Fred looks worse because we don't have a proper DM. A younger Matic or even a proper DM would get the best out of him.
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This is how I feel about everyone in midfield.
A proper CDM next to Mctominay will make him the box to box player that some think he can be.
A proper CDM next to Fred will make him the best Brazilian national team version of himself.
The right CDM that controls his area and let's you do your own thing as an attacker + some minor tactical variations (433) would even make Pogba closer to the national team version of himself than what we have seen so far.
Even when I think about Hannibal or Galbraith or Garner trying to make a step up - they are going to need that protective CDM to make that step up and play to their style a bit.
I believe that it is 100% our coaching staff. It is no coincidence that probably every single player except Fernandes and Ronaldo (who had or are having good first seasons), that comes here plays worse for us than the previous team. Our coaches don't know how to get the best out of the players. The players play worse as a team than they are as individuals. This club has been a place players come to for false promises of success over the last 10 years. Players change often, coaches and management not so much, and results stay the same or worse. It is time to change that by changing the coaches/management in charge.
A better manager would be able to make our team function better even without signing a CDM. Sure, we need one, but that isn't an excuse for the consistently piss-poor play. Ole is in above his head, and most of the coaching staff are probably too.
You're right, this does happen too often. I remember something similar was pointed out by a commentator during the Liverpool debacle. Around the 37th minute or so I think it was Arlo White or Lee Dixon who mentioned Fred being left for dead by his centerbacks as he was surrounded by Liverpool players. It was mentioned at least three times in the sequence, and the play led to Liverpool's fourth in the 38th.
Anyone who says Fred is a terrible player knows feck all. Anyone who knows his football can see he is a good footballer after watching a few matches what fred is good at, what are his strengths. U can spot it just by watching him for Brazil. He is a tenacious good pass and move player who keeps the game flowing by making short crisp passes whilst being also good in interceptions.
But we put him alongside a player who doesn’t want the ball, isn’t good defensively, isn’t good at interceptions, isn’t good in tackling in Mctominay under a tactically clueless manager whose tactics exposes every player in our team. The result is either Fred is completely exposed whether in passing or in his defensive duties or in positioning after running around like a headless chicken. Michael carrick would look like a nothing player in this team in this system under this manager. U give Fred to pep and he would be one of the best mf in the premier league I’m sure of that. Hell, even under Rodgers if he gets the job u would see Fred excel. Mark my words.
But we put him alongside a player who doesn’t want the ball, isn’t good defensively, isn’t good at interceptions, isn’t good in tackling in Mctominay under a tactically clueless manager whose tactics exposes every player in our team. The result is either Fred is completely exposed whether in passing or in his defensive duties or in positioning after running around like a headless chicken. Michael carrick would look like a nothing player in this team in this system under this manager. U give Fred to pep and he would be one of the best mf in the premier league I’m sure of that. Hell, even under Rodgers if he gets the job u would see Fred excel. Mark my words.
Fred is a better player than Scott. Yes I do agree that s better DM will make everyone better. But we need a much better coaching and tactics to compete. Even if we get Kante we still won't compete unless we get better set up of the team.
If we can't press no point in trying to press. There is more than one way to skin a cat.
Fred certainly does have a weakness in his touch and control under pressure, but our set-up highlights that weakness far more than it really should be. Poor movement off the ball by everyone, a lack of options to pass to, Fred having to try to do everything himself because his partner is constantly unavailable. If we had a proper team set-up and a midfield partner who actually complimented him (somebody to be the main playmaker instead of Fred having to try to do that role himself), it should be far better for everyone.
I mean, what other team in the world relies on their main destroyer and harrier to also be their main deep playmaker? It'd be like Chelsea expecting Kante to do that role, or PSG expecting Herrera to do it. Yet we expect Fred to do it in a team that is also terrible at creating options to pass to. Does it completely absolve him of blame when he messes it up? Of course not, but he is basically being set up to fail at the moment.
Mate I think most of us on here, understand that much of the problems regarding most of our players are exacerbated by our appalling coaching, training, system set up whatever you name it. I am sure that Fred would look better playing for Klopp, Pep, Tuchel, as would McT or Maguire or whoever is on the sword last.
Then we get on the bare minimum required to be a Manchester United midfielder, and here Fred, McT, Matic they all fall short by a fecking mile. No excuses no explanations imo. Yes he is the main destroyer and harrier? Then he is also not good enough for that role, Kante is, , do you know why? Because he is absolutely horrendous footballer(touch, dribbling,passing, shooting) No system can hide those deficiencies if you are required to be a midfielder for this club.
He's not though. He's certainly not 'great' with his touch, dribbling and passing, but he's certainly not 'absolutely horrendous' either. The issue is that when he does get it wrong he tends to get it badly wrong, which really stands out in peoples minds especially if they already don't like him. Shooting...well yeah, I'll agree with you there.
I do agree that Matic and Scott don't have the basics to be a midfielder for this club, but I think Fred could be a part of a proper set-up. He'd ideally be one of the weaker parts of that team and one that we would still look to improve on, but he could do his part in the meantime until we got to that point. Of course it also depends on whether he can get back into form. He's been struggling for consistency basically this entire year of 2021, so if that continued then maybe he couldn't even do that job in the short-term. However if he can get back into the good form that he showed in the 18 months before that (where he had been one of our most consistent players and easily our most consistent midfielder) then I expect he could play a significant role. Once again that comes back to a proper set-up around him where he should, in theory at least, find it easier to find his consistency again.
Let's agree to disagree, to me a good enough midfielder for Manchester United needs to be at least comfortable on the ball, meaning his touch consistent and simple passes not into question. With Fred you don't even get that, and as I said I think it should be bare minimum, where is the level of Keane and Michael Carrick. god forbid Paul Scholes into this debate? I mean correct me if I am mistaken, but Fred is a worse passer than Tom fecking Cleverley back in the day? And I am not saying Cleverley was a better midfielder either just passer, and I loathed seeing Tom start every week.He's not though. He's certainly not 'great' with his touch, dribbling and passing, but he's certainly not 'absolutely horrendous' either. The issue is that when he does get it wrong he tends to get it badly wrong, which really stands out in peoples minds especially if they already don't like him. Shooting...well yeah, I'll agree with you there.
I do agree that Matic and Scott don't have the basics to be a midfielder for this club, but I think Fred could be a part of a proper set-up. He'd ideally be one of the weaker parts of that team and one that we would still look to improve on, but he could do his part in the meantime until we got to that point. Of course it also depends on whether he can get back into form. He's been struggling for consistency basically this entire year of 2021, so if that continued then maybe he couldn't even do that job in the short-term. However if he can get back into the good form that he showed in the 18 months before that (where he had been one of our most consistent players and easily our most consistent midfielder) then I expect he could play a significant role. Once again that comes back to a proper set-up around him where he should, in theory at least, find it easier to find his consistency again.
Re Matic and Scott, Matic is way past his best, his footballing quality you can see in his touch and turn, but he is way past being usable for this club. Scott? Just as Fred, is painfully limited, what he lacks in Fred's energy and running, you can compensate in his greater goal threat or physicality, however the bare fecking minimum is lacking and it hurt the team. Yes they both maybe can be useful in a well working team, but let's be honest, the potential upside in them finding form and playing in a well working team, is close to absolute depressing for a hopeful Manchester United fan. This club needs better.
Yes, we do, you obviously know feck all about football mate. Then we need another one to unleash Scotty, and then we will be fine. Also bin Ronaldo in the process, he is hurting that double pivot in the middle of the team.we probably need to sign a player than can unleash Fred
Fred's passing isn't anywhere near as bad as what is often made out by his critics. Obviously he's not an amazing passer, but he's better than plenty of other midfielders that people claim are better than him. It's just that when he does get it wrong it is VERY noticeable because he messes it up completely, and then people ignore or forget just how often it's actually Fred that is getting us on the front foot with his passing through the lines or out wide into space.
I mean, just comparing him to Kante last season in terms of his passing. Fred made more passes, more medium and long passes (with better accuracy at both), more expected assists, more key passes, more passes into the final third, more passes into the penalty area, and more progressive passes towards the opposition goal in general. His passes also end with the recipient taking more shots. He was comfortably ahead of the likes of Ndidi, Rice, Allan, and Hojbjerg in most of those attributes as well, just as a quick example with players I often see people consider better. And yet people talk about him as if he does nothing but short passes sideways or backwards, and gets that wrong half the time as well.
Is he a great on the ball? No. Is he as good as Keane, Carrick or Scholes? No, of course not. But very few players are. He's decent with the occasional howler, which is certainly below what we would ideally want but (as long as he gets himself back into form) he can play his part as long as the players around him are also doing what they should be doing. The fact that he's so often basically playing as a one man midfield as he's hung out to dry by his partner is ridiculous.
https://twitter.com/CompsMU/status/1460804722286284800
Another decent performance for Brazil. What do we do to our players when they get back?
Another decent performance for Brazil. What do we do to our players when they get back?
Brazil fans love Fred. He works well in their team cause they have a class DM
What happened to United > [Enter International Team here]
What he does &/or does not do in a Brazil team with a different set up, & different players bears no relevance to the dross he’s served up for us. Every time he goes away with Brazil he looks alright then comes back to do next to nothing for the club.
These truly are strange days when certain players places in the team are defended by what they do outside of it.
What he does &/or does not do in a Brazil team with a different set up, & different players bears no relevance to the dross he’s served up for us. Every time he goes away with Brazil he looks alright then comes back to do next to nothing for the club.
These truly are strange days when certain players places in the team are defended by what they do outside of it.
Agree with a lot of that but the problem is his bottom level. It's too low. Off form, sure it happens. But at this level that should still be a 7/10 performance.
Fred's passing is woeful. The post from MadDogg shows the problem with statistics. If you watch Fred actually play, most games he will play at least one simple pass into touch or 10 yards from the intended recipient. He also avoids difficult passes that flatter his stats but are part of our problem in failing to engage our forwards and attacking midfielders. There was a great example earlier in the season, I forget the exact team but was at home. First early on Greenwood was in loads of space on the right, it needed a simply chipped 20 yard pass, nothing more, Greenwood was stood still. Instead Fred missed him by 10 yards and straight to a defender, so not only possession lost but also a promising opportunity. After that he stops trying the 'hard' pass, you will see him on the ball, spot a forwad run but then turn away and pass sideways or back. He then does his little wave to the player making a run. Rinse and repeat. He's a joke.
So anyone remember us signing a Brazilian midfielder call Kleberson. Played for the international team but was truly awful, regardless of whether he was meant to be part of the Ronaldhino deal. Every World Cup you see former chamionship players look world class for a couple of matces.
I think the issue with Fred, aside from the calamities he is capable of, is the role he is being asked to play. Let’s remember, he was bought as an offensive box to box. He is not a 6 and is often asked to play in a double 6 Defensive type of midfield shape.
His mistakes cost us because of the position on the pitch he is being asked to play. He was a more attacking 8 at Shaktar which gave him the cover he needed and allowed him to press higher up the pitch and recieve the ball in less risky areas.
For us, he is being asked to connect the defence to attack. Drop deep and receive the ball under pressure. He sticks out like a sore thumb and I distinctly remember Troy Deeeney saying after a game when Watford beat us that they targeted Fred because he is not comfortable under pressure.
He is too much of a risk in a defensive 2 and he can’t help the back 4 either positionally receiving the ball or being secure with the ball in defensive areas of the pitch. IMO, he doesn’t offer nearly enough quality going forward to be say our box to box 8 in front of a Declan Rice type.
I don’t think he is the level required, despite his engine and attitude which cannot be questioned and Is most definitely world class.
(On his Brazil performances...I’ve watched a fair few games over the past year or so since he became a regular. The pace in those games are really shocking slow compared to the PL. International football suits him...but then it suits Pogba too!)
You're talking about McTominay here. Fred plays a lot of good passes in between the lines, cutting out the midfield to find Bruno, and playing at the pace needed to effectively launch the attack. His passing range is limited but he does actually play a lot of important passes to progress the play. If anything his problem is he tries to play at that pace too frequently and doesn't know how to slow it down to the pace of his team-mates. Matic is the most capable of those passes but often holds onto the ball too long, Pogba much the same plus he's more often looking for the extravagant pass, McTominay's completely incapable of them, Fred is the only one that consistently fires in those passes. It's just that he does that while putting 10 yard passes out for throw-ins too. It's an obvious contradiction but that contradiction is just his reality, and when people think about the mistakes, they come to the overarching conclusion he can't pass. There's just copious evidence to the contrary. He's nothing like Kleberson in that regard.
No I am not. I am talking about Fred in every game I watch. McT just hides from the ball so its hard to say. Fred plays a few forward passes but cannot receive the ball under pressure and his passing is hugely erratic, he rarely palys a really incisve pass. Do you watch the games, how often does he just pass into touch? As somone else has posted, other teams used to give him the space to receive the ball and then press hard. The whole world can see how limited is. It may be we are playing hi out of his best position, but that also underlines how inadequate our recruitment is
It's not certain players, it's every player. Other than Bruno (questionable lately) and Ronaldo (a machine), everybody looks worse when they play for us.
You can't judge players in our team because the setup is so wrong. We have consistently made players look worse and that's not down to them. When you're being asked to do something you cant do, or not being asked to do anything at all, it's not your fault.
This kind of sums Fred up. We play him in a place where he is often the last man in midfield, despite knowing that's not his strongest position, then we complain when he makes a mistake there.
When you have a manager that doesn't know how to use a player, this is what happens.
We can all see Fred is not a DM as he cannot read it like a DM does, he likes to go into challenges, make interceptions. That is what a second midfielder press does. A DM reads the game and positions himself in ways that the back 4 is protected.
We all knew a DM is a big problem for us, instead we go sign RW's, CAM's that are not used. Instead, we beg for Lingard to stay rather than sell and replace with DM. This is all on the manager.
I am not saying Sancho was a mistake, I wanted us to sign him and he is a brilliant player but then use him.
Its frustrating to see our players play well in international games because they are being played with the correct partners.
We can all see Fred is not a DM as he cannot read it like a DM does, he likes to go into challenges, make interceptions. That is what a second midfielder press does. A DM reads the game and positions himself in ways that the back 4 is protected.
We all knew a DM is a big problem for us, instead we go sign RW's, CAM's that are not used. Instead, we beg for Lingard to stay rather than sell and replace with DM. This is all on the manager.
I am not saying Sancho was a mistake, I wanted us to sign him and he is a brilliant player but then use him.
Its frustrating to see our players play well in international games because they are being played with the correct partners.
Fred plays well for Brazil as he's used as the box to box midfielder that can utilise his stamina and work rate. He gets around the pitch hounding players, double covering for fullbacks when required.
At United we play such a ridgid midfield he has to sit and always think like a defender.
Remember back to last year Tottenham away when we were chasing the lead and he played some great football to get the shot away for Cavani to equalise? that's the Fred we should see more often.
People just like to rag on the guy unfairly. Yes he does make mistakes at times but we always look a lot worse without him in the team.
At United we play such a ridgid midfield he has to sit and always think like a defender.
Remember back to last year Tottenham away when we were chasing the lead and he played some great football to get the shot away for Cavani to equalise? that's the Fred we should see more often.
People just like to rag on the guy unfairly. Yes he does make mistakes at times but we always look a lot worse without him in the team.
All this tells me is it's the United setup that's failing, not Fred.
It's not like he's playing Harrogate away is it? it's bloody argentina
Always think it's interesting how Brazil rotate Casemiro and Fabinho, two of the best DMs in the world, but play Fred every game. It just shows what Fred could do if he played with a world-class DM and not McTominay all the time.
Fred is the easy scape goat. It SHOULD be McTominay if anyone, but he even escapes criticism from Roy Keane because of the British bias.
Yeah I watch the games. I agree Fred can be exploited very effectively when pressed (and without a quick release option near by).
I don’t think that’s much of a contradiction in his game actually, he’s always looking for the quick, direct pass so when he looks up and it’s not there, he’s much worse than Matic, Pogba or even to some extend McTominay at shielding it. Mostly that’s a systematic problem because you shouldn’t be leaving a midfielder exposed in such a vulnerable position so frequently, even if they’re someone like Verratti. But yeah Fred is more easily exploited there than most. We can all figure out why Fred isn’t subject to that exploitation when playing for Brazil.
He passes it out of play more often than our other midfielders and he passes it into good areas more often than our other midfielders. Both can be true but because it sounds silly, people rationalise it away. The annoying things stick in our minds more easily than the positive but subtle things. That’s normal.
Except Fred is constantly having good/excellent performances for Brazil and was man of the match in lasts nights game against Argentina.
The problem with Fred as other people have mentioned is he plays in a United midfield that is constantly outnumbered and outrun. It's a tactical problem and the blame lies solely on the manager. Put Keane and Scholes in the same system they'd struggle.
Makes you wonder, maybe the coaching and tactics do matter?
Yeah, he’s a riddle wrapped in an enigma. As well as the passing stuff you mention his form can radically change from one half to the next. Often our best and worst player within the space of 90 minutes.
Having said that, over the last 12 - 18 months he’s been, on average, one of our best performers. And almost all our good performances/results under Ole have featured top class performances from Fred. Which is why I find it so unfair/wrong how often he is singled out as being one of the biggest problems in our team. If anything, he’s the opposite. Holding things together while many other players fail to perform at the level required.
Agreed. I do find him very annoying and I think a lot of people substitute "did lots of things that annoyed me and are now stuck in my mind" for "played badly", for all sorts of players. For someone that can play tricky, subtle, important passes, it's beyond painful when he passes it out for a throw! But yeah I'd criticise a lot of players before him, and I absolutely believe he could play in a title-winning team. He never hides so he's always exposed to that kind of criticism when the team as a whole underperform. Without him we lack a bit of punch and urgency most times.
You are an honest person who calls it what it is. It baffles me most of the caf thinks Fred is worse than mctom. Nobody is worse than mctom. Awful awful player. Doesn’t have one good footballing aspect yet escapes the brutal criticism Fred gets here and in the media. I hope we get Zidane or Brendan and then let’s see who gets thrown out from the first 11. Handed a top level career because of nepotism and mourinho’s petulance. Championship level footballer is our young scotty (almost 25) and that’s me being generous.
Ole and Mctominay tax is killing him.
he is a good player when in a coherent system with class players around him.
Fred is a perfectly capable CM (shown when he was in better form and not overplayed in previous seasons and consistently for Brasil) playing in a position (DM) and system (chaos) that does him or anyone else in the team little good. The quality and work ethics of our players helped us to get 2nd last year when other big teams were floundering but it was clear then that we lacked a system that could give us consistency. Take these players and get better coaches (not the novices we have learning their trade) and we'd be a better side.
McKenna, Carrick etc might have the potential to be great coaches, but man td isn't the place for them to learn on the job, but that's exactly what has happened at the club since Faria left and they were promoted by Mourinho. Ole is mainly a man manager and figurehead wrt the coaching has been admitted - it's the rest who do the detailed coaching in sessions and they just haven't doing it well enough.
Fred's poor displays (for Utd and Utd only) are simply a symptom of that administrative mess and naivety, and translates to many of or other players.
McKenna, Carrick etc might have the potential to be great coaches, but man td isn't the place for them to learn on the job, but that's exactly what has happened at the club since Faria left and they were promoted by Mourinho. Ole is mainly a man manager and figurehead wrt the coaching has been admitted - it's the rest who do the detailed coaching in sessions and they just haven't doing it well enough.
Fred's poor displays (for Utd and Utd only) are simply a symptom of that administrative mess and naivety, and translates to many of or other players.
Another player looking more comfortable in a well-coached set-up with their national teams.
Now back to United this weekend where the players will be at 6's and 7's again.
Can wait...
Now back to United this weekend where the players will be at 6's and 7's again.
Can wait...
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