon Snow was able to lead the Westeros army to victory. There has be a middle ground established somewhere. Say the Westeros army wins but Jon goes the way of Benjen, i.e. not quite human or wight, I'd be happy with that. But instead of having a benevolent streak as Benjen does, Jon has to lead the Walkers back to the Land of Always Winter and live out his days there. If you remember back to season two, the Walkers clearly had an arrangement with Craster to harvest his sons for their army, it's clear they're capable of some kind of negotiation. I'd imagine some kind of reluctant pact is agreed between the humans and the White Walkers, similar to The Pact agreed between the humans and the Children, whereby they accept the many losses on both sides of the war but agree to live separately. I imagine the Walkers will basically ransack Westeros and reduce the society to an even more primitive state than it currently is before this agreement is established by the final notable figures in the series, with most of the major characters either dead or scattered across the map. Once the war is over, I imagine there will basically be nobody left to rule, and that most family lines will have been broken. So the remaining common folk who've not been wiped out just nominate a random child, with a tenuous connection to the Starks or something, to rule the country because they literally can't find anyone else to raise this shattered society. But then another half of the common people challenge this decision because they think another young child should be the ruler of Westeros, and they declare war for a newly fashioned Iron Throne. So "the wheel" keeps turning and turning. Cut to black.
 
Wednesday at Stoke said:
The story is that Oberyn was extensively educated in different poisons, some slow acting some quick to kill, we'd assume he passed on some of that knowledge to his daughters. There's no way to know if Euron will die immediately if touched by a poison laced knife.
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From the trailer of the next episode:
Euron is seeing walking around Kings Landing with his "gift". There is no way the poison will act so slow so as to kill him after so long
 
fcbforever said:
There's a strong case to be made for some things to be just left unexplained. One thing that ruined the Star Wars prequels was Lucas "explaining" the force. One thing that made LOTR so great is that however far you go in this universe, there's still some things unexplained and intentionally so. Tom Bombadil is one of those eternal mysterial figures which is very much loved on the basis that we never got an explanation what, or who, he is.

People just seem to have an obsession with Martin being such an exceptional storywriter (He isn't by the way, he's just an exceptional world builder while not being nearly as good as a storywriter as, for example, J.R.R. Tolkien or even someone like Joane K. Rowling) that there is always an underlying, deeper motivation for anything. Probably not in this case, the walkers are likely just a McGuffing to set plot and story in motion and I'm fine with that. Giving them some deeper motivation just takes the fear and diminishes the threat they pose and that would be a bad thing.
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Maybe, but theyve teased that WW arent out right savages:
-The Nights King was a human who was turned
-Theyve had a deal with Craster for his baby boys
-They clearly arent just out right savages as seen by the demonstration to Jon what theyre capable of
-They shown elements of WW but kept it mystery.

I can see it being revealed they arent truly badguys as expected and are actually marching as their own revenge as the humans must have done something to them. The ultimate badguys are the humans (as is the case in the world right now). Humans destroy peace, humans destroy land, humans break a pact (hell Gilly keeping lil Sam baby broke a pact that was in place)

But I agree, some elements of mystery remaining is a good thing.
 
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