Fabregas, Barcelona, & Badge Kissing.

Brwned said:
It's a nice quote, I still wouldn't use it in argument to prove anything.

Using someone else's opinion to prove your own isn't particularly useful.
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Er, I provided my reasons for why I think Scholes is brilliant - running midfields himself even with just one partner, regularly scoring double figure goals, being an integral player in one of the most successful teams in modern football.

It's pretty clear though that me saying 'Scholes is one of the best midfielders of his generation and Fabregas would be doing well to match him' isn't exactly going to be accepted by Arsenal fans. And indeed Jazza used the tired old argument that I only rate him so high because I'm a United fan, so it's hardly stupid of me to include the opinions of 'neutrals' for balance, because everything I say can and will be attributed to bias by the gooners.
 
Kraftwerker said:
Er, I provided my reasons for why I think Scholes is brilliant - running midfields himself even with just one partner, regularly scoring double figure goals, being an integral player in one of the most successful teams in modern football.

It's pretty clear though that me saying 'Scholes is one of the best midfielders of his generation and Fabregas would be doing well to match him' isn't exactly going to be accepted by Arsenal fans. And indeed Jazza used the tired old argument that I only rate him so high because I'm a United fan, so it's hardly stupid of me to include the opinions of 'neutrals' for balance, because everything I say can and will be attributed to bias by the gooners.
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Scholes is one of the best CM of his generation.... so is fabregas.
 
B9 from YAWN said:
Although this is true, his contributions for England at the time, whether centrally or on the left, were hardly something England fans could have been 'gutted' to have missed out on.
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Correct. Prior to scoring his last goal for England (A header if I remember correctly?) it had been something like a year and a half to two years since his most recent goal. The Scholes we were seeing for England was not the same player we were seeing driving United forward in each and every game, on the left, in the middle, wherever. In fact it might be that his best performances for England came when he was playing up front and scoring his goals.
 
Kraftwerker said:
Er, I provided my reasons for why I think Scholes is brilliant - running midfields himself even with just one partner, regularly scoring double figure goals, being an integral player in one of the most successful teams in modern football.

It's pretty clear though that me saying 'Scholes is one of the best midfielders of his generation and Fabregas would be doing well to match him' isn't exactly going to be accepted by Arsenal fans. And indeed Jazza used the tired old argument that I only rate him so high because I'm a United fan, so it's hardly stupid of me to include the opinions of 'neutrals' for balance, because everything I say can and will be attributed to bias by the gooners.
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It's quite likely it'll just be attributed to stupidity on Zidane's part instead though, that's what the Liverpool fans have done in other threads about it, citing Zidane calling Gerrard the best player in the world as proof of either Zidane not being all that reliable with his judgement or that Gerrard's the best player in the world - win-win for them.

I think your own argument's strong enough to prove Scholes is one of the best midfielders of his generation, and I don't think a Zidane quote strengthens it.
 
Christofaux said:
Scholes is one of the best CM of his generation.... so is fabregas.
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Yes, but Fabregas will still have to achieve alot more to be regarded as highly when he retires. The point remains, he'll have done very fecking well to be regarded as highly as Scholes when he hangs up his boots. It's all there for him and I don't doubt it for a second, but it's by no means guaranteed either.
 
Brwned said:
It's quite likely it'll just be attributed to stupidity on Zidane's part instead though, that's what the Liverpool fans have done in other threads about it, citing Zidane calling Gerrard the best player in the world as proof of either Zidane not being all that reliable with his judgement or that Gerrard's the best player in the world - win-win for them.

I think your own argument's strong enough to prove Scholes is one of the best midfielders of his generation, and I don't think a Zidane quote strengthens it.
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What about a Lippi quote? ;)

“Paul Scholes would have been one of my first choices for putting together a great team - that goes to show how highly I have always rated him. He would have been one of the first players I’d have bought, given the chance.”

Marcello Lippi
 
Fabregas does have to do more yes, but helping to win the euros was a big step in that direction. I dont think there's a huge amount more he has to do on the world stage. Not that he was amazing at the euros, as he wasnt. He played fine and helped his team win, but like Torres, enjoyed a media frenzy over every fairly good performance and his penalty.
 
Ekeke said:
Fabregas does have to do more yes, but helping to win the euros was a big step in that direction. I dont think there's a huge amount more he has to do on the world stage. Not that he was amazing at the euros, as he wasnt. He played fine and helped his team win, but like Torres, enjoyed a media frenzy over every fairly good performance and his penalty.
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One summer tournament means feck all.

Think of all the great players that has never played in an international tournament.
 
CnutOfAllCnuts said:
One summer tournament means feck all.

Think of all the great players that has never played in an international tournament.
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When it comes to reputation with neutrals, it doesnt mean feck all at all.

Just like Scholes' reputation is majorly enhanced by all the success he's achieved at United, Fabregas' reputation will have been majorly enhanced by helping to win the euros.

And if we're talking about the neutral fan, someone who doesnt specifcally follow premier league football, I think winning the euros would probably mean more to them than winning a league title. Obviously Scholes has the champions league wins, and a whole bunch of other league title wins as well. So work to do still for Fabregas to be held in the same esteem. But the euros was definately a good start for him... Next up, leave Arsenal and have a chance at winning domestic competitions.
 
Ekeke said:
Fabregas does have to do more yes, but helping to win the euros was a big step in that direction. I dont think there's a huge amount more he has to do on the world stage. Not that he was amazing at the euros, as he wasnt. He played fine and helped his team win, but like Torres, enjoyed a media frenzy over every fairly good performance and his penalty.
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You're right, it's a step in the right direction. You're pretty spot on with your summation as well - he was good but not amazing, and not even integral IMO.

Once he starts repeating it on a consistent basis, being an integral member of very successful sides, then he'll be well on his way to being as highly regarded as Scholes when he retires.

The only issue I have here is that some people seem to think this next step is guaranteed and Fabregas simply will be more highly regarded than Scholes when he quits. It's just not that guaranteed nor straight-forward.
 
Brad said:
I'd suggest when a player wins the league title 9 times, and captures 2 European trophies during his career, that's hardly an irrelevance. In fact it's extremely relevant. If you have Scholes in your side, you win. What better mark of a player is there than that?
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So Park's just as good as Pires/Henry, etc?

Once again it's LULZLOGIC.
 
Kraftwerker said:
Yes, but Fabregas will still have to achieve alot more to be regarded as highly when he retires. The point remains, he'll have done very fecking well to be regarded as highly as Scholes when he hangs up his boots. It's all there for him and I don't doubt it for a second, but it's by no means guaranteed either.
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No he doesn't.

We're talking about individual ability. Team success has absolutely nothing to do with individual ability. And Fabregas has 'ran' midfields when coupled with Gilberto, and Flamini, at the ripe age of 18/19/20. He ran our bloody team at that age, and still does. Scholes ran them with club legend Keane at his side/back. There's a difference there, age and partner-wise.

Anyway, no one's actually saying Scholes isn't one of the best midfielders of the last while.
 
cesc's_mullet said:
So Park's just as good as Pires/Henry, etc?

Once again it's LULZLOGIC.
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No, which is why trophies aren't the be all and end all

But it's still of relevance

The best players rise to the top and win things, regularly. That's part of why they're the best. This hasn't been a debate regarding whether Fabregas is a very good player or not, he is. It's been put that it's almost a given that he'll be a better player than Paul Scholes. The genius that's been at the heart of our league dominating midfield for a decade and a half now. Now that is some claim
 
The best TEAMS rise to the top and win trophies.

You can't deny Henry isn't one of the best players, if not the, to ever grace the Premiership - and by that rating he should've won the League every single year, according to your logic. He didn't though, thanks to team failings.
 
cesc's_mullet said:
The best TEAMS rise to the top and win trophies.

You can't deny Henry isn't one of the best players, if not the, to ever grace the Premiership - and by that rating he should've won the League every single year, according to your logic. He didn't though, thanks to team failings.
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Erm, Henry has a medal collection that is almost unrivalled. Is there anything he hasn't won? Such a shit example.

Think back about all the legends of the game. I'm sure you've got your own list in your head. Now pick one who was never an integral member of a very successful side. Your list suddenly becomes very short. Would you like to name them?

Noone's saying Fabregas won't go on and do it - we're simply saying he'll have had a very fecking good career if he's as highly regarded as Scholes when he retires, which some seem to think is almost guaranteed. We're saying it's not simply guaranteed nor will it be as straight-forward as some think.

If Fabregas is as highly regarded as Scholes when he retires, there's no doubt in my mind he'll have won multiple league titles and European Cups. Scholes is the player Fabregas aspires to be - he's said so himself I'm sure.
 
Kraftwerker said:
Erm, Henry has a medal collection that is almost unrivalled. Is there anything he hasn't won? Such a shit example.

Think back about all the legends of the game. I'm sure you've got your own list in your head. Now pick one who was never an integral member of a very successful side. Your list suddenly becomes very short. Would you like to name them?

Noone's saying Fabregas won't go on and do it - we're simply saying he'll have had a very fecking good career if he's as highly regarded as Scholes when he retires, which some seem to think is almost guaranteed. We're saying it's not simply guaranteed nor will it be as straight-forward as some think.
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So if he reads this thread Fabregas will be off to Barcelona tomorrow to make sure he can be a legend of the game.
 
Christofaux said:
So if he reads this thread Fabregas will be off to Barcelona tomorrow to make sure he can be a legend of the game.
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No. I've already said he has a responsibility to his manager and team, as captain of the club, so he may stay longer than this season. And even if he did go tomorrow, there's still no guarantees of that happening, however good Barcelona look right now.
 
cesc's_mullet said:
The best TEAMS rise to the top and win trophies.

You can't deny Henry isn't one of the best players, if not the, to ever grace the Premiership - and by that rating he should've won the League every single year, according to your logic. He didn't though, thanks to team failings.
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Eh?

You're either being very silly, or you've not grasped what my logic is
 
Gio said:
He's not on their level yet, as evidenced by his role for the national team which has largely been confined to the bench. During the last 18 months Xavi has been head-and-shoulders above any other central midfielder. Only Iniesta has approached that level of performance - during the second half of last season.
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This.
 
Gooners in getting giddy after a good result shocker :eek:

It's insulting to the ginger genius to even be comparing him to Fabregas at this stage of the Spaniards career, do you even remember how fecking good this lad was/is?

Please get a grip of yourselves, this is embarasing.
 
Psmith said:
Hardly a controversial claim

He's been one of the best midfielders in the world for the last 4 years and he's only 22.
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no he hasn't, he's had a good few world class performances and quite a few shite/average performances, he's not close to xavi, iniesta or, yes, scholes over the past 3 seasons.

Hype from the press and muppets on forums doesn't equate to greatness.
 
These type of debates are always very tedious when the player (Fabregas) is fresh off the back of his best performance in a number of months. Not helped by the fact that the other player being compared is fresh off the back of his worst performance in years (Scholes).

I'd reckon the Gooner's bullishness would be alot more restrained had we discussed this last season when Fabregas' form was patchy at best and average performances were commonplace.
 
that's so typical of cesc, drooling over his players (arshavin,nasri,vermaelen ...).Cesc will have to proove a lot more than this start of this season to even reach Scholes at his best.
At times it makes you wonder if some truly realize who Scholes is and was on top of his game
 
He wasn't very good at the Euros. Spain were so good that anyone who would walk into their line up would have to be really poor to look bad. He wasn't even a first choice starter. Impact player.

Overall he's a good player but a little overrated. He hasn't been one of the best midfielders in the world over the last four years. He's been 'at his best' one of the best. And no, he isn't as good as Xavi or Iniesta.

Mind you, I do rate him very highly and for me he's one of the most talented footballers in the world game. But he has some way to go to draw comparison to the best in the business. On his day he can be magnificent.
 
rednev said:
Arsenal fans are deluded if they think Fabregas (a Barca fan from Barcelona) would not want a move to Barcelona (a bigger and better club than Arsenal) if they came in with an offer.
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One point that hasn't been made in this thread but makes all the difference about when and why Cesc will go to Barca is his relationship with Wenger, which is quite strong. It's easy to imagine Cesc staying at Arsenal as long as Wenger does.

Boss said:
Didn't Barca want to spend 50 Million on Henry before he decided to stay one more season? It was to be a transfer record and a ridiculous sum of money back then. They also wanted David Beckham before he went to Madrid so they got Ronaldinho instead which turned out to be beautiful, but he was not their first objective.

Just like Madrid they are a club ran by politics and elections and anybody who thinks they don't want to sway Fabregas to come to them are deluded. It has already been outlined by the directors as pretty much an objective for next season.

Their players talk about Fabregas all the time in the same way, Madrid players used to talk about Ronaldo without any regard for Arsenal. Last week was it not Xavi? Yes Barca produce world class talents but they still like to sign galaticos of their own to impress. Different toilet, same shit.
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One thing about the current incarnation of Barca, though, is that Guardiola seems committed to keeping space in his squad to allow the youth players room to advance. He was the B-team manager only two years ago, after all.

It seems to me that Guardiola's Barca is fundamentally different from Perez's Madrid.

Brad said:
That's not 'hasn't always got it wrong' though, that's plucking arguably the greatest keeper the world has ever seen from relative obscurity
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I hope you don't have a post in this thread accusing Gooner's of unreasonable bias in how they rate Fabregas.

Yashin? Zoff? Heck, Banks or Meier?

(Don't get me wrong though - Schmeichel was unbelievably good.)
 
amolbhatia100 said:
He wasn't very good at the Euros. Spain were so good that anyone who would walk into their line up would have to be really poor to look bad. He wasn't even a first choice starter. Impact player.

Overall he's a good player but a little overrated. He hasn't been one of the best midfielders in the world over the last four years. He's been 'at his best' one of the best. And no, he isn't as good as Xavi or Iniesta.

Mind you, I do rate him very highly and for me he's one of the most talented footballers in the world game. But he has some way to go to draw comparison to the best in the business. On his day he can be magnificent.
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A 19-20 year old Fabregas has ran the midfield and won big CL games against Real Madrid, Juventus and Milan repeated the same against United and Pool in the league albeit not playing along with too many great players. How many times have you ever seen a 19-20 year old Xavi pull out performances like that. Also Xavi established himself only around 2004, its five years of top flight football for him whilst a 22 year old Fabregas already has three or four very good seasons behind him.

He came as a sub in the Euros and played well in the time offered. Any team having Xavi and Fabregas can always take the luxury of playing one each in either half - Fabregas replaced Xavi after nearly 60 minutes of play on an average.
 
vijay said:
A 19-20 year old Fabregas has ran the midfield and won big CL games against Real Madrid, Juventus and Milan repeated the same against United and Pool in the league albeit playing along with too many great players. .
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You're wasting your time, most of these dickheads think Gerrard is a far superior CM and Man Utd have an 'embarrassment of riches in CM'.
 
peterstorey said:
You're wasting your time, most of these dickheads think Gerrard is a far superior CM and Man Utd have an 'embarrassment of riches in CM'.
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Nobody has ever claimed that, but we have a confident looking midfield gelling in especially with Fletcher's form this season, if we manage to replace Scholes, ideally with the player we are rambling on here, there is nothing much to complain about our midfield.
 
peterstorey said:
You're wasting your time, most of these dickheads think Gerrard is a far superior CM and Man Utd have an 'embarrassment of riches in CM'.
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Er, hardly anyone on here rates Gerrard that highly as a CM. Quite the opposite.

And whilst the second comment is not true, and nor has anyone claimed such, the way Fletcher and co have shat all over your midfield the last couple of seasons doesn't exactly support your sarcasm.

Cue some bitter rubbish about non-existent Fletcher fouls. :lol:
 
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