Easy question for me - Daley Blind.
Future planning - Replacing Carrick
- Thread starter Pexbo
- Start date
I wish it was that easy to compare players. Schneiderlin is nowhere near where Matic was when they won the title. Schweinsteiger seems to get too much injury last season so if he's fit then it's good thing. Herrera doesn't know how to dictate a tempo and his performance has been declined since last season. Is Mata going to be in Jose's midfield plan? Clearly players like Schneiderlin, Herrera and Mata are still nowhere near the level or has no proof to have the level ability to be near with Matic, Fabregas and Oscar when they won the league.
Is McCarthy still on the radar? Or has he not progressed at Everton?
When we ”replaced” Keano with Carrick, there was a lot of talk about square pegs and round holes. That didn’t turn out too bad, perhaps it’s time to go for a more physical DM/box-to-box player instead of a deep-lying playmaker. I’d say with Jose that could well happen. In that case he’d have Schneiderlin + the new CM for those tougher matches, which I think he’d go for.
Obligatory bump of Sean Goss. whats the latest with him?
He was injured and missed the end of season so i hope he is Ok to travel with the squad on pre season tour. This guy needs to make his EPL debut this season!
He was injured and missed the end of season so i hope he is Ok to travel with the squad on pre season tour. This guy needs to make his EPL debut this season!
If course Schneiderlin isn't where Matic was; he's been playing under Van Gaal who clearly pigeon holed him into such a limited role that he's looked like a poor man's Mikel this year.
Herrera's performances likewise have declined because his manager completely stifled what he does best. If I recall there was an interview where he basically said he had to completely change his natural game (for the worse in my view) just to get back in the team.
Mata is the big question mark. If Jose puts faith in him in the Oscar role I have no doubt he'll shine; however I have a feeling Rooney's salary and position as captain will mean he gets another year being given a chance in any role that'll take him.
Overall though if we're binning Herrera, Mata & Schneiderlin in favour of the next flavour of the month CM, then we may as well sign 9-10 new players because these three all have the raw ability to be key player's under a great manager.
So what's the point using Schneiderlin, Mata, Schweinsteiger and Herrea in the same way as Mourinho did to Matic, Fabregas, Ramirez and Oscar if the level are no where near and even the role or position, playing style, strength and weakness are different.
Because Mourinho will get them playing to at least the same level.
Schneiderlin has the physicality, tackling ability and stamina to match Matic, he just hasn't shown it under LVG. Mata is more creative and a better all round player than Oscar, as his stats show; he's also significantly improved his pressing and ability to track back. Herrera despite being a different player than Fabregas in my view showed enough 14/15 to suggest he can play that role and score/assist.
The point is they'd be used in a versatile 4-2-3-1 with us having several options to tailer our team dependant on the opposition.
I think we will be taking a great leap of faith if our midfield plans rest on these three going up a level even under Mourinho, yes he is special but he is no magician. At least one starting midfielder has to be brought in specifically a more athletic and agile Carrick type.
I'd rather us to be relegated than have that horrible twunt anywhere around the club. He's so disgusting he's almost in Suarez's league. If someone offered us the choice of Cattermole and Busquets, I'd opt for the former.
I agree with the idea that we don't have to replace Carrick with a like-for-like, but we seriously need to replace his playmaking in the team.
Right on and we do have a couple of players that we can mould into the holding role in Schneiderlin and Fosu-Mensah but no one who can do what Carrick does on the ball, to any standard, who can be trusted to operate in a deeper role. This is especially important if we plan to play on the counter again.
I disagree. Particularly if Rooney/Blind move into the CM role as I expect; we'll have Mata, Herrera, Schneiderlin, Schweinsteiger, Rooney & Blind competing for 3 positions. That's before thinking about any younger player's (TFM for instance could easily be deployed as a more technically gifted Zouma) or if Carrick signs for 1 more year.
In fact I'd go one step further and say CM is by far out strongest position in terms of depth.
I actually liked Blind in midfield in the first half of his debut season but let's not digress, we have depth in numbers I agree but we have/had only one player that can control the tempo of the match like Carrick does. If we field a midfield duo of Schneiderlin and Schweinsteiger we'd need more from our #10 creatively which could leave us in a position of being fecked if he is marked out of the game. Rooney, Herrera and Blind don't really possess the all round quality you would expect from a top team midfield and Schneiderlin will have to step up massively to be anything close to what we require of him. So, as you see, there are too many question marks on each of our current midfielders for us to optimistically hope that a change in manager will we see an instant improvement in all of them. If we brought in a top class performer or a talented young player on the brink we can field the other midfielders around him but as things stand all of our CMs are lacking something in terms of quality and consistency for them to be relied on for a title charge.
What concerns me is that as pairs there is always something lacking- play Schneiderlin and Carrick the midfield is lacking in technique and agility, a Rooney-Carrick midfield could be overrun, a Scheneiderlin-Herrera pair lacks brains and poise, a Rooney-Schneiderlin duo will have disastrous short passing and possibly lead to concession of possession in deep, dangerous areas whilst Schweinsteiger is too much of a crock to be seriously relied on. Bring in a Gundogun or prime Toure, for argument sack, and you can try to mould Schneiderlin into an enforcer or play them alongside a TFM. Notice that I'm leaving out the #10 because I believe that if ou have the base of the midfield covered then what the #10 brings is a bonus and they can be allowed to drift in and out of games like they normally do but if you play a flat duo at the base of the midfield then you either sink or fly on the effectiveness and form of the #10. We clearly lack that #8, imo.
We have the quantity in midfield options but not the quality. There aren't a lot of direct Carrick replacements around, I think Weigl is the best option but obviously unobtainable right now, so maybe Blind would get the chance, unless Jose looks to add a proper creative #8 and employs a ball winner like Kante or Diarra.
Carricks ability to dictate the play in my view has been a little overrated, particularly in recent years. I have no doubt Blind or Schweinsteiger could bring the same qualities under Mourinho.
We would need a lot of creativity from our #10, however let's not forget that we could well have Martial, Ibrahimovich, Mata & another top class forward as our front 4... If Mata was marked out by a couple of player's our other attackers would have a field day.
My view is that LVG had the majority of our team under-performing, particularly the likes of Herrera, Schneiderlin, Schweinsteiger & Mata.
If we are to believe those player's aren't good enough, we may as well have given Van Gaal another few hundred million to spend. Jose getting Schneiderlin playing like Matic last season isn't just a hope, it's the entire reason we've got him.
Again the whole reason of bringing in Mourinho is for him to get much more our of the squad. If a young midfielder in the Martial category was available or an already World Class talent like Pogba; fair enough you buy them and find a way to slot them in later. However most of the ones mentioned coincidentally are already playing under great managers. You put Pogba or Saul in a Van Gaal team and we'd be saying they need replacing too.
Almost every duo in world football lacks something, if you play Schweinsteiger-Schneiderlin then you expect your #10 to take the creative burden. If you play Herrera-Schneiderlin you'd expect the #10 to drop deep when Herrera's positional indiscipline takes effect. If Blind plays the deeper role I'd say Herrera & Schneiderlin ahead would be better as they have more energy to compensate.
I don't think the #10 is a bonus, the 3 roles together have to be balanced, as you'll never get 2 players who together have everything (Keane and Scholes were the exception).
If Rooney & Carrick leave and Blind continues in defence I concede that we could use a midfielder. However I don't see that happening and I'd prefer our budget is focused on a couple of top class attacker who'll cost north of £80m and a top class defender who'll cost north of £35m. Hell I'd even be looking at a RB (maybe one of Madrids two could be tempted away) before a CM.
Some people said Schneiderlin is box to box and he shouldn't play as a defensive midfielder. Some people said Schneiderlin is defensive midfielder and should play alongside Herrera. Funny how people has different opinions here. But I think Schneiderlin is just an average player who is at best at Southampton level. Physicality is weaker, skinnier and shorter than Matic. Tackling gives away a lot of fouls. Stamina he is so lazy because he doesn't track his own players, his positioning is poor, he is just ball watching and jogging during counter attack and lazy to drop back and very inconsistent in a good things. Being good with Southampton doesn't guarantee him being good in a giant club with giant expectation like Manchester United. He is basically has no proof if he can match the strength of Matic.
Mata is a type of player who is lazy to get involved but can sometime be effective in production. Having so many poor games but can still scoring goals from set pieces. I ain't buying stats if the player ability doesn't suit Mourinho's style. Again another player with no proof if he can match the expectation to what Mourinho wanted from Oscar.
Clearly you just said Herrera is different player so how can Mourinho used him like what he did to Fabregas.
Mourinho is not a one only formation manager. He's been playing different kind of formations and also different kind of system. It's not like we will play the same system as Matic-Fabregas-Oscar at Chelsea.
Fair enough but I still think you're being too optimistic regarding the extent to which certain players will improve. I will still contend that for our midfield to reach the levels we desire we need a world class perforner to partner with one of our journeyman midfielders.
Jose is a top manager but not a miracle worker, Herrera may well see game time as the AM in the midfield if we play 4-3-3 but he is too careless and ill disciplined for the deeper role and doesn't have the passing game of a playmaker, and I just think Schneiderlin looks like a deer in the headlights, the club might simply be too big for him.
My view is if we hadn't signed Herrera, Schneiderlin & Schweinsteiger and they hadn't therefore been so misused under LVG, we'd have a thread on each of them here whereby the vast majority would say they're what we need.
I think people are already forgetting the awful football LVG had us serving up and its caused them to believe our squad is 5th on quality. However this is contradictory... You can't have an awful manager who employs poor tactics and then at the same time believe that one of the best managers in the world would get no more out of our team than he would. We might as well have kept LVG if he dragged such a poor quality squad to joint 4th.
Think some people are severely underestimating the players that we have at the club, and equally the restrictive way in which they were instructed to play under Van Gaal. They all have a lot more to offer. A year ago you would struggle to find anyone that wasn't excited about the prospect of signing Morgan Schneiderlin or the development of Ander Herrera - they haven't just become bad players overnight.
I honestly don't see us investing in a replacement for Carrick right now, unless a player that we just can't ignore becomes available and wants to join us (i.e a Pogba/Saul/Veratti etc). Even then, we would have to move players on, and I just can't see it. Many people will want to see the back of Fellaini, but I wouldn't and I'm not sure Mourinho would either. He's shown his effectiveness on numerous occasions this season.
Realistically, we have three midfield positions this season, and multiple options for each role (depending upon opposition and how we want to play):
#6 - Schneiderlin / Fosu-Mensah / Blind / Schweinsteiger
#8 - Herrera / Rooney / Fellaini / Schweinsteiger / Schneiderlin
#10 - Rooney / Herrera / Fellaini / Mata / Pereira / Januzaj
As Rooney has improved in a deeper role as the season progressed, I'd expect he'll be deployed as such, potentially leaving space for an incoming #10 should Pereira and/or Januzaj go out on loan. I also think we'll be looking for versatility in the transfer market, a #10 that can also play wide such as Oscar and Willian were capable under Mourinho. This is where I think James Rodriguez or Sadio Mane could be useful aquisitions, while there are countless other (less feasible) targets for this role.
I think we will look to replace Carrick by bringing in another attacking midfielder and using the squad that we have to cover Carrick's absence. Hell, we may even keep hold of Michael for another season yet. The strengthening should come at centre back, and at the top end of the pitch imo.
I honestly don't see us investing in a replacement for Carrick right now, unless a player that we just can't ignore becomes available and wants to join us (i.e a Pogba/Saul/Veratti etc). Even then, we would have to move players on, and I just can't see it. Many people will want to see the back of Fellaini, but I wouldn't and I'm not sure Mourinho would either. He's shown his effectiveness on numerous occasions this season.
Realistically, we have three midfield positions this season, and multiple options for each role (depending upon opposition and how we want to play):
#6 - Schneiderlin / Fosu-Mensah / Blind / Schweinsteiger
#8 - Herrera / Rooney / Fellaini / Schweinsteiger / Schneiderlin
#10 - Rooney / Herrera / Fellaini / Mata / Pereira / Januzaj
As Rooney has improved in a deeper role as the season progressed, I'd expect he'll be deployed as such, potentially leaving space for an incoming #10 should Pereira and/or Januzaj go out on loan. I also think we'll be looking for versatility in the transfer market, a #10 that can also play wide such as Oscar and Willian were capable under Mourinho. This is where I think James Rodriguez or Sadio Mane could be useful aquisitions, while there are countless other (less feasible) targets for this role.
I think we will look to replace Carrick by bringing in another attacking midfielder and using the squad that we have to cover Carrick's absence. Hell, we may even keep hold of Michael for another season yet. The strengthening should come at centre back, and at the top end of the pitch imo.
It doesn't work like that, it's never ever so simple, for instance Schweinsteiger is very injury prone, no one can undo that, and Schneiderlin has looked like the club is too big for him regardless of who is manager, some players are not cut out for the spotlight that comes with a club like United. As for Herrera, his faults are not going away under Jose, he is not a Fabregaqs or Scholes that can play at the base, Jose might well get more out of him as he was truly neutered under LvG, but it won't be in the role you are putting him in. This squad limped to 5th in the oddest PL season ever, it's going to be much stronger next season as all our rivals strengthen, we need investment all across the team to become a better squad, this set of midfielders are not going to magically improve to the level required just down to Jose.
Agreed, now he's been a mainstay in the team his confidence will be up. I see no reason he could not replace Carrick. Excellent passer of the ball and his composure has increased dramatically.
Again I'd be happy to sign a young midfielder with Martial like potential or a superstar like Pogba; however most of the names mentioned are flavour of the month midfielders who've done less than Herrera/Schneiderlin, let alone Schweinsteiger. Likewise the cost of a Pogba type signing may have negative ramifications on our budget for an attacker (we certainly wouldn't be spending £70m on Pogba and then £70m on Griezmann for example).
In terms of young midfielders they aren't likely to be any better than what we have in the short term, although if they could improve and replace Schweinsteiger that'd be a good thing.
The current crop being discussed are the likes of Gomes, Kante, Tielemans & Joao Mario, all of whom wouldn't make an immediate impact and then the likes of Gundogun who can be relied upon less than Schweinsteiger.
Who're we really talking about who's going to be a better passer that Blind or a better tackler than the Schneiderlin we saw at So'ton, or provide the leadership and quality of Schweinsteiger (albeit not for 50 games a year)?
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Kante would be an upgrade on Schneiderlin, as would Krychowiak and Diarra, 2 of them are better on the ball and all of them are better physically and positionally, whether they have the balls he lacks to step up is of course an unknown factor, but their attributes are greater.
Joao Mario is much more reliable on the ball than Herrera if played as an actual CM, and if Jose can tap into him mentally Gomes potential is huge as technically and physically he's ideal. You can't match Schweinsteiger's experience but his legs have gone and he's injury prone, I'd rather keep Carrick as the old head we drop in for 20 minutes in a tough away.
I think Kante will struggle in a team that is expected to do more than Leicester. I think his passing and decision making would be shown up spectacularly. Likewise Diarra hasn't played in a top league for years and at 31 he's a huge risk.
Joao Mario might be better on the ball in the Portuguese League, but in a tougher and more physical league it'd be a huge risk if he were coming in as a first choice; likewise Gomes. Although these two might fit my role of young players who over the next 2-3 years could grow into the role (which I wouldn't be against).
Krychowiak I have to say I haven't seen play so I can't comment. Although I don't think he's been particularly highly rated until the last around 6 months, despite him being 26.
None of these player's are a definite upgrade and all come with their own big risks. In fact I'd say none have the pedigree Herrera had when he arrived and none had the experience of English football that Schneiderlin had when he arrived.
The last thing we need is another CM who'll be decent but nothing more.
If I were Jose I'd be targeting other far more pressing areas this season whilst keeping tabs on the younger midfielders mentioned to see their progress over the next 12 months.
I don't see why Kante would struggle at all, Leicester had to adapt throughout the season as teams got wise to their counter attacks, they won a lot of the latter games 1-0 and Kante was a huge part of that, especially in his ability to drive the ball out from deep to relieve pressure, something none of our CM's can do as none of them have pace or are good at running with the ball.
The argument here seems to be stick with mediocrity because the players listed might not be able to step up, but that will just see us tread water with players that haven't shown they can be at the level we want. I am also not sure how many players you are expecting Jose to buy in the other areas, I'm thinking 1 CB, a free striker and maybe a RW unless he tries top use Rashford or Memphis there. That's only 3 players, we definitely should have the money for a quality CM addition.
Players like Carrick, Alonso and Busquets are not easy to find, players who are so important for the teams offense and defense. I don't think it would be right to go looking for a deep lying player like Carrick because a like for like replacement hardly ever happens in football.
We should be looking at players who can compliment what we already have, esp someone who can compliment Schneiderlin. In that regard I think a player like Koke or Verratti would be ideal.
We should be looking at players who can compliment what we already have, esp someone who can compliment Schneiderlin. In that regard I think a player like Koke or Verratti would be ideal.
I agree.
Xhaka is the only player i could see replace Carrick like for like, but he signed for Arsenal.
I doubt we will sign any of Koke/Verratti/Gundogan, so i could see us rotating between Carrick/Bastian/Blind for the deep lying playmaker position and then buy a new box-to-box.
The argument is don't judge good players who've been completely misused by an awful manager. Give them an opportunity to show why they were valued at £25m & £30m and why they have both been linked with top clubs.
Likewise the argument is that the raft of players you mention would also look awful under Van Gaal; because his laboured, glacial style wouldn't have allowed for example Kante to run with the ball (something Herrera seemed to excel at early on).
I expect Mourinho to bring in 2 central defenders if I'm correct that Blind will be used further forward (as we'll only really have Smalling and the crock Jones). I expect him to bring in a big name right winger and possibly another striker (or versatile forward) in addition to Ibrahimovich.
Two defenders at c. £55m, a RW at c. £50m and maybe a versatile forward for £25m. That'd be over £125m. I also expect him to look closely at Darmian/Valencia in pre-season and feel if he's unimpressed he may put in a cheeky bid for either Carvajal or Danilo. The latter being second choice might fancy a change and the former who might be looking for a bid payday with Madrid willing to let him go if the right bid came along (since they are so strong in that position).
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No one wanted LvG out more than me but I don't think he can be blamed for every single underperformer in the squad, that would include Darmian who you listed as a possible exit below. As I said Jose might be able to get more from Herrera in the AM role, not as a deeper CM, but he can't grow a set of balls on Schneiderlin, nor can he turn back the clock and make Schweinsteiger a less injury ravaged has-been than he is.
I'd be surprised if he bought 2 CB's, not with the young ones we have coming through and him being aware of the fact he'll be scrutinized over how he uses our youth. I like Blind but I think he could be a player Jose brooms, he doesn't seem to be his type of player at all from any of his previous teams.
I would much rather get in a proper quality CM than add another versatile forward, we have Rashford, Martial, Januzaj and Lingard to get mixed in to those roles, we need a RW for sure but to me we should be looking at a CB, CM, RW and Ibra as our key business this summer.
Here are whoscored stats for some of the players mentioned. The list is sorted in order of minutes played (all competitive matches, not just league).
Yellow and red - indicate concern as do any notes in the weakness colum.
Green is good
Blue - highlights the best player (Pogba), and player best suited to replace Carrick (Weigl)
Julian Weigl - more defensive. Tall, good in the air. Over 90% pass success. Bundesliga Young Player of the Year. A player like Weigl who can help out in defence is bonus for a team like United.
Paul Pogba - is the best attacking DM. Tall, good in the air. Only 82% pass success. Scores ridiculously large number of goals for a DM.
Yellow and red - indicate concern as do any notes in the weakness colum.
Green is good
Blue - highlights the best player (Pogba), and player best suited to replace Carrick (Weigl)
Julian Weigl - more defensive. Tall, good in the air. Over 90% pass success. Bundesliga Young Player of the Year. A player like Weigl who can help out in defence is bonus for a team like United.
Paul Pogba - is the best attacking DM. Tall, good in the air. Only 82% pass success. Scores ridiculously large number of goals for a DM.
Here are whoscored stats for some of the players mentioned. The list is sorted in order of minutes played (all competitive matches, not just league).
Yellow and red - indicate concern as do any notes in the weakness colum.
Green is good
Blue - highlights the best player (Pogba), and player best suited to replace Carrick (Weigl)
Julian Weigl - more defensive. Tall, good in the air. Over 90% pass success. Bundesliga Young Player of the Year. A player like Weigl who can help out in defence is bonus for a team like United.
Paul Pogba - is the best attacking DM. Tall, good in the air. Only 82% pass success. Scores ridiculously large number of goals for a DM.
Both Mensah and Blind haven't been playing in midfield this season.
Surely it's not difficult. There are only 2 players on that list with an overall rating lower than Carrick's - and they're both teenagers. Sad to see that it's one of our own that is the only one with more minutes per goal or assist. Fellaini and Carrick have the same number of yellow cards I see. His (ultra-safe) pass success rate is no longer anything special either. Yeah - shouldn't be difficult at all, all things considered. If you're looking for someone to inspire confidence in the dressing room then that person has to be able to look people in the eye knowing that they are doing the business themselves. Can Carrick do that? Really? With these stats?Here are whoscored stats for some of the players mentioned. The list is sorted in order of minutes played (all competitive matches, not just league).
Yellow and red - indicate concern as do any notes in the weakness colum.
Green is good
Blue - highlights the best player (Pogba), and player best suited to replace Carrick (Weigl)
Julian Weigl - more defensive. Tall, good in the air. Over 90% pass success. Bundesliga Young Player of the Year. A player like Weigl who can help out in defence is bonus for a team like United.
Paul Pogba - is the best attacking DM. Tall, good in the air. Only 82% pass success. Scores ridiculously large number of goals for a DM.
I agree ultra-safe passing doesn't cut it. As well as high pass completion, a player needs fluent and progressive passing. Here's some DMs and CMs we've been linked with compared to some of our own, sorted on Pass Completion %. I cherry-picked a good year for Paul Scholes there. Normally his pass success % was 90% to 91%. Likewise, last year wasn't Carrick's best. He's often had 90% pass success %. Players obviously have be watched too over full matches to see how long they linger on the ball, how quickly they move it on, how often the pass side-ways, back or forward, and so on.
Julian Weigl still looks good to me. Passably good in the air too. Doesn't pick up too many yellows. Very Carrick like, or even better.
Julian Weigl still looks good to me. Passably good in the air too. Doesn't pick up too many yellows. Very Carrick like, or even better.
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Interesting stats. For those players Verrati, Pogba and Gundogan are my favorites.Here are whoscored stats for some of the players mentioned. The list is sorted in order of minutes played (all competitive matches, not just league).
Yellow and red - indicate concern as do any notes in the weakness colum.
Green is good
Blue - highlights the best player (Pogba), and player best suited to replace Carrick (Weigl)
Julian Weigl - more defensive. Tall, good in the air. Over 90% pass success. Bundesliga Young Player of the Year. A player like Weigl who can help out in defence is bonus for a team like United.
Paul Pogba - is the best attacking DM. Tall, good in the air. Only 82% pass success. Scores ridiculously large number of goals for a DM.
What about Kroos? I think he may have a good pass success percentage.
@Mark Pawelek
If you enjoy that, have a look at Tolisso (Lyon), Fernando (Sampdoria), Paredes (Empoli), Vecino (Fiorentina), Goretzka, Krychowiak, Bakayoko (Monaco) and Koziello (Nantes).
If you enjoy that, have a look at Tolisso (Lyon), Fernando (Sampdoria), Paredes (Empoli), Vecino (Fiorentina), Goretzka, Krychowiak, Bakayoko (Monaco) and Koziello (Nantes).
There are some random players in that list.
The list with suggested players added, defenders removed. Just midfielders, sorted on whoscored Rating column. Ours compared. Kroos has best pass success %, Pogba best rating. Got to be the last list!
He really have absolutely everything for that role, and he have potential, so he can make it for years.