F1 2024 Season

[Cheimoon]

Id rather be in Max's position with 7 races to go than Norris's. Max is still the favorite by some margin. If the gap comes down to under 30 points then all bets are off.

Elephant in the room still hasn't been addressed, where did the dominate RedBull pace at start of season go?

According to an article in my newspaper yesterday, the Red Bull had floor problems already a lot the end of last year, causing a disconnect between front and rear behaviour. That's gradually become worse through their upgrades (well, downgrades) over the course of this year.

Previously, that affected Pérez much more than Verstappen, since Verstappen was better able to work with it and get top performances anyway. But it's by now come to a point where he can't compensate anymore either, which supposedly explains why their performances aren't as far apart anymore.

Apparently, the Red Bull floor is super complex, much more than other teams. And they also have a year or cumulative upgrades to consider to find where they went wrong. So there's no easy fix, it's difficult to pinpoint the exact issue.

I was thinking that leads to two takeaways. One, Verstappen has a decent chance of suddenly getting his car back. It's not a certainty by a stretch, but there's a lot of potential in the car that can be unlocked by the right fix, probably more than for anyone else. If that happens, Norris's current advantage might be largely gone again.

And second, maybe Newey got this wrong as well. He's been gone for a while of course, but if the problems really did start last year, then he was still part of the team when they started going down the wrong path. It's obviously impossible to actually know who's responsible for what exactly, though.

 

[dinostar77]

According to an article in my newspaper yesterday, the Red Bull had floor problems already a lot the end of last year, causing a disconnect between front and rear behaviour. That's gradually become worse through their upgrades (well, downgrades) over the course of this year.

Previously, that affected Pérez much more than Verstappen, since Verstappen was better able to work with it and get top performances anyway. But it's by now come to a point where he can't compensate anymore either, which supposedly explains why their performances aren't as far apart anymore.

Apparently, the Red Bull floor is super complex, much more than other teams. And they also have a year or cumulative upgrades to consider to find where they went wrong. So there's no easy fix, it's difficult to pinpoint the exact issue.

I was thinking that leads to two takeaways. One, Verstappen has a decent chance of suddenly getting his car back. It's not a certainty by a stretch, but there's a lot of potential in the car that can be unlocked by the right fix, probably more than for anyone else. If that happens, Norris's current advantage might be largely gone again.

And second, maybe Newey got this wrong as well. He's been gone for a while of course, but if the problems really did start last year, then he was still part of the team when they started going down the wrong path. It's obviously impossible to actually know who's responsible for what exactly, though.

Red Bull created this problem themselves inadvertently. The entire grid expected them to evolve the 23 car design, but they went hyper aggressive with a new design by weisch and balbao, against the advice of Adrian Newey. Horner said a few races ago that they made the car too complex and need to go back to basics. I expect next year's car to be an evolution of the 23 car not the 24 car.

However until they resolve the wind tunnel discrepancy they are going to struggle. Those sort of issues can take 12-18 months to resolve. It too Mercedes nearly two seasons. Back in 2018 it took RedBull the entire season to resolve.

The car seems to be going towards Perez style of driving by accident (under steering), which Verstappen hates and is the opposite to how he likes the car to drive (over steering and correcting mid corner).

I get the competition caught up and RedBull's over complex design plus wind tunnel issues have got them into this situation, but I've not seen a team drop off this much since the brawn double diffuser.

Its absolutely fascinating to watch and has brought a championship challenge to this season that McLaren and Norris seem determined to feck up.

 

[Sassy Colin]

Exciting race, of course, but street circuits are shite. Another one next week, meh

Monaco gets away with it, because it's an iconic setting, but still, not great, really.

 

[Cheimoon]

Red Bull created this problem themselves inadvertently. The entire grid expected them to evolve the 23 car design, but they went hyper aggressive with a new design by weisch and balbao, against the advice of Adrian Newey. Horner said a few races ago that they made the car too complex and need to go back to basics. I expect next year's car to be an evolution of the 23 car not the 24 car.

However until they resolve the wind tunnel discrepancy they are going to struggle. Those sort of issues can take 12-18 months to resolve. It too Mercedes nearly two seasons. Back in 2018 it took RedBull the entire season to resolve.

The car seems to be going towards Perez style of driving by accident (under steering), which Verstappen hates and is the opposite to how he likes the car to drive (over steering and correcting mid corner).

I get the competition caught up and RedBull's over complex design plus wind tunnel issues have got them into this situation, but I've not seen a team drop off this much since the brawn double diffuser.

Its absolutely fascinating to watch and has brought a championship challenge to this season that McLaren and Norris seem determined to feck up.

Yeah, and apparently they get different data from the wind tunnel, simulations, and actual driving, and they don't understand why that's happening either. But they did say in the article that the issues did already start showing up at the end of last year; they didn't just start this year.

 

[rimaldo]

Norris got on the radio to complain about Max overtaking him (giving him a thumbs up) after the race under VSC while they were driving slowly. Hamilton and Russell would be proud. Why do English drivers always try to feck other drivers over at every opportunity?

it’s called integrity and respect for the rules. wouldn’t expect a johnny foreigner to understand that though.

 

[pacifictheme]

Norris got on the radio to complain about Max overtaking him (giving him a thumbs up) after the race under VSC while they were driving slowly. Hamilton and Russell would be proud. Why do English drivers always try to feck other drivers over at every opportunity?

They all fecking do this. English drivers come on.

 

[redshaw]

That was a super drive from Piastri. He's very good at defending, breaking the slipstream just enough and getting back to the inside line. Also kept fast pace while managing his tyres well, he's learned quickly to drive smoother than last year I think, very smart boy indeed.

 

[dinostar77]

Yeah, and apparently they get different data from the wind tunnel, simulations, and actual driving, and they don't understand why that's happening either. But they did say in the article that the issues did already start showing up at the end of last year; they didn't just start this year.

if you could post link to article, i would like to read it. thanks.

 

[Cheimoon]

if you could post link to article, i would like to read it. thanks.

https://www.volkskrant.nl/sport/het...waar-ging-het-mis-met-deze-topwagen~b0f710a3/

The Dutch you can get translated, but it's possible it's behind a paywall.

 

[ArjenIsM3]

They all fecking do this. English drivers come on.

Nah, sure most will get on the radio about a dodgy overtake or something like that if they genuinely (rightly or wrongly) feel they've been wronged, usually it's an emotional response, but the obvious trying to feck others over by backhanded whining about stuff like track limits from other drivers (usually when they themselves are the ones doing it) is something Hamilton was famous for while battling Max, and Russell picked it up quickly after joining Mercedes. Now it's Norris with this completely unnecessary whining about something that literally happens all the time, isn't dangerous at all and doesn't negatively affect him or anybody else one bit as the race is already over. There's one reason why you'd get on the radio about it and that's because you're trying to get somebody a penalty to your benefit. It's distasteful, at best. And this is coming from somebody who likes Norris. End rant

 

[Abizzz]

Nah, sure most will get on the radio about a dodgy overtake or something like that if they genuinely (rightly or wrongly) feel they've been wronged, usually it's an emotional response, but the obvious trying to feck others over by backhanded whining about stuff like track limits from other drivers (usually when they themselves are the ones doing it) is something Hamilton was famous for while battling Max, and Russell picked it up quickly after joining Mercedes. Now it's Norris with this completely unnecessary whining about something that literally happens all the time, isn't dangerous at all and doesn't negatively affect him or anybody else one bit as the race is already over. There's one reason why you'd get on the radio about it and that's because you're trying to get somebody a penalty to your benefit. It's distasteful, at best. And this is coming from somebody who likes Norris. End rant

Yeah either that or Max is famous for using off track tarmac so much that they reintroduced gravel pits and locked down on track limits the season later...

 

[ArjenIsM3]

Yeah either that or Max is famous for using off track tarmac so much that they reintroduced gravel pits and locked down on track limits the season later...

Yes I'm sure they did that because of Max

 

[Abizzz]

Yes I'm sure they did that because of Max

Not only him but he was arguably the best at doing it. Max is a great driver and looks for any advantage he can get, if going off track is tolerated and faster he will do it. No judgement in saying that. If anything the likes of Lewis, Seb and Fernando should have picked it up earlier themselves when the tarmac was put down in so many spaces ~15-10 years ago.

 

[pacifictheme]

Nah, sure most will get on the radio about a dodgy overtake or something like that if they genuinely (rightly or wrongly) feel they've been wronged, usually it's an emotional response, but the obvious trying to feck others over by backhanded whining about stuff like track limits from other drivers (usually when they themselves are the ones doing it) is something Hamilton was famous for while battling Max, and Russell picked it up quickly after joining Mercedes. Now it's Norris with this completely unnecessary whining about something that literally happens all the time, isn't dangerous at all and doesn't negatively affect him or anybody else one bit as the race is already over. There's one reason why you'd get on the radio about it and that's because you're trying to get somebody a penalty to your benefit. It's distasteful, at best. And this is coming from somebody who likes Norris. End rant

This is proper tin foil hat stuff. Alonso also did it today after the race.

 

[dinostar77]

https://www.volkskrant.nl/sport/het...waar-ging-het-mis-met-deze-topwagen~b0f710a3/

The Dutch you can get translated, but it's possible it's behind a paywall.

Thanks, managed to read it. Shame it's behind a paywall and in Dutch (for those of us who can't read dutch).

Interesting article, makes more sense of Perez struggles in latter half of season last year.

Singapore looks like being the key race for the title then. Norris has to win and hope the RedBull is undrivable around there. With understeer going into a corner and oversteer on exit and no fix at the earliest till Austin (race after Singapore), there's a chance the best Verstappen could do, would be 6th - 10th position. McLaren and Ferrari should still be very quick around there. Mercedes thermal deg issues might slow them down again. Singapore has been a weak track for RedBull under these rules and that's when they were rapid.

Personally I don't see how Redbull fixes this issue in a few GPs. Where do you begin when the front and rear are disconnected? Do you need to make changes to the front wing? Or the venturi tunnels on the floor? Or the beam wing? Or the rear wing?

I know I'll use my simulator to help me. Oh I can't cause there's a correlation issue.

This is going to be a rollercoaster of a 7 GP run in...

 

[Redplane]

*puts on tinfoil hat* the gap to Max will close to about 30 pts and *suddenly* Red Bull rediscovers its pace.

 

[Cheimoon]

Thanks, managed to read it. Shame it's behind a paywall and in Dutch (for those of us who can't read dutch).

Interesting article, makes more sense of Perez struggles in latter half of season last year.

Singapore looks like being the key race for the title then. Norris has to win and hope the RedBull is undrivable around there. With understeer going into a corner and oversteer on exit and no fix at the earliest till Austin (race after Singapore), there's a chance the best Verstappen could do, would be 6th - 10th position. McLaren and Ferrari should still be very quick around there. Mercedes thermal deg issues might slow them down again. Singapore has been a weak track for RedBull under these rules and that's when they were rapid.

Personally I don't see how Redbull fixes this issue in a few GPs. Where do you begin when the front and rear are disconnected? Do you need to make changes to the front wing? Or the venturi tunnels on the floor? Or the beam wing? Or the rear wing?

I know I'll use my simulator to help me. Oh I can't cause there's a correlation issue.

This is going to be a rollercoaster of a 7 GP run in...

Don't Red Bull anyway always do poorly in Singapore? So that should be doubly hard for them now.

I don't suppose Red Bull can properly fix their issues this season, but I suppose that, through a lot of trial and error, they might stumble into something that works well enough. Like, 'I have no idea what just happened, but nobody touch the car anymore until the end of the season!'

It definitely makes for an interesting end of the season. A very competitive grid and no idea what kind of Red Bull car will show up each time. Quite different from the predictability of the first few races.

 

[Ahmer Baig]

McLaren once again under scrutiny for front and rear flexi wing.

 

[Ahmer Baig]

 

[dinostar77]

McLaren once again under scrutiny for front and rear flexi wing.

Its probably perfectly legal and within the parameters of the legality box for the rar wing. Its F1 after all, innovation is the name of the game.

 

[Redplane]

Its probably perfectly legal and within the parameters of the legality box for the rar wing. Its F1 after all, innovation is the name of the game.

Is this the same @dinostar77 who would be screaming bloody murder if Red Bull was under scrutiny?

 

[ArjenIsM3]

Saw this on another forum

 

[Dan_F]

Only reason Perez was challenging for the podium was because McLaren/Norris messed up qualifying and Mercedes (Hamilton especially, also due to starting from the pits) weren't that good today.

Which are the kind of things that will happen throughout the remaining races because it always does in F1. It’s fine, I understand the bias.

Lando definitely can’t afford many more weekends like that. I think if it was Lewis or even role reversal and it was Max in that McLaren, it would be far more of a 50/50, but I’m not convinced Norris is good enough to take 60 points off Max in seven races, even in a quicker car.

 

[rimaldo]

Saw this on another forum

you were only too happy when the fia were changing the rules on the fly when the outcome suited you. you reap what you sow.

 

[ArjenIsM3]

Which are the kind of things that will happen throughout the remaining races because it always does in F1. It’s fine, I understand the bias.

Lando definitely can’t afford many more weekends like that. I think if it was Lewis or even role reversal and it was Max in that McLaren, it would be far more of a 50/50, but I’m not convinced Norris is good enough to take 60 points off Max in seven races, even in a quicker car.

I don't expect McLaren to keep fecking it up and as we've seen even if they practically start last their car is fast enough to easily get back into the points. Looks like they have the constructor's championship in the bag to be honest. Ferrari have been very good these last two races as well. Mercedes I don't really see challenging for the top spot unless they bring some updates that work properly but that car too has been faster than the Red Bull two races in a row. So if things remain the same for the rest of the season and Red Bull don't find anything, Red Bull are finishing 7th and 8th unless at least one of McLaren, Ferrari and Mercedes mess up. Say each race one of these teams fecks up somehow which could well happen as you say, that puts Red Bull 5th and 6th. But you still need two of the 3 teams to feck up to get top 4. Then there's the fact that the next race is Singapore, a track Red Bull usually struggle at. I don't see them getting a result there.

I honestly think Red Bull are fecked unless they can fix the car quickly. There are some positive signs for Red Bull though. They've said Perez had a far better setup than Max this weekend. Max had much higher degradation on both the medium and the hard. Max also said they regretted making changes to his car between FP3 and qualifying because the car had felt much better in FP3. It was a gamble that didn't pay off. This pretty much fecked up his weekend while Perez was able to at least challenge for third. So as has been the story of the season it looks like the car does have some pace but they are struggling to unlock it. I think if they can get the car set up right I think it's at least faster than the Mercedes and then you only need one of Ferrari and McLaren to feck up to challenge for the podium. Then there's the Austin update that Red Bull hope fixes some of their issues at least. A lot is riding on that as well. So there's a lot of ifs and buts but there's hope for Red Bull at least.

As for Norris, I completely agree. So far he's not shown to be on the level of Max or prime Lewis. He's fast for sure but he does have a mistake in him. A bit like Leclerc really. He needs to cut those mistakes out for the remaining races to stand a chance of winning.

 

[ArjenIsM3]

you were only too happy when the fia were changing the rules on the fly when the outcome suited you. you reap what you sow.

What are you talking about exactly?

 

[pacifictheme]

Saw this on another forum

The red bull Reddit page?

 

[ArjenIsM3]

The red bull Reddit page?

Nah a Dutch tech website's forum, but yes it's obviously Red Bull biased

 

[pacifictheme]

Ha ha I have seen it on Reddit, possibly after Monza.

I have to admit that I want to see the title go to someone other than max this season. If people think this place is bad for people falling out over F1, Reddit is far worse.

 

[F-Red]

Clear double standard from how the FIA have treated this compared to before. But FIA are front loaded with ex Mercedes employees so of course it’s a rigged game.

Who are the ex-Mercedes employees?

 

[Dan_F]

I don't expect McLaren to keep fecking it up and as we've seen even if they practically start last their car is fast enough to easily get back into the points. Looks like they have the constructor's championship in the bag to be honest. Ferrari have been very good these last two races as well. Mercedes I don't really see challenging for the top spot unless they bring some updates that work properly but that car too has been faster than the Red Bull two races in a row. So if things remain the same for the rest of the season and Red Bull don't find anything, Red Bull are finishing 7th and 8th unless at least one of McLaren, Ferrari and Mercedes mess up. Say each race one of these teams fecks up somehow which could well happen as you say, that puts Red Bull 5th and 6th. But you still need two of the 3 teams to feck up to get top 4. Then there's the fact that the next race is Singapore, a track Red Bull usually struggle at. I don't see them getting a result there.

I honestly think Red Bull are fecked unless they can fix the car quickly. There are some positive signs for Red Bull though. They've said Perez had a far better setup than Max this weekend. Max had much higher degradation on both the medium and the hard. Max also said they regretted making changes to his car between FP3 and qualifying because the car had felt much better in FP3. It was a gamble that didn't pay off. This pretty much fecked up his weekend while Perez was able to at least challenge for third. So as has been the story of the season it looks like the car does have some pace but they are struggling to unlock it. I think if they can get the car set up right I think it's at least faster than the Mercedes and then you only need one of Ferrari and McLaren to feck up to challenge for the podium. Then there's the Austin update that Red Bull hope fixes some of their issues at least. A lot is riding on that as well. So there's a lot of ifs and buts but there's hope for Red Bull at least.

As for Norris, I completely agree. So far he's not shown to be on the level of Max or prime Lewis. He's fast for sure but he does have a mistake in him. A bit like Leclerc really. He needs to cut those mistakes out for the remaining races to stand a chance of winning.

Max hasn’t finished outside of the top 5 practically all season, so that should be your starting point for what might happen the remaining races. Norris has floated around the top 3 with two race wins all season.

I’m not saying Norris hasn’t got a great chance, Lewis would probably cut down this gap, as shown previously. But the reason Max is still a big favourite in the betting markets is the overall package. Current Car performance favours Norris, but history, experience, driver skill, lack of margin for error, points already in the bank…it all favours Max.

 

[dinostar77]

Is this the same @dinostar77 who would be screaming bloody murder if Red Bull was under scrutiny?

Not anymore, feel sorry for them

In all seriousness any team who innovates with the rules should be commended.

 

[dinostar77]

Max hasn’t finished outside of the top 5 practically all season, so that should be your starting point for what might happen the remaining races. Norris has floated around the top 3 with two race wins all season.

I’m not saying Norris hasn’t got a great chance, Lewis would probably cut down this gap, as shown previously. But the reason Max is still a big favourite in the betting markets is the overall package. Current Car performance favours Norris, but history, experience, driver skill, lack of margin for error, points already in the bank…it all favours Max.

Agree that Norris doesn't have the killer instinct that Hamilton and Verstappen have if the roles were reversed. They would be closer in points if they were chasing. Soap opera bullshit like McLaren did in Hungary wouldn't wash with either of them. Plus they would both turn the screw to 10 on their team to ensure WDC was put above any teammate parity nonsense.

McLaren and Norris will stop Norris winning. Though I don't see Norris bringing the gap down below 30 points.

 

[pauldyson1uk]

Red Bull considering removing Newey from F1 support team:

- Red Bull is believed to be considering standing down Adrian Newey from his final scheduled F1 weekends with the team after Aston Martin's unprecedented unveiling of the still-under-contract chief technology officer.

- The 65-year-old is set to leave Red Bull, the reigning constructors' champions, for Aston Martin in early 2025 after nearly two decades with the team.

- The manner of Aston Martin's press conference, along with a Q&A session confirming Newey’s future role as managing technical partner, is thought to have unsettled Red Bull.

- Christian Horner, Red Bull's team principal, stated that Aston Martin chose to "celebrate" the marquee signing "prematurely," noting that Newey remains under contract with Red Bull until 1 March next year.

- Newey has already moved away from the design and development of the RB20 and is currently focused on the RB17 hypercar project, which was unveiled at Goodwood in July.

- Despite his departure from F1 design duties, Newey was scheduled to attend select races for trackside support this season, such as Miami and Monaco, which occurred after his planned exit from Red Bull was made public.

- His next F1 race weekend is scheduled for the United States Grand Prix in October. However, it’s understood that Red Bull prefers Newey to prioritize the RB17 project and potentially skip the Austin race.

- Red Bull is still weighing the decision, and whether Newey will attend the Texas race remains undecided.

#redbullracing
#astonmartinf1

VIA: [RacingNews365]