[11101]

Maguire doesn't move wider until Matic has already turned, video quite clearly shows that.

That zig zag passing between the lines is something any team from professional to half decent amateur does 100 times a game. Everton players weren't even particularly close to him when he received it, and its not like he's on the edge of his own box at the time. If we're saying Fred shouldn't pass the ball to him there then we might as well close the club and give up. Its 100% Matic's fault for being too slow on the ball.

 

[RedC]

But the move started with Maguire. So you end up with three passes there just to return the ball back to the player who started. Without moving up the pitch. One of those passes being a slightly risky one to Matic.

It seems like you don't understand what was happening at all, Maguire couldn't do anything with the ball initially, Fred taking the ball off him and passing into Matic causes opposition players to move from the setup that was affording Maguire no options, if the ball had been laid off by Matic to Maguire, he would have then had a completely free wing to pass to, moving us up the pitch in a risk free manner. The pass to Matic was in no way risky, he completely created that situation himself by trying to do 2 players with a pirouette. Watch the gif again from the beginning.

 

[Remember the geese]

But the move started with Maguire. So you end up with three passes there just to return the ball back to the player who started.

Yes but when Maguire is originally in possession, the ball out wide is not an option. It's about re-cycling possession to create a more advantageous position. Two Everton players have decided to engage Matic, therefore if he had played it back to Maguire this would have created an angle and space for him to then play it out wide.

 

[Remember the geese]

It seems like you don't understand what was happening at all, Maguire couldn't do anything with the ball initially, Fred taking the ball off him and passing into Matic causes opposition players to move from the setup that was affording Maguire no options, if the ball had been laid off by Matic to Maguire, he would have then had a completely free wing to pass to, moving us up the pitch in a risk free manner. The pass to Matic was in no way risky, he completely created that situation himself by trying to do 2 players with a pirouette. Watch the gif again from the beginning.

You beat me to it

 

[Gordon Godot]

Mate, you are just wrong. No amount of images with lines on them is going to change that. I've watched your gif and I watched the game, Maguire is moving into the space like anyone with a brain would, as he knows he is Matic's only and correct option. Calvert Lewin is moving away from Maguire when Matic receives the ball. It seems like you've never played football or something, that situation of drawing players in and then taking advantage of the space left from them moving with 1 touch football is an absolutely basic concept.

Without going back to find videos, the most depressing thing of that shot is how static our team is. 6 players standing still, Ronaldo a slight jog, Fred could easily make a strong forward move to receive the ball facing forward, but seems reluctant to and is walking/ hiding. Maguire appears to be moving but hardly looks like he is busting a gut, and given he moves like a super tanker it hardly inspires Matic to do a first time pass. Telles should also be moving wider in anticipation of it going to Maguire, also maybe MAtic just doesnt trust Maguire. YOu watch other well organised teams and you see that movement all the time.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Gifs aren't static images, if this helps.

It’s evidently no help to you, as you cling to the idea that Matic couldn’t pass to Maguire because DCL is in the way. When you look at a moving image the passing option to Maguire gets even more obvious, as him and DCL are moving in the opposite direction.

 

[UncleBob]

Not really. Watch the City Liverpool game. Players pass to each other in tight spaces all the time. The difference is that they don't brick it and forget what's around them. Matic wasn't wasn't a particularly tight spot. He had many options and chose none of them.

Tight space isn't the problem, lack of passing alternatives combined with unbalanced positioning is, which is something you rarely see them do

 

[Smores]

It seems like you don't understand what was happening at all, Maguire couldn't do anything with the ball initially, Fred taking the ball off him and passing into Matic causes opposition players to move from the setup that was affording Maguire no options, if the ball had been laid off by Matic to Maguire, he would have then had a completely free wing to pass to, moving us up the pitch in a risk free manner. The pass to Matic was in no way risky, he completely created that situation himself by trying to do 2 players with a pirouette. Watch the gif again from the beginning.

Fred took the lazy option there, he had space to move into, he had the left wing open to switch play.

Matic should deal with it but it's in no way Freds best option. It's one of those passes made just because it's the first thing he sees.

 

[simmee]

Seen the gif again. The issue is clearly Matic thinking he has loaaads of time. He needed to pass it take his first touch away from danger. Really sloppy play

The only one that has a proper view of that situation is Fred. He knew he just took the ball from Maguire which means he's clearly out of position and he can see that Matic is surrounded by three players. There was no need to rush that pass. Then of course Matic does a stupid move, but when he receives the ball DCL is actually covering Maguire before taking a step to cover a pass to Fred instead. Also Maguire pointing and telling Fred to pass Matic Honestly, at least half of the team are useless in possession which is the real problem.

 

[UncleBob]

It’s evidently no help to you, as you cling to the idea that Matic couldn’t pass to Maguire because DCL is in the way. When you look at a moving image the passing option to Maguire gets even more obvious, as him and DCL are moving in the opposite direction.

DCL is moving in the opposite direction because that's where Matic takes the ball, the entire point with his initial position is that he can either go towards Maguire, Fred if he moves central or towards Matic if he holds it. You position yourself so that the obvious passing options are limited and then you move afterwards, which is exactly what he did.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Fred took the lazy option there, he had space to move into, he had the left wing open to switch play.

Matic should deal with it but it's in no way Freds best option. It's one of those passes made just because it's the first thing he sees.

All this micro-analysis of Fred’s pass is insane. It’s a nothing pass. Just retaining possession. A CM will play a dozen passes like that every game. Sure it might not be the best possible option but that’s no big deal. Not every player takes the best possible option every time. Even world class players.

The one and only obvious error in that passage of play is by Matic. Yet we have people abusing MS paint to support the mental fecking gymnastics needed to blame their usual scapegoat of choice instead. Classic redcafe.

 

[UncleBob]

All this micro-analysis of Fred’s pass is insane. It’s a nothing pass. Just retaining possession. A CM will play a dozen passes like that every game. Sure it might not be the best possible option but that’s no big deal. Not every player takes the best possible option every time. Even world class players.

The one and only obvious error in that passage of play is by Matic. Yet we have people abusing MS paint to support the mental fecking gymnastics needed to blame their usual scapegoat of choice instead. Classic redcafe.

Weird rant.

More than one player does something stupid leading up to the goal.

AWB should close down Richarlison

Matic shouldn't be thick as feck and go for the turn

 

[RedC]

All this micro-analysis of Fred’s pass is insane. It’s a nothing pass. Just retaining possession. A CM will play a dozen passes like that every game. Sure it might not be the best possible option but that’s no big deal. Not every player takes the best possible option every time. Even world class players.

The one and only obvious error in that passage of play is by Matic. Yet we have people abusing MS paint to support the mental fecking gymnastics needed to blame their usual scapegoat of choice instead. Classic redcafe.

It is utter nonsense. If we had scored a goal from this build up you would have people saying that we recycled the ball well and dragged Everton around the pitch.

 

[UncleBob]

It is utter nonsense. If we had scored a goal from this build up you would have people saying that we recycled the ball well and dragged Everton around the pitch.

And if i had taken up a £100k loan to buy lottery tickets for the euro jackpot and won the first price, it would’ve been brilliant. The obvious and more likely downside, however

 

[Marwood]

It seems like you don't understand what was happening at all, Maguire couldn't do anything with the ball initially, Fred taking the ball off him and passing into Matic causes opposition players to move from the setup that was affording Maguire no options, if the ball had been laid off by Matic to Maguire, he would have then had a completely free wing to pass to, moving us up the pitch in a risk free manner. The pass to Matic was in no way risky, he completely created that situation himself by trying to do 2 players with a pirouette. Watch the gif again from the beginning.

Fred took it off Maguires toes. If Maguire wasn't in a position to do anything then neither was Fred right? They were literally stood next to each when exchanging possession.

We've been making these sloppy passing decisions for ages but right now, with everyone low on confidence, it's getting worse.

A confident Maguire probably tells Fred to bugger off and make himself an option. A confident Fred doesn't take the first pass he can, holds it, tells others to move for him.

It is by far our biggest problem as a team.

 

[Skills]

I actually thought it was a great pass to Matic.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Weird rant.

More than one player does something stupid leading up to the goal.

AWB should close down Richarlison

Matic shouldn't be thick as feck and go for the turn

Strangers discussing football on the internet is plenty weird to begin with, without the additional weirdness of trying to blame Fred for Matic’s cock-up.

 

[Smores]

All this micro-analysis of Fred’s pass is insane. It’s a nothing pass. Just retaining possession. A CM will play a dozen passes like that every game. Sure it might not be the best possible option but that’s no big deal. Not every player takes the best possible option every time. Even world class players.

The one and only obvious error in that passage of play is by Matic. Yet we have people abusing MS paint to support the mental fecking gymnastics needed to blame their usual scapegoat of choice instead. Classic redcafe.

Think you're blowing it out of proportion a bit. Not everything has to be pointing the finger at single players.

It's a team sport in most plays things are done well by others and worse by others. Fred made a poor decision and a pass that contributed to an error made by Matic. I don't see the big deal with pointing that out.

It's a general issue with us that our passing is static, by the passer and receiver. Drive forward as he could/should there and their might be a run made he can feed into, if not he can feed it back to Maguire under no pressure.

 

[RedC]

I actually thought it was a great pass to Matic.

It's a perfect pass, weighted for him to lay it off first time, to his dominant foot. Some people are genuinely deluded if they think there is anything wrong with that passage of play, other than what Matic did.

 

[MadDogg]

There is no immediate angle to anyone. Best option is trying to pass it into open space for Maguire, but Calvin is positioning himself either to press Maguire if he gets the ball or press Fred if it's passed back.

Fred, who made the shit pass to begin with, is essentially just standing there with his cock in his hands doing feck all. Minimum should be moving forward between Calvin and Iwobi to draw both players closer to him so that atleast Maguire is a better option.

How anyone can look at the clip above and go "yep, that's clever by Fred, nothing wrong at all, happens all the time, all on Matic" is beyond me. They are both absolutely shit in that situation

Fred makes two mistakes in that instance. Neither was the pass selection, which was the correct pass to make. The mistakes were that there wasn't enough weight on the pass which allowed Everton a bit more time to get close to Matic than there should have been, and that after making the pass he just walked randomly instead of running forward into the space you can see in your last pic.

Maguire made a similar mistake to Fred's second, where he just slowly walked over to the left. As soon as Fred passed the ball (probably before that in fact) Maguire should have been running to the left to improve the angle both for Matic to pass to and for him to then pass to Telles.

Matic made the biggest mistake of instead of making the pass back to Maguire (which was made more difficult by Maguire being slow, but was still on - in pics DCL may be in a decent position but in reality all his weight was moving to his right), Matic tried to take it on and move forward himself. The question is whether anybody called to let him know that he was being pressed from behind, but at the same time he should know that he's going to be under pressure in that position.

I'm not absolving Fred from any blame here, but the blame should be for the things he actually did wrong. The pass selection was fine.

 

[Litch]

………trust and believe me, if Fred had done what Matic did @UncleBob, you are not saying it was Matic’s fault. Fred is on the pitch 30 mins, and people still what to blame him for the loss. That’s was a pass you’d see 1000x in any game of football……

 

[MadDogg]

But the move started with Maguire. So you end up with three passes there just to return the ball back to the player who started. Without moving up the pitch. One of those passes being a slightly risky one to Matic.

It's fine going back to the the player who had it a few passes before if those few passes have now moved the opposition out of position and created space. Which is exactly what has happened in this particular situation as our left wing is now in a strong position with a 2v1 if the ball gets out there, which is what Maguire would then have been in a great position to do once Matic passed it back to him.

Indeed I would say that passages of play like that is what we need more, rather than our players trying to force passes while the opposition are all set in their positions. Short, quick passes to draw the opposition, and then pass it around them. Pep's teams are the masters of exactly this.

 

[Litch]

Fred makes two mistakes in that instance. Neither was the pass selection, which was the correct pass to make. The mistakes were that there wasn't enough weight on the pass which allowed Everton a bit more time to get close to Matic than there should have been, and that after making the pass he just walked randomly instead of running forward into the space you can see in your last pic.

Maguire made a similar mistake to Fred's second, where he just slowly walked over to the left. As soon as Fred passed the ball (probably before that in fact) Maguire should have been running to the left to improve the angle both for Matic to pass to and for him to then pass to Telles.

Matic made the biggest mistake of instead of making the pass back to Maguire (which was made more difficult by Maguire being slow, but was still on - in pics DCL may be in a decent position but in reality all his weight was moving to his right), Matic tried to take it on and move forward himself. The question is whether anybody called to let him know that he was being pressed from behind, but at the same time he should know that he's going to be under pressure in that position.

I'm not absolving Fred from any blame here, but the blame should be for the things he actually did wrong. The pass selection was fine.

If this is what it comes down to, we are fecked as a fan base.

 

[Marwood]

………trust and believe me, if Fred had done what Matic did @UncleBob, you are not saying it was Matic’s fault. Fred is on the pitch 30 mins, and people still what to blame him for the loss. That’s was a pass you’d see 1000x in any game of football……

Nobody's blaming Fred for the loss. That's crazy talk.

 

[Litch]

Nobody's blaming Fred for the loss. That's crazy talk.

Not crazy at all. If someone is suggesting the only goal in the game was conceded due to Freds poor pass, then indirectly that’s exactly what is being said. Why you think it’s generating so much debate?

 

[Ali Dia]

POTS wish we’d 10 more like him.

 

[Marwood]

Not crazy at all. If someone is suggesting the only goal in the game was conceded due to Freds poor pass, then indirectly that’s exactly what is being said. Why you think it’s generating so much debate?

But everyone, and I mean everyone, also says that goal was also down to Matic. Even primarily Matic. We're just discussing Fred's role in it.

And that's aside from all the other problems we had like barely creating a chance.

Seriously, nobody is blaming just Fred for the loss. That's silly.

I like Fred in a certain role. I just don't want him taking the ball off Maguire's toes and giving Matic the kind of ball we've seen Fred himself panic over many times.

 

[Litch]

But everyone, and I mean everyone, also says that goal was also down to Matic. Even primarily Matic. We're just discussing Fred's role in it.

And that's aside from all the other problems we had like barely creating a chance.

Seriously, nobody is blaming just Fred for the loss. That's silly.

Many are but equally some are blaming both (somehow). Honestly in my opinion and like said, if Matic had passed it to Fred, you are not reading 3 or 4 pages about a absolute nothing pass. What you would be reading is Fred’s shit control, no football brain, worst player to wear the shirt etc that cost us the goal.

 

[UncleBob]

………trust and believe me, if Fred had done what Matic did @UncleBob, you are not saying it was Matic’s fault. Fred is on the pitch 30 mins, and people still what to blame him for the loss. That’s was a pass you’d see 1000x in any game of football……

Yet i literally wrote this in the matchday thread.

Who is responsible for giving the ball away again? matic

 

[Silverman]

We really missed Fred the last few games. He fully deserves a chance under Ten Hag.

 

[united for life]

We really missed Fred the last few games. He fully deserves a chance under Ten Hag.

i don’t think he would’ve made much difference to be honest. We’d still get hammered by Liverpool with him on the pitch. But I agree, he is one of those who for sure will be at the club next year and should be given a chance by ETH.

 

[RashyGiggsy]

We really missed Fred the last few games. He fully deserves a chance under Ten Hag.

I agree. And we still would not have won against Liverpool, but Fred is an upgrade over Pogba. Imagine saying that a few years ago!!

 

[L1nk]

Fred seems up for the new manager at least

 

[Kaos]

Fred seems up for the new manager at least

Fred is a real one, for all his flaws, you could never question his work ethic.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

Fred is a real one, for all his flaws, you could never question his work ethic.

I totally agree, he has become my favourite player in the squad honestly.

 

[Raven]

Fred seems up for the new manager at least

Fred's the man, think he could potentially hit new heights under ETH.

 

[Red Shorts]

One of the few with the fighting attitude we need. I hope he will be in ETHs plans

 

[Irwin99]

EtH will love him.

 

[bugmat]

Did ok yesterday for the second half game time he got, despite being handicapped by the first half performances of others carrying through to the second. Actually won most of his tackles, had a few interceptions and good forward passes that unfortnately died at the feet of others like dalot. Glad to see his hunger is still there despite the season being dead on its feet for us.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

I agree. And we still would not have won against Liverpool, but Fred is an upgrade over Pogba. Imagine saying that a few years ago!!

Not just Pogba, he’s comfortably our best midfielder and I include Bruno in that. The worrying thing is that Fred is our best midfielder so that tells you where we are at.