Why don't you make throwaway comments like this on the podcast? would definitely make things more interesting.
Fabregas, Barcelona, & Badge Kissing.
- Thread starter Ceks
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Why don't you make throwaway comments like this on the podcast? would definitely make things more interesting.
I think some reckon 'Arsenal passage' is a fair description. I'm conscious that I'm a guest and it's aimed at Man Utd cnuts so I'm led by MuN and a feel for what's of interest to most of the punters.
Mellowed, eh? So now you're calling us Man Utd cnuts, as you're supposed to.
Of course Fabregas is an absolutely brilliant player. When the time comes to sum up his carreer it might very well turn out he was a better player than Scholes.
It's far too early to say at the moment.
If you've found a single '"Man Utd!"cnut!!!1!' who've claimed we've got an 'embarrassment of riches in CM' you found a human being so drunk and/or so high I'm amazed he could form a coherent sentence at all.
Regarding badge kissing, it's just incredibly tacky. I hate it with every fibre of my being & cringe whenever I see a United player indulging in it. It's cheap beyond belief.
I have several posts in this thread questioning statements which suggest Fabregas is a shoe in to be better than Scholes
Regarding Schmeichel, these things are always personal opinion. What's unquestionable is that he's right up there, and the case can easily be made that he's the best of all time
I honestly could not care less about how some Gooners or any 'neutrals' rate Schmeichel -- he was absolutely first class for us & that's all I care about. If they can't see how brilliant he was it's their loss.
I do agree it's infuriating when United players are underrated, but after more than 10 years of criminal underrating of Scholes from both the press & the non-United-supporting public I've decided it's a lost cause.
Just let them be the laughing stocks of generations to come, like those who mocked & underrated eg Copernicus, Mozart or Wagner.
Then again you value passing a bit too much in midfield, so you're not exactly the best judge either.
I think he is valuing 4 goals & 11 assists as opposed to someone with 3 goals so far this season.
I don't doubt for a second Peter is being a little bit of a penis in this thread thus far
But how do you over value midfield passing?
The answer to this is going to be epic.
Thinking it's the be all and end all.
Thinking that not being an excellent passer means you can't be an excellent midfielder.
Things like that.
Part of the reason he thinks Fletcher's a bit rubbish.
I do agree - for once I can't agree with Brwned at all. Fabregas is absolutely brilliant & would walk into our team, of course.
Sad as it may seem I kept on keeping on my admiration of him even when my Gooner mates lost hope last season.
(A bit OT - One of my last conversations with my late Gooner father was regarding this subject. It was while Henry was still with you, and my father asked 'Who'd you rather have from our team at United?' & when I replied 'Fabregas' he laughed & said 'You might be United, but you know your football, you're still my girl!')
He's an absolutely fantastic midfielder, both regarding vision & technique.
I do agree - for once I can't agree with Brwned at all. Fabregas is absolutely brilliant & would walk into our team, of course.
Sad as it may seem I kept on keeping on my admiration of him even when my Gooner mates lost hope last season.
(A bit OT - One of my last conversations with my late Gooner father was regarding this subject. It was while Henry was still with you, and my father asked 'Who'd you rather have from our team at United?' & when I replied 'Fabregas' he laughed & said 'You might be United, but you know your football, you're still my girl!')
He's an absolutely fantastic midfielder, both regarding vision & technique.
Eh, I don't think I implied anything about Fabregas in that post at all.
I think he's excellent, the best creative passing midfielder in the world and one of the best midfielders in the world.
I always enjoy your posts Watraute
Sorry, I seem to have totally misinterpreted your earlier post(s).
Time to go to bed...
ETA -- Thank you so very much for your kind words, Boss.
though i used to hate him, i've warmed up to him and really admire his footballing. I'd love to have him replace scholes when he decides to hang up his boots. Him partnering carrick or fletcher is frightening and would really suit the way we play. He'd have a more important role at united than he would if he went to barca. they have a fairly young team and xavi and iniesta can, imo, play together and dominate for barca for years to come, so i don't think barca really need him as much as we would.
the worrying thing for us is that we still rely on our aging scholes and giggsy for that extra bit of oomph and creativity to get that match-winning goal. carrick, fletch, anderson, valencia, park, and nani aren't going to consistently do what giggs and scholes have been doing for us the past decade. fabregas i feel would fill that attacking creativity void. he has done and said some cnutish things but if fergie could convince him to be the heartbeat of our team, and somehow get arsenal to sell i'd gladly welcome him
the worrying thing for us is that we still rely on our aging scholes and giggsy for that extra bit of oomph and creativity to get that match-winning goal. carrick, fletch, anderson, valencia, park, and nani aren't going to consistently do what giggs and scholes have been doing for us the past decade. fabregas i feel would fill that attacking creativity void. he has done and said some cnutish things but if fergie could convince him to be the heartbeat of our team, and somehow get arsenal to sell i'd gladly welcome him
I had a very weird dream this morning, that we signed Fabregas next season and he was playing very well for us too. Dunno why as whilst I acknowledge he's a top player, I've never particularly wanted him at United but going by a handful of matches this season, he is exactly the player we need in our side, one who can pass the ball, keep possession, link the play and score goals. There are many deciding factors I see in him not coming to United such as he is an Arsenal player and their best one at that, he seemingly would prefer a move to Spain, Real or Barca in particular, and also there's the history of him being a petulant little cnut towards United and it's common knowledge it was him who chucked the soup and pizza at Fergsuon in 2004. That aside, with us buying Ferdinand, Rooney, Smith and Owen, nothing would surprise me anymore. And also, I cannot see Real buying him with Alonso and them probably spending a lot of Ribery next season, and would Barca need/want Fabregas when they have Xavi AND Iniesta? I couldn't see it myself as all three are so similar.
LULZ at Kraftwerker saying Scholes ran the midfields by himself. I guess Keane, one of the best midfielders of the last generation was just a passenger, eh?
Meanwhile Fabregas has ran our show when coupled with the likes of Gilberto, Flamini, Denilson and Song. Stop the difference, loverly LULZLOGIC yet again.
Anyway, why is it when someone/people praise some player or compare him to a champion it's somehow turned around to said champion being belittled or their ability being questioned. Fabregas has proven he's an amazing player, a player who has ran our midfield (with the help of Gilberto, Flamini, Song and Denilson) from the tender age of 18, for the past 4 seasons.
He's a freak and has proven to be as much over the course of his Arsenal career. And it's not out of the relms of possibility that he'll end up being held in higher/equal regard with the likes of Scholes, because he's got the ability to be.
On a side note he will most certainly take the piss for Barca when he eventually moves... Imagine the time he'll be afforded on the ball over there.
Meanwhile Fabregas has ran our show when coupled with the likes of Gilberto, Flamini, Denilson and Song. Stop the difference, loverly LULZLOGIC yet again.
Anyway, why is it when someone/people praise some player or compare him to a champion it's somehow turned around to said champion being belittled or their ability being questioned. Fabregas has proven he's an amazing player, a player who has ran our midfield (with the help of Gilberto, Flamini, Song and Denilson) from the tender age of 18, for the past 4 seasons.
He's a freak and has proven to be as much over the course of his Arsenal career. And it's not out of the relms of possibility that he'll end up being held in higher/equal regard with the likes of Scholes, because he's got the ability to be.
On a side note he will most certainly take the piss for Barca when he eventually moves... Imagine the time he'll be afforded on the ball over there.
To be honest, I kinda agree with Cesc.
From what I can remember, the one criticism that can be leveled at Scholes when he was 24-27 years old was he didn't dominate games enough. Although, as an excuse, it kinda hard to dominate midfield when you're sharing the midfield with Roy Keane at the peak of his powers. Scholes was an incredibly effective scorer though. One game stuck to mind during the treble season against Blackburn at home. He scored twice in the 3-2 win, but it was Keane who was controlling the midfield.
He become a better midfielder in his latter years. I personally thought his best season was 2006-2007, his passings was a joy to watch. Considering Fabregas now at 22 were controling games like he a 30 year old veteran, I'd say he has a very good chance of becoming as good as Scholes or even better, if he keeps improving.
From what I can remember, the one criticism that can be leveled at Scholes when he was 24-27 years old was he didn't dominate games enough. Although, as an excuse, it kinda hard to dominate midfield when you're sharing the midfield with Roy Keane at the peak of his powers. Scholes was an incredibly effective scorer though. One game stuck to mind during the treble season against Blackburn at home. He scored twice in the 3-2 win, but it was Keane who was controlling the midfield.
He become a better midfielder in his latter years. I personally thought his best season was 2006-2007, his passings was a joy to watch. Considering Fabregas now at 22 were controling games like he a 30 year old veteran, I'd say he has a very good chance of becoming as good as Scholes or even better, if he keeps improving.
How does age even matter? We're not talking about potential we're talking about who's the better player?
And Xavi is much better right now. Heart of the midfield of the best team in the world. First choice ahead of Fabregas for his country. And most importantly, like the top midfielders, CONSISTENT.
Fabregas is very good. Just not as good as Xavi. The latter has been consistently brilliant for quite a long time now. Fabregas has always been brilliant in spurts and otherwise just alright.
I do agree that it's hardly laughable for him to end up being as good as any of the current midfielders. He's extremely talented.
The one who I think will be a notch above every other midfielder if he fulfills his potential is Iniesta. I know he's coming back from an injury right now so I've heard he's taking time to get back into the groove. But he's just such a unique player that for me is a joy to watch. A central midfielder with magnificent technique, awesome vision AND the ability to dribble past defenders as well as anyone barring Messi. It's a combination that tore us to shreds in the CL final. I haven't seen such an impressive midfield display against us. Absolute masterclass.
Why do you turn into such a spacker when you're debating Arsenal players? Maybe you should stick to the general or failing that, actually read my posts.
I've quite clearly said Fabregas has all the talents to at least match Scholes so stop getting all defensive thinking I don't rate him.
All I've said is that he'll have had a very fecking good career if he's held in the same or higher regard than Scholes when he retires.
I think he will have a very good career, with lots of success, most likely at Barcelona. So do I think it will happen? Yes. Does that mean it definitely will happen and he definitely will be regarded as much a legend as Scholes when he retires? No, of course not.
Keane would dominate midfields but Scholes would run them with his passing. His goal record is the thing that most stands out for me though. You're the one who's always talking up Arsenal's supporting act midfielders like they're the 2nd coming. Now you're shitting all over them to make Fabregas look better. Just about sums you up.
Brilliant player. He's slow, lightweight and would have little chance in the modern game, that is based largely around athleticism if it wasn't for his footballing brain. Since he was 16-17 his footballing maturity and vision has been freakish for someone so young. I reckon that he didn't really replace Viera but Bergkamp instead.
As has been said, I think he'll become Xavi's replacement at Barca in 3 or 4 seasons. At least it would make a lot of sense for all parties involved. And I don't think Arsenal can/will have too many gripes about it considering the service he is likely to have given them.
As has been said, I think he'll become Xavi's replacement at Barca in 3 or 4 seasons. At least it would make a lot of sense for all parties involved. And I don't think Arsenal can/will have too many gripes about it considering the service he is likely to have given them.
A spacker? Heh. That's because you guys argue without the use of reasonable logic, get defensive, miss the point and use silly arguments.
For example (your last paragraph there): I'm not shitting over anyone, so how the feck does that 'sum me up.' Flamini and Gilberto were excellent players for us, but they don't compare to the likes of Keane. Which was my point. And I think Song's going to become a very good player for us, but he's only hit form/found his feet since the turn of the year. He also plays well with Denilson, as their 'games' feed off each other, and are improving with each game. As it stands, neither of which are top notch players, though personally I feel Song is becoming one but that's another story.
And that's not pissing over anyone, that's recognising their respective ability. Regardless, none of them run our midfield, and all of them are there to (essentially) support Fabregas.
For example: You made it sound as if Scholes was the only player to run the show in two-man midfields, conveniently leaving out of the fact he was partnered with one of the best combative midfielders of the last generation. You say as much (but this may just be me) as if it's something Fabregas has never done, yet he has done as much and when coupled with inferior players (to Keane). So it's currently reasonable to make such claims as Jazz, and the rest of us have.
Fabregas has shown he has astounding ability, he has shown he can dictate how a whole side (and a top side at that) plays Football from the age of 18. The trophies/medals he wins come the end of his career will be irrelevant when comparing his playing ability to others.
Fabregas - a superb player
Scholes - a superb player
What else?
Scholes - a superb player
What else?
Age only really matters when we're talking in hypotheticals. And it all evolves around that magic word - potentially.
To be highly regarded as a footballer (certainly at the Scholes level), which is what this debate is about, you will almost certainly have to have had a career littered with success. As I said earlier, think about the legends of the game, now think about which of those players didn't have careers littered with medals. Who's on your list? Answer the question.
Fabregas will likely do this. I envisage him winning alot of titles and a few Champions Leagues in the future. So he will more than likely be regarded as highly as Scholes, but this is not guaranteed. Nor is it straight-forward, which is why saying things like 'Fabregas will be more highly regarded than Scholes when he retires' is highly premature and a stupid thing to say. Cesc would laugh at you himself if he heard you saying it, because he'd realise he's got a long way to go yet. Nothing comes easy in football, even for very talented youngsters.
Indeed. I don't disagree with anyone saying he will potentially be as good as Scholes or Xavi. What I do contest though is those claiming he's already on Xavi's level. This is simply a knee-jerk reaction to early-season form and completely ignorant of last year when Fabregas struggled (comparatively) while Xavi posted a phenomenal season as the hub of one of the most dominant midfields in living memory.
Well personally I just don't see how any medal or trophy that would be won due to team success has any bearing on how a player is seen as an individual, ability wise. I just don't see how it's relevant. If we're discussing the success they accumulated during their careers, then it would, but if we're talking about how good they were as a player then it holds no bearing. How can noone see this?
Fabregas playing for Sunderland would still be the same Fabregas.
Fabregas playing for Sunderland would still be the same Fabregas.
During 05/06..Fabregas masterminded Arsenals run to the Champions League final, during 07/08.. he was supreme and Arsenal should've won that years premiership if Gallas hadn't fecked it up and Eduardo's injury.
If Fabregas was playing for us, he'd have won shit loads of trophies by now..so let's not underestimate this kid's talent based purely on his trophy cabinet or lack of it. Would Scholes/Xavi at the same age have had more of an impact at a team like Arsenal where they would be expected to be the main creative force?
If Fabregas was playing for us, he'd have won shit loads of trophies by now..so let's not underestimate this kid's talent based purely on his trophy cabinet or lack of it. Would Scholes/Xavi at the same age have had more of an impact at a team like Arsenal where they would be expected to be the main creative force?
Which is what we are talking about. It was said that Fabregas will be more highly regarded than Scholes when he retires. To be as highly regarded as Scholes, not only will he have to continue showing the Scholes-esque football he has been doing, but he'll also have to have had a career littered with medals. Afterall, all the most highly regarded players in the game have had very successful careers with multiple medals - Scholes is no different. You couldn't even name one highly regarded football legend who didn't, which proves my point.
The only thing I've said all along is that Fabregas will have had one hell of a career if he's regarded as highly as Scholes when he retires. Yet this has somehow been misconstrued that I don't rate Fabregas, nor do I think he will ever match Scholes. Quite the opposite, I rate him extremely highly, and I wouldn't bet against him winning lots of trophies in the future, and retiring as highly regarded as Scholes. It's by no means guaranteed though, as much as any of us think it will happen.
Good points
I agree. But are we talking about potential or current level? Fabregas has immense potential but in terms of current level of performance he's well behind the best (Xavi) and age is irrelevant.
It's my personal opinion that there's noone better than Iniesta in terms of potential.
I haven't read all 5 pages on this, so apologies if I repeat some opinions that've already come up.
I think he wants to stay because he loves the club but can't and won't if he's not getting the right level of football of Arsenal. This, coupled with Barcelona asking the question could make him move on, even as soon as next summer.
"The Big Four" looks more open than ever this season, so if Arsenal don't get a Champions League spot and win nothing come May, I think there is a pretty good chance he'll go. Which, given he must've known he might do it, would make the badge kiss all the more odd.
Or maybe he's there for life and that's why he did it? As Ceks said, if he isn't there for 4-5 more years then he's being a bit disrespectful.
I think he wants to stay because he loves the club but can't and won't if he's not getting the right level of football of Arsenal. This, coupled with Barcelona asking the question could make him move on, even as soon as next summer.
"The Big Four" looks more open than ever this season, so if Arsenal don't get a Champions League spot and win nothing come May, I think there is a pretty good chance he'll go. Which, given he must've known he might do it, would make the badge kiss all the more odd.
Or maybe he's there for life and that's why he did it? As Ceks said, if he isn't there for 4-5 more years then he's being a bit disrespectful.
Bullshit.
Consistency is all he is missing at the moment. So far for Arsenal he hasn't put in a dud performance this season in my opinion.
We're giving all the credit for that run to the Champions League final to Cesc Fabregas are we? Didn't a certain Thierry Henry have a little to do with that, never mind the other quality players on show? If Cesc is downplaying Paul Scholes influence because he played alongside Keane, you can't have it both ways. Flamini at the time was having career seasons too of course
As for saying Arsenal should have won the Premiership... no they shouldn't, they collapsed. Only Liverpool celebrate winning the Christmas Premiership, the rest of us see the job out first. Eduardo wasn't that key a player to Arsenal to make such a difference. And Gallas was their captain that first half so it can't all be blamed on him. Maybe that's the difference between the good and the best?
That year we fecked it up against lesser teams, teams Eduardo scores goals in his sleep against, how i would love to see the season played out without that cnut taylor taking his leg out.
Is this the Eduardo that had scored 4 goals in 17 league games to that point sorry?
Score in his sleep you say?
Yeah i saw his dreams... he scored heaps.