Fabregas, Barcelona, & Badge Kissing.

Jopub said:
Complete idiot

Go on try and convince us that both Iniesta and Xavi have been world class for ten years


......We're waiting Bradley
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Given he's only 25, would be silly to make such claims about Iniesta. But to claim it's only the last year or so he's been a top quality player... just not true

As for Xavi... being an integral part of the Barca side for a decade says something for the lad I'd have thought. He was arguably their best player even when they were going through their crap spell with all the Dutch. All depends on your definition of 'world class' really. Much like Scholes at United, even at a young age I'm sure Barca fans wouldn't have swapped him for anyone else

What you're doing is the equivalent of some clueless chap coming up and saying Fabregas aint all that yet. He is, his performances for Arsenal are great, and he's one of the best players in his position in the game. Much like Xavi was at a similar age and has gone on to consolidate. My only point of contention with Arsenal supporters in this thread is the assumption that it's a given he'll be better than Paul Scholes
 
Brad said:
Given he's only 25, would be silly to make such claims about Iniesta. But to claim it's only the last year or so he's been a top quality player... just not true

As for Xavi... being an integral part of the Barca side for a decade says something for the lad I'd have thought. He was arguably their best player even when they were going through their crap spell with all the Dutch. All depends on your definition of 'world class' really. Much like Scholes at United, even at a young age I'm sure Barca fans wouldn't have swapped him for anyone else

What you're doing is the equivalent of some clueless chap coming up and saying Fabregas aint all that yet. He is, his performances for Arsenal are great, and he's one of the best players in his position in the game. Much like Xavi was at a similar age and has gone on to consolidate. My only point of contention with Arsenal supporters in this thread is the assumption that it's a given he'll be better than Paul Scholes
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Iniesta has only been this good for maybe a year and a half imo and befer that he was good + but not a lot more than that

Xavi has not been at the top for as long as you said earlier I think you mentioned as back as 1999 ! but under Guardiola he has blossomed

There's a lot of talk as if these two have been running the worlds greatest midfield for ten years - they havent. They've been brilliant for a season and a half and very good for a season and a half before that and before that Xavi was a good player and thats it

Dont put words in my mouth what I said and what your saying i said is two different things. Fabregas 'is all that'

Both the Spaniards at Barca are at the peak of their games and Fabregas is only a little way off that and I expect him to be better than both of them which for me would start to take him to where Paul Scholes was at his best.

Scholes has been a fine player and it will take a lot for Fabregas to match him.

Personally that's a big ask as it is also dependant on whom he's playing with. If he carries only playing alongside Song and Denilson I dont think he will fullfill his massive potential which is why Wenger is taking a huge risk here

 
You are not going to have much luck reasoning with him Jo, he is a bigger looney than you ;)
 
Jopub said:
Iniesta has only been this good for maybe a year and a half imo and befer that he was good + but not a lot more than that

Xavi has not been at the top for as long as you said earlier I think you mentioned as back as 1999 ! but under Guardiola he has blossomed

There's a lot of talk as if these two have been running the worlds greatest midfield for ten years - they havent. They've been brilliant for a season and a half and very good for a season and a half before that and before that Xavi was a good player and thats it

Dont put words in my mouth what I said and what your saying i said is two different things. Fabregas 'is all that'

Both the Spaniards at Barca are at the peak of their games and Fabregas is only a little way off that and I expect him to be better than both of them which for me would start to take him to where Paul Scholes was at his best.

Scholes has been a fine player and it will take a lot for Fabregas to match him.

Personally that's a big ask as it is also dependant on whom he's playing with. If he carries only playing alongside Song and Denilson I dont think he will fullfill his massive potential which is why Wenger is taking a huge risk here

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And to what do I owe this font change?! Is that especially for me? Aww

Xavi has been a very good player, and that's why he's racked up almost 500 appearances in that time for Barcelona. You don't last very long there unless you're one of the best around. Much like Scholes at United. I don't think people give due respect sometimes to just how difficult it is to maintain and improve on a standard, and endure in successful teams over such a period

For me it's not so much that Xavi has improved so much through his time at Barca, although of course he will have done through experience, rather that Barca under better managers have found the right balance and way of playing around him. As a result he becomes more influential. But he's always been a top top player, and I expect if there were any Barca fans on here, they'd tell the same story

As for the Scholes / Fabregas thing, you're far more sensible on that than some of the other Gooners who've spoken about it in this thread, some of whom are clearly underrating just what a player Paul Scholes has been
 
Raees said:
During 05/06..Fabregas masterminded Arsenals run to the Champions League final, during 07/08.. he was supreme and Arsenal should've won that years premiership if Gallas hadn't fecked it up and Eduardo's injury.

If Fabregas was playing for us, he'd have won shit loads of trophies by now..so let's not underestimate this kid's talent based purely on his trophy cabinet or lack of it. Would Scholes/Xavi at the same age have had more of an impact at a team like Arsenal where they would be expected to be the main creative force?
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Umm, a few points:

1) I think you'll find that a certain Thierry Henry had a little something to do with them getting to the CL Final. I don't know if you've heard of him. Plays for Barcelona.

2) Eduardo was a bit part player that season, but became a convenient excuse for their emotional collapse. His 'goalscoring' then became the myth to hang their failure on when the media grabbed up the 'weak Arsenal' angle again (and rightly so).

3) Gallas was the captain that led them into a position to be top of the table with such a rousing start. Then it is Gallas' fault when things go wrong? It was the next season when Gallas had a strop and was stripped of the captaincy.

Brad said:
Is this the Eduardo that had scored 4 goals in 17 league games to that point sorry?

Score in his sleep you say?
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Correctamundo.

Eduardo is a great player. But at the time he was a bit part player, and his injury merely provided them the excuse to emotionally collapse.

Fabregas is a fantastic player - one of the world's best right now. But he is young and not at the level that some are pretending his is and has been.
 
The main reason Arsenal got to the Champions League final in 2006 was an adherence to some pretty defensive football and craven tactics. Three 0-0 second legs, and only 4 goals scored in the knock-out rounds in total. Their defence was rock solid that year, and that's the main reason they got to the final.
 
Kraftwerker said:
The main reason Arsenal got to the Champions League final in 2006 was an adherence to some pretty defensive football and craven tactics. Three 0-0 second legs, and only 4 goals scored in the knock-out rounds in total. Their defence was rock solid that year, and that's the main reason they got to the final.
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You'd know all about using craven tactics in the CL. I remember us outplaying Real in the Bernabeu unlike your shameful effort at the Nou Camp.
 
Kraftwerker said:
The main reason Arsenal got to the Champions League final in 2006 was an adherence to some pretty defensive football and craven tactics. Three 0-0 second legs, and only 4 goals scored in the knock-out rounds in total. Their defence was rock solid that year, and that's the main reason they got to the final.
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I think Arsenal played some great football during that campaign. It's not quite what will appear on the record books but it's true.
 
peterstorey said:
You'd know all about using craven tactics in the CL. I remember us outplaying Real in the Bernabeu unlike your shameful effort at the Nou Camp.
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Yes, your one admirable performance, against a Real side who mastered the art of crashing out of the CL at the first hurdle to ordinary opponents. Your tactics in El Madrigal against Villarreal(!) were alot more shameful than us against Barcelona in the Nou Camp.

Anyway, I knew that one would get a few bites. Wasn't expecting you so quick though PS. ;)
 
Kraftwerker said:
Yes, your one admirable performance, against a Real side who mastered the art of crashing out of the CL at the first hurdle to ordinary opponents. Your tactics in El Madrigal against Villareal(!) were alot more shameful than us against Barcelona in the Nou Camp.

Anyway, I knew that one would get a few bites. Wasn't expecting you so quick though PS. ;)
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Faster than a parked bus.
 
We didn't set out to play that way unlike some people I could mention, we just met Riquelme on a going day. Jens was a pretty good keeper barring the odd psycho incident.
 
peterstorey said:
We didn't set out to play that way unlike some people I could mention, we just met Riquelme on a going day. Jens was a pretty good keeper barring the odd psycho incident.
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Neither did we at the Nou Camp, otherwise we wouldn't have gone two up top and played all three of Rooney, Tevez, and Ronaldo. We took the game to them initially and should have scored, only for Ronaldo to uncharacteristically sky his penalty. We were shell-shocked after that (as often happens when you waste a big opportunity in those type of games) and got out-played by a Barcelona side boasting ten times the talent of Villareal. You know yours is alot worse - you were literally hanging on against a side who were vastly inferior to you and you owe it all to Lehmann. Barcelona were at least our equal (with better attacking talent IMO), which makes it alot less shameful.
 
Bearded but no genius said:
Umm, a few points:

1) I think you'll find that a certain Thierry Henry had a little something to do with them getting to the CL Final. I don't know if you've heard of him. Plays for Barcelona.

2) Eduardo was a bit part player that season, but became a convenient excuse for their emotional collapse. His 'goalscoring' then became the myth to hang their failure on when the media grabbed up the 'weak Arsenal' angle again (and rightly so).

3) Gallas was the captain that led them into a position to be top of the table with such a rousing start. Then it is Gallas' fault when things go wrong? It was the next season when Gallas had a strop and was stripped of the captaincy.



Correctamundo.

Eduardo is a great player. But at the time he was a bit part player, and his injury merely provided them the excuse to emotionally collapse.

Fabregas is a fantastic player - one of the world's best right now. But he is young and not at the level that some are pretending his is and has been.
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I can't believe I've wasted a few posts even defending the gunners.. Henry clearly played a big role, but he'd been an integral part of previous Arsenal teams and done shit all on the european stage.. Fabregas was the glue that held that Arsenal team together during that run.

Do I think hes better than Scholes? feck do I.. the Ginger Prince is on another level technically, but on a mental level, no-one can doubt that Fabregas' maturity on the big stage in relation to his actual experience was superb and beyond what Xavi would've been capable of at the same age.

However to finish his career and be named alongside the likes of Xavi/Scholes.. he has to win trophies and carry on developing his game, incorporating goals, as well as demonstrating more skill with the ball under pressure.. I believe he has the personality to do so, whether he has the natural ability within him to further his game remains to be seen.

Scholes was a player who could dictate the tempo of a game whilst also scoring crucial game-defining goals.. Xavi more of just a playmaker and allowed other more talented individuals go win the games for Barca..only the past few years has he taken up more of a dominant role within the team set up.

As for the Eduardo bullshit, look though my posts as a whole before you assume that I believe Arsenal deserved that title.. I did elaborate on what the essence of my initial statement was trying to convey..in that particular season Fabregas proved he could be a player on whom to base your title challenge if surrounded by enough quality characters.

As for Brad, you overhype Xavi's contribution.. take the 05/06 season for example when they won the european cup..Xavi tore the ligaments in his left knee in training; he was out of action for five months, missing the majority of the playing season, but returned in April and was on the substitutes bench for the 2006 UEFA Champions League Final. He's a far more important character in the current team.. yes he was still a playmaker back then, but he has far more creative license now.. back then Deco, Ronaldinho provided most of the bullets.

Highlighting the number of their appearances doesn't mean anything to me to be frank, O'shea has had alot of games for United.. doesn't mean he's an influential player.. just means he's a useful component in the team as a whole..Xavi has always been there to help the team tick, but only past few years has he been weaving patterns of play and stamping his authority on games.

As for Iniesta this article says it all about his transformation into a Barcelona superstar... Andrés Iniesta graduates from cameo role to take centre stage at Barcelona | Football | The Observer
 
Kraftwerker said:
The main reason Arsenal got to the Champions League final in 2006 was an adherence to some pretty defensive football and craven tactics. Three 0-0 second legs, and only 4 goals scored in the knock-out rounds in total. Their defence was rock solid that year, and that's the main reason they got to the final.
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Absolute bollocks that statement is and going by that I'd say you probably didn't see much of us to start saying we played defensive football. You know sometimes draws happen in football and doesn't mean we went out with a defensive mentality. One of those draws was against R.Madrid where both keepers put in world class performances and the match was as entertaining as you are gonna get without any goals. We also drew away at Juve which was a good result, it isn't that straight forward going to the home ground of the Italian champions and putting in great attacking performance. We were at times put under pressure but we didn't go out to park the bus or anything like that, we had a very good chances ourselves. Our performance against Villareal was shameful though, no doubt about it and very uncharacteristic going by our CL games that season.
 
JazzG said:
Our performance against Villareal was shameful though, no doubt about it and very uncharacteristic going by our CL games that season.
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Nothing shameful about it we played the same team and tactics as at Real, we just met a very good Villareal side inspired by a monster performance by Riquelme (for 89 mins). Man Utd set up v Barca with Rooney and Park playing as wingbacks and Tevez as a midfield screen.
 
peterstorey said:
Nothing shameful about it we played the same team and tactics as at Real, we just met a very good Villareal side inspired by a monster performance by Riquelme (for 89 mins). Man Utd set up v Barca with Rooney and Park playing as wingbacks and Tevez as a midfield screen.
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You're hilarious peter, you really can't take it can you when it's dished your way. :D
 
I have no problems with the Barca match at all. At least I can admit what happened. Unlike you, I don't need to desperately look for positives in failure, because, well we didn't fail in the end.

Apparently there's nothing shameful about being completely pinned in your own half and embarrassed by Villarreal - that's OK because Riquelme played well - but it is shameful to be embarrassed by Barcelona, who boasted some of the greatest attacking talent of recent times in Messi, Eto'o, Henry, Xavi and Iniesta.

Anyway, don't let me ruin your memories of your glorious failure. :wenger:
 
peterstorey said:
Nothing shameful about it we played the same team and tactics as at Real, we just met a very good Villareal side inspired by a monster performance by Riquelme (for 89 mins). Man Utd set up v Barca with Rooney and Park playing as wingbacks and Tevez as a midfield screen.
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I'm not saying we went out to play like that but our general performance was a joke. Many players on the were well below par and that almost cost us the match. In the first leg even though we won our performance levels certainly were well below the kind we showed against R.Madrid and Juve. I think we underestimated Villareal and then were shell shocked when we realised they weren't shit!
 
To cut a long story short,

Xavi has been a very good player for a long time now. Fabregas has been a very good player for around three years.

Xavi has been the best midfielder in the world for around 2 or 3 years now. Fabregas has never been the best midfielder in the world.

IMO Fabregas can be the best CM in the world and should match Xavi should he join Barca and improve his consistency (which he will). Iniesta can be even better and in the Ronaldo-Messi tier of best footballers in world football, if he fulfills his potential.
 
Brad said:
And to what do I owe this font change?! Is that especially for me? Aww

Xavi has been a very good player, and that's why he's racked up almost 500 appearances in that time for Barcelona. You don't last very long there unless you're one of the best around. Much like Scholes at United. I don't think people give due respect sometimes to just how difficult it is to maintain and improve on a standard, and endure in successful teams over such a period

For me it's not so much that Xavi has improved so much through his time at Barca, although of course he will have done through experience, rather that Barca under better managers have found the right balance and way of playing around him. As a result he becomes more influential. But he's always been a top top player, and I expect if there were any Barca fans on here, they'd tell the same story

As for the Scholes / Fabregas thing, you're far more sensible on that than some of the other Gooners who've spoken about it in this thread, some of whom are clearly underrating just what a player Paul Scholes has been
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Yeah cant work out that font business on my PC, there's bits in italics but cant work out why
 
amolbhatia100 said:
To cut a long story short,

Xavi has been a very good player for a long time now. Fabregas has been a very good player for around three years.

Xavi has been the best midfielder in the world for around 2 or 3 years now. Fabregas has never been the best midfielder in the world.

IMO Fabregas can be the best CM in the world and should match Xavi should he join Barca and improve his consistency (which he will). Iniesta can be even better and in the Ronaldo-Messi tier of best footballers in world football, if he fulfills his potential.
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Xavi has been a very good player only from around 2005, approximately the same time as Fabregas.

But the last 2 or 3 years he has taken his game to another level.
 
Jopub said:
Iniesta has only been this good for maybe a year and a half imo and befer that he was good + but not a lot more than that

Xavi has not been at the top for as long as you said earlier I think you mentioned as back as 1999 ! but under Guardiola he has blossomed

There's a lot of talk as if these two have been running the worlds greatest midfield for ten years - they havent. They've been brilliant for a season and a half and very good for a season and a half before that and before that Xavi was a good player and thats it

Dont put words in my mouth what I said and what your saying i said is two different things. Fabregas 'is all that'

Both the Spaniards at Barca are at the peak of their games and Fabregas is only a little way off that and I expect him to be better than both of them which for me would start to take him to where Paul Scholes was at his best.

Scholes has been a fine player and it will take a lot for Fabregas to match him.

Personally that's a big ask as it is also dependant on whom he's playing with. If he carries only playing alongside Song and Denilson I dont think he will fullfill his massive potential which is why Wenger is taking a huge risk here

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Rubbish
 
Brad said:
Given he's only 25, would be silly to make such claims about Iniesta. But to claim it's only the last year or so he's been a top quality player... just not true

As for Xavi... being an integral part of the Barca side for a decade says something for the lad I'd have thought. He was arguably their best player even when they were going through their crap spell with all the Dutch. All depends on your definition of 'world class' really. Much like Scholes at United, even at a young age I'm sure Barca fans wouldn't have swapped him for anyone else

What you're doing is the equivalent of some clueless chap coming up and saying Fabregas aint all that yet. He is, his performances for Arsenal are great, and he's one of the best players in his position in the game. Much like Xavi was at a similar age and has gone on to consolidate. My only point of contention with Arsenal supporters in this thread is the assumption that it's a given he'll be better than Paul Scholes
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Now you're surpassing joepub, Barcelona was a whole were medicore if not crap, the best players then were Kluivert, Saviola, Puyol, along with a crocked up Sorin and Davids.

Just sums up the quality of the rest.

Xavi was never ever one of the best players around before 2005/2006 season and arguably Fabregas fared better than him during that period.
 
vijay said:
Now you're surpassing joepub, Barcelona was a whole were medicore if not crap, the best players then were Kluivert, Saviola, Puyol, along with a crocked up Sorin and Davids.

Just sums up the quality of the rest.

Xavi was never ever one of the best players around before 2005/2006 season and arguably Fabregas fared better than him during that period.
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Yeah all the league titles that Fabregas won and the European Cup that Fabregas won backs that up, Oh wait....
 
vijay said:
Now you're surpassing joepub, Barcelona was a whole were medicore if not crap, the best players then were Kluivert, Saviola, Puyol, along with a crocked up Sorin and Davids.

Just sums up the quality of the rest.

Xavi was never ever one of the best players around before 2005/2006 season and arguably Fabregas fared better than him during that period.
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So are you saying Fábregas outperformed Xavi during that period?
 
vijay said:

Rubbish
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Eh

Hang on I said this :

Iniesta has only been this good for maybe a year and a half imo and befer that he was good + but not a lot more than that

Xavi has not been at the top for as long as you said earlier I think you mentioned as back as 1999 ! but under Guardiola he has blossomed

There's a lot of talk as if these two have been running the worlds greatest midfield for ten years - they havent. They've been brilliant for a season and a half and very good for a season and a half before that and before that Xavi was a good player and thats it

And you said this :

Xavi has been a very good player only from around 2005, approximately the same time as Fabregas.

But the last 2 or 3 years he has taken his game to another level.


:wenger: We're both effectively saying the same thing

Are we both talking rubbish or is it only me then :lol: kin idiot
 
vijay said:
Now you're surpassing joepub, Barcelona was a whole were medicore if not crap, the best players then were Kluivert, Saviola, Puyol, along with a crocked up Sorin and Davids.

Just sums up the quality of the rest.

Xavi was never ever one of the best players around before 2005/2006 season and arguably Fabregas fared better than him during that period.
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Erm? I just said it was one of their crapper periods

They were finishing about 4th in La Liga, reaching the knock-out stages of the Champions League

Do I need to draw the parrellels to Fabregas' current situation?

And Xavi was one of their best players during that period. Hence he was one of the few who didn't get shipped out. And has been a fundamental part of Barcelona's renaissance

Very lazy when folk claim Xavi has only recently become a top player. He's just playing in a better side now
 
Fabregas is absolute quality, but i think there is still a little bit more he needs to do to become one of the best players in the world.

If Arsenal lost him, they would collapse.
 
Fabregas has been sensational so far this season, reminds me of his 05/06 & 07/08 seasons.
 
Raees said:
Fabregas has been sensational so far this season, reminds me of his 05/06 & 07/08 seasons.
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His 07/08 season, if I remember correctly, started brilliantly with loads of goals and assists, but then he got injured about halfway through and became totally invisible for the rest of the season.
 
Count Duckula said:
His 07/08 season, if I remember correctly, started brilliantly with loads of goals and assists, but then he got injured about halfway through and became totally invisible for the rest of the season.
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Indeed, let's see whether he can keep it up.
 
Cesc had 13 goals and 22 assists in 07/08.
So far this season, he has 8 goals and 12 assists... He looks well on course for his most productive ever season. fecking incredible...

But that's just statistics - his overall play has been even better. Phenomenal player and just 22 years of age.
Fergie, sign him up. :drool:


Taking the muppetry down a notch - is his incredible form this season due to Arsenal's new formation? He has a lot of freedom in their new fluid 4-3-3 system. Or is he simply developing into one of the world's best players?
Probably a combination of the two.
 
johnmufc said:
Cesc had 13 goals and 22 assists in 07/08.
So far this season, he has 8 goals and 12 assists... He looks well on course for his most productive ever season. fecking incredible...

But that's just statistics - his overall play has been even better. Phenomenal player and just 22 years of age.
Fergie, sign him up. :drool:
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Truly destined to be a world-class CM, he's the Scholes-replacement we always wanted:(
 
johnmufc said:
Cesc had 13 goals and 22 assists in 07/08.
So far this season, he has 8 goals and 12 assists... He looks well on course for his most productive ever season. fecking incredible...

But that's just statistics - his overall play has been even better. Phenomenal player and just 22 years of age.
Fergie, sign him up. :drool:


Taking the muppetry down a notch - is his incredible form this season due to Arsenal's new formation? He has a lot of freedom in their new fluid 4-3-3 system. Or is he simply developing into one of the world's best players?
Probably a combination of the two.
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I'd say yes, and it helps when he's finally got that ball-winning midfielder he can rely on in Song (who's been excellent himself, all season).

Playing the new formation allows him to express himself some more. It's definitely a combination of the two though, as he's worked hard on his turn of pace, dribbling and shooting/finishing - the boy looks like he's been ironing out the deficiencies in his game.
 
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