Television Game of Thrones (TV) • The watch has ended

harms said:
Brilliant episode, the battle from Jon's perspective was shot fantastically.

Although I have a complain - why the feck didn't Sansa tell Jon that she already summoned the army of the Vale? It's not like it was a surprise to us (or to anyone bar the bastards, really) - we already saw her writing a letter in the last episode. It would've, I don't know, save a few thousands lives or her loyal supporters? I guess it's wasn't worth it, better be a spoiled child and run away without saying anything.

Too bad that Ramsey and Wumwum had to die :( Both were among my favorites.
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Who's Wumwum? Is he the giant?

As for Sansa, she's much more interesting with this evil side to her. Have a feeling this will only further develop in the coming seasons.
 
Any problems I had with the episode were ones that existed going into it anyway. The fact that we knew Littlefinger would arrive to save the day, the one-dimensional nature of Ramsey's character, the fact that we knew Jon Snow wouldn't die as he only came back to life a few episodes ago, etc. I can understand if things like that sapped away a bit of the tension, even if some of them were necessary for the overarching story to work.

Judging the episode on it's own though, it was as typically excellent as GOT battle episodes tend to be. Not sure if it was as good as Blackwater (which was near perfect TV) or Hardhome (which benefitted from being lean and unexpected) but it was definitely better than the battle at the wall.
 
Cheesy said:
It isn't Deus Ex Machina if it's actually been foreshadowed, set-up, established and makes sense. I'm not sure people understand the meaning of the term.
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Yeah it's more John Wayne riding in with the 7th cavalry to save the day back 1950's cowboy movies.
 
How many men did Littlefinger have do you reckon?
 
Man of Leisure said:
As for Sansa, she's much more interesting with this evil side to her. Have a feeling this will only further develop in the coming seasons.
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Agree. I think we've seen enough of both Sansa and Theon as victims at this point. Their characters developing beyond that will improve the show.
 
harms said:
They don't need to rely on him showing or not showing. If Sansa knows that he is approaching (or at least that he says that he's approaching) they can wait for him and then attack together, eliminating the threat of him dumping them in the most important moment. Jon attacked this early (and I mean the battle, not the actual burst to save Rickon) because he knew that he has no more resources and time works for Ramsey, who is sitting in the castle with food, water and heat. If he was aware of the possible reinforcements he would've planned differently, saving hundreds or even thousands of lives.
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Do we know whether Littlefinger ever responded to Sansa's letter? How certain was she he would show up? She did mention to Jon she would kill herself rather than go back to Ramsey. Might have been a act, might not.

It will be interesting to see Jon's reaction to Littlefinger.
 
Oh, and another matter - I fully expected Ramsey to crucify and skin Rickon right before Jon's eyes - with them showing a close-up of a burning body right beforehand. Was a little disappointed, although it was still fun
 
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harms said:
They don't need to rely on him showing or not showing. If Sansa knows that he is approaching (or at least that he says that he's approaching) they can wait for him and then attack together, eliminating the threat of him dumping them in the most important moment. Jon attacked this early (and I mean the battle, not the actual burst to save Rickon) because he knew that he has no more resources and time works for Ramsey, who is sitting in the castle with food, water and heat. If he was aware of the possible reinforcements he would've planned differently, saving hundreds or even thousands of lives.
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Yeah, but your still assuming Littlefinger doing what he says he's going to do which isn't a given.

Given his character in the show you can't rely on him. Even if you know he's turning up you can't guarantee he's going to fight for you, or if his forces won't act like the Stanley's at Bosworth.

I agree that what Littlefinger was going to do was made quite obvious, but I think Sansa's decision was reasonable in-keeping with Littlefinger's in-show behaviour and her knowledge of his scheming.
 
JustAFan said:
Do we know whether Littlefinger ever responded to Sansa's letter? How certain was she he would show up? She did mention to Jon she would kill herself rather than go back to Ramsey. Might have been a act, might not.

It will be interesting to see Jon's reaction to Littlefinger.
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NinjaFletch said:
Yeah, but your still assuming Littlefinger doing what he says he's going to do which isn't a given.

Given his character in the show you can't rely on him. Even if you know he's turning up you can't guarantee he's going to fight for you, or if his forces won't act like the Stanley's at Bosworth.

I agree that what Littlefinger was going to do was made quite obvious, but I think Sansa's decision was reasonable in-keeping with Littlefinger's in-show behaviour and her knowledge of his scheming.
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Still, it wasn't her decision to make - it's a gamble, of course, but she should've told it do Jon, Davos etc, highlighting that Littlefinger is not to be trusted, obviously. And here she was a few minutes away from arriving to the slaughterhouse with both of her brothers murdered and every loyal (to her) Northerner dead, while she is left with traitors in the castle and Littlefinger's unreliable army
 
Littlefinger arriving was well done and I agree, Sansa really couldnt / shouldnt tell Jon about him because youre basically relying on somebody who has shown to have played all sides including betraying Ned when it suited him (and recently what she did to Sansa - where she made a good point, either he didnt know and hes an idiot, or he did which is worse)

And even if she does tell Jon, it doesnt change much. The whole point was that they were planning to not charge and have Ramsay charge at them to give them the advantage. That all went out the window once Rickon was killed, Jon snapped and the rest had to charge to protect Jon otherwise hes a goner too.

Also even if Sansa was preggers, theres no way it survives her jump with Theon last season lol

Fully Fledged said:
He found the wooden animal he made for her in the remains of a fire. They way he looked at her at the end he knows.
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do.ob said:
He found the girl's charred toy stag in a grave/pyre, I think that's sufficient proof. They also showed us Melisandre through his eyes. Probably gonna try to kill her or something
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Yep, but I meant more in terms of him confronting her that episode and playing with his mind before the battle. Kinda glad it didnt. Though Im expecting Davos to kill her soon.
 
I think that this played out the only way LF would let it. Miminal loses for the Knight of the Vale and everyone knowing he saved the day.
He gets the biggest return for the smallest expenditure.
 
The battle was brilliant! Superbly paced & enjoyable. I expected Littlefinger to come and rescue them but they really dragged it out & I thought that was going to be the end for the Starks. Felt a bit like a last minute United winner when the smug bastard showed up. Loved it!

Ramsay's death was well done as well, deserved it the cnut. That said, he was a brilliant character. Finally Sansa's grown up this season, her smile as she left Ramsay to die was a nice touch for all the misery she's been through to date.

Even Mereen was entertaining. The dragon CGI was glorious. Daenerys not fecking around and ending up putting down the rebellion and securing ships was good to see. Hope she now leaves this slave bullshit behind and makes her move on Kings Landing.

Starks now seemingly have the North back. Littlefinger is still playing everyone like a game of chess. A fantastic episode, gripping from start to end.
 
Also reading some of the previous pages, think people need to really learn about what a deus ex machina is
And what filler means... lol
 
There was another subtle bit in the final Sansa/Ramsey scene. There was a moment where she ever so slightly started to turn away and then turned back to watch him get attacked. Maybe it was the movement of the camera not her moving to turn away, but the effect was quite good.
 
Cheesy said:
It isn't Deus Ex Machina if it's actually been foreshadowed, set-up, established and makes sense. I'm not sure people understand the meaning of the term.
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Exactly. I mean we literally saw Sansa write the letter to Littlefinger. The criticism you could have is that LF coming to save the day was fairly obvious but regardless the amount of tension in the episode more than made up for anything.
 
Interesting to see what Jon does. He's got the North back but he knows of the threat from the White Walkers. Surely he's not got the army to defeat them without some help.....

I reckon the pact between Theon & Daenerys foreshadows what we might see with the Starks & her. She lets him/Bran/Sansa be the Warden of the North in return for swearing allegiance to her as Queen. Also would free up her army & dragons to fight the White Walkers - assuming she takes the throne

Edit - this doesn't take into consideration what plans Littlefinger has. I'm sure he's got something deceptive planned
 
Fully Fledged said:
I think that this played out the only way LF would let it. Miminal loses for the Knight of the Vale and everyone knowing he saved the day.
He gets the biggest return for the smallest expenditure.
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I don't know about that. Would it be remotely possible to time such an assault perfectly with medieval communication and intelligence options? It's not like you can hide a couple of hundred / thousand mounted knights.
 
do.ob said:
I don't know about that. Would it be remotely possible to time such an assault perfectly with medieval communication and intelligence options? It's not like you can hide a couple of hundred / thousand mounted knights.
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Sure you could. Stannis did it and on the Wildlings home turf even. Plus as you mentioned with medieval communications and intelligence options, it could work in your favor in hiding your army. Likely he did not plan on exactly a last minute save, exactly like that, but he could definitely have planned on holding back to see how the battle went and then striking at the right moment, that actually is pretty sound military strategy.
 
do.ob said:
I don't know about that. Would it be remotely possible to time such an assault perfectly with medieval communication and intelligence options? It's not like you can hide a couple of hundred / thousand mounted knights.
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Depends doesn't it. In the real medieval world you wouldn't be able to march an entire massive army from the Eyrie to Winterfell without anybody knowing, nor would you be able to camp close enough to effect the battle without both sides being informed by the scouting networks they'd put out to inform them of stuff like that.

If you're reasonably happy that Littlefinger got as far as he did with his army without anyone knowing, then I don't think its a massive stretch to argue they were hidden 1km round the corner ready to save the day when both armies had bloodied themselves a bit especially given the mountainous terrain.
 
ha_rooney said:
Interesting to see what Jon does. He's got the North back but he knows of the threat from the White Walkers. Surely he's not got the army to defeat them without some help.....

I reckon the pact between Theon & Daenerys foreshadows what we might see with the Starks & her. She lets him/Bran/Sansa be the Warden of the North in return for swearing allegiance to her as Queen. Also would free up her army & dragons to fight the White Walkers - assuming she takes the throne

Edit - this doesn't take into consideration what plans Littlefinger has. I'm sure he's got something deceptive planned
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Nor Varys and what is current plan is. Surely that must be something big and in favour of Dany.
 
Sylar said:
Nor Varys and what is current plan is. Surely that must be something big and in favour of Dany.
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Going on the basis I think everyone is now a potential ally for Daenerys, could it be that Varys has gone to Dorne to get their help? They hate the Lannisters but I can't remember how they view the Targeryens (I'm sure Oberyn's sister was married to one of them). They've not been mentioned since episode 1/2, but I think they still have a role to play.

Although, I'd be perfectly happy if we never see them again.
 
Action and production quality was through the roof and brilliant, but it was too predictable and kinda cheesy in some parts for a GoT episode. Don't get me wrong, loved the episode, but reading people saying how this is the best battle scene in TV and Movie history is really being over the top. :lol:
 
evil_geko said:
Action and production quality was through the roof and brilliant, but it was too predictable and kinda cheesy in some parts for a GoT episode. Don't get me wrong, loved the episode, but reading people saying how this is the best battle scene in TV and Movie history is really being over the top. :lol:
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I'd agree with this.
 
evil_geko said:
Action and production quality was through the roof and brilliant, but it was too predictable and kinda cheesy in some parts for a GoT episode. Don't get me wrong, loved the episode, but reading people saying how this is the best battle scene in TV and Movie history is really being over the top. :lol:
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Agreed, they need to re-watch Saving Private Ryan and Braveheart. And although it's been a while since I've seen it, I'm sure there were better battle scenes in Band of Brothers as well. Take nothing away from GoT, thoroughly enjoyed that episode.
 
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Man of Leisure said:
Agreed, they need to re-watch Saving Private Ryan and Braveheart. And although it's been a while since I've seen it, I'm sure there were better battle scenes in Band of Brothers as well. Take nothing away from GoT, thoroughly enjoyed that episode.
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Braveheart at points was awful mate. If you look at the background you can see some of the worst sword fighting on film. I honestly mean that, it's terrible.
 
Only bit I picked up on the 2nd viewing - Sansa rode away before Ramsey said that the hounds hadn't been fed for a week.

Ruined the whole episode, 1/10 etc.
 
From a production and filmmaking standpoint that was hands down some of the best stuff ever committed to film. Period. Scale, technical chops, inventive - magnificent. Should win the relevant Emmys right now.

But, the reason ASOFAI is so reverred is because it isn't all Hollywood and cliches. And that episode's plot points - outside of the glorious direction - could have been written by Michael Bay. And there is no greater insult in entertainment.
 
Daenarys is going to take over Westeros isn't she ? I mean with everything she's got now... It's probably the one episode where I have zero bad thing to say about her, she was pretty badass.
 
Still don't like any scene with Daenarys in it.

The Ricon death as well as Snow's army struggling only to be saved by Little Finger's late rescue, were both super predictable. But the battle of the bastards was still hugely satisfying due to how well it was shot and directed, and obviously, Ramsey's face being beaten to pulp.
 
kouroux said:
Daenarys is going to take over Westeros isn't she ? I mean with everything she's got now... It's probably the one episode where I have zero bad thing to say about her, she was pretty badass.
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Considering that she has more ships than most of the Westeros houses have men it's quite possible :lol:
I really hope that she invades in the next episode and they won't left it until the next year
 
Beachryan said:
From a production and filmmaking standpoint that was hands down some of the best stuff ever committed to film. Period. Scale, technical chops, inventive - magnificent. Should win the relevant Emmys right now.

But, the reason ASOFAI is so reverred is because it isn't all Hollywood and cliches. And that episode's plot points - outside of the glorious direction - could have been written by Michael Bay. And there is no greater insult in entertainment.
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Is also true. I do wonder how much deviation there is from the books in this respect, although this obviously isn't the place to discuss that.
 
forrie_x said:
Only bit I picked up on the 2nd viewing - Sansa rode away before Ramsey said that the hounds hadn't been fed for a week.

Ruined the whole episode, 1/10 etc.
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Just assume someone else told her :p:lol::nervous:. Especially since when she asked where he was, he was already tied up in the kennels, so the plan to feed him to the dogs does not seem to be hers.
 
I'm going with the theory that the Lord of Light is protecting Jon hence his death defying antics today, that was mentioned by Mellissandra in the episode, so its not a huge stretch (who am I kidding, its just plot armour).
 
Great Episode. One of the most enjoyable one's. Yeah, The knights of the vale were pretty expected with that little foreshadowing and it was mostly a question of when and not if, but it was still beautifully captured with the music and the cinematography. I'll miss Ramsey though, he's not a caricature like many people seemed to think. This episode showed just how cunning and clever he is as well (More clever than Jon Snow at least). What Snow did with his "1 vs 1" speech, he upped it 10 fold and drew Snow completely in with the Rickon play. Really great acting too. Not too much attachment to Rickon, but with the last son of Ned Stark dead, it's a bummer. Wished it was Ghost having a few sausages rather than the hounds, but apart from that, a proper straightforward battle scene which was an excellent watch. It may not be as great on further viewings and like some here mentioned, it did have a few plotholes, but it was genuinely enjoyable. I just love how a bit of music (Or sometimes the lack of it), just adds that little bit extra to a scene.

Also, I don't know why but I found the scene with the Greyjoys and Tyrion and Dany very charming. Tyrion speaking of his disdain for Theon and Yara, with her slightly alluring remarks for Dany and her expressions :drool:. There was great chemistry in the scene.

1) It is so easy for Daenyrs to turn a little mad and abandon her principles. It needed a timely reminder from Tyrion not to become like her father. Wonder if she will go mad if Tyrion decides to leave.

2) Is Sansa really pregnant ? I can't remember an episode where it was explicitly mentioned apart from the numerous hints. She also had a great huge fall in last season's finale.

3) Littlefinger probably wants to marry Sansa now and proclaim himself warden of the north ?
 
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