While Merc have no chance due to their fundamentally flawed concept, I think Ferrari might at least have a chance to get their shit together under the new leadership and AM look promising. Last season started with huge reliability issues for RB as well. They had one or two double DNFs.
F1 2023 Season
- Thread starter pauldyson1uk
- Start date
Talk of the championship being won after on one race is crazy ! but understandable, RB blew the rest of the field way on Sunday, if anything they were the ones sandbagging during qualifying.
Made us think that the teams were closer than than actually are, masterclass from Horner.
Made us think that the teams were closer than than actually are, masterclass from Horner.
'Should' is different from 'will'. They are better than their rivals in pretty much every area, and by having exceptional downforce, not having to push 100% every lap and not being impacted by their rivals tactics/ driving, they will take fewer parts. They have so much in hand that they wont have to spend as much money or need wind tunnel time as much. They look set to dominate for some time.
They probably wont win every race this season, as technical issues, driver error, weather and safety cars will likely play a part at a few races. But with all things controlled, they look set to be the fastest at every race.
I dont think you can judge how good a car will be for a season just from one race. I agree Its very likely it will be. But at least wait for the first aero upgrades to call it.
Another total write off of a season from Mercedes. They will be lucky to be 3rd at this point.
Going to be even easier than last season for Verstappen sadly.
Going to be even easier than last season for Verstappen sadly.
You can’t be giving red bull and max a head start and get away with it, was bad news yesterday seeing leclerc retire and that’s probably added to the look of redbull going to run away with it.
alonso being in a genuine fight I think is just wishful thinking, it all rests on leclerc to make a challenge.
alonso being in a genuine fight I think is just wishful thinking, it all rests on leclerc to make a challenge.
More like they’ve no choice to double down because changing their design would effectively mean giving up the season.
At least right now they know that there’s some tracks that are suitable for them and they’ll try their best to improve on other tracks.
Normally I would agree here, but in reality there's no upgrade that can catch up the gap they have to the rest of the field, Verstappen was nearly a second ahead of Leclerc in that first stint. Aero upgrades alone aren't going to find that level of performance, couple of tenths on average.
The RB drivers were then managed to a delta for the rest of the race, with the engines turned down. It's got shades of 2014 Mercedes about Red Bull's performance, and I fully expect Red Bull to start toning down the performance to ensure the FIA doesn't start to take matters into it's own hands to limit performance through technical directives.
Lets look at the positives instead of being all doom and gloom (thats a change for me 
).
Ferrari didnt run their first choice beam wing in the race or qually as it was flexing too much. Seeing how important beam wing is to the rear of the car, theres more laptime to come from that ferrari for sure when the beam wing is put back in.
Totto said Mercedes update for race 6 will give them three hundredths of a second (0.300) back of laptime. Anything over a quarter of a second improvement is normally seen as a major upgrade. Getting a tenth (0.010) here and there is the norm for upgrades. Getting 0.300 is quite a big improvement. Ok they are still a long way away from RB, but it should bring them closer to ferrari and AM.
The big three have some competition. For once an adrain newey disicple comes good when venturing away from the RedBull nest. The odds are very slim, but what a story it would be if alonso won the world championship and his third f1 title?
Aston Martin, have a very quick car. Ok it is 50% a mercedes, but the other 50% has made the obtain fantastic mechanical grip. Also like the RedBull, it was so planted at Sakhir, that it wasnt destroying the rears. Alonso and Stroll will both want to make the most of this opportunity and win some races with it. Both will push very hard as will stroll snr.
Hopefully the reduction in CFD and Wind Tunnel time will affect RB for next season but i doubt it. Maybe just maybe they overspent on catering again last season and when it comes to audit time, they get punished again. But thats clutching at straws.
).Ferrari didnt run their first choice beam wing in the race or qually as it was flexing too much. Seeing how important beam wing is to the rear of the car, theres more laptime to come from that ferrari for sure when the beam wing is put back in.
Totto said Mercedes update for race 6 will give them three hundredths of a second (0.300) back of laptime. Anything over a quarter of a second improvement is normally seen as a major upgrade. Getting a tenth (0.010) here and there is the norm for upgrades. Getting 0.300 is quite a big improvement. Ok they are still a long way away from RB, but it should bring them closer to ferrari and AM.
The big three have some competition. For once an adrain newey disicple comes good when venturing away from the RedBull nest. The odds are very slim, but what a story it would be if alonso won the world championship and his third f1 title?
Aston Martin, have a very quick car. Ok it is 50% a mercedes, but the other 50% has made the obtain fantastic mechanical grip. Also like the RedBull, it was so planted at Sakhir, that it wasnt destroying the rears. Alonso and Stroll will both want to make the most of this opportunity and win some races with it. Both will push very hard as will stroll snr.
Hopefully the reduction in CFD and Wind Tunnel time will affect RB for next season but i doubt it. Maybe just maybe they overspent on catering again last season and when it comes to audit time, they get punished again. But thats clutching at straws.
Can someone explain to me, in simple terms as I’m a bit of an F1 newbie, how Hamilton went from a seven time champ to scrapping for 5th places? Which changes were made to make him drop off so dramatically from one season to the other?
Kind of want him to get revenge for that ‘21 season. Likely to happen before he’s retired, as it stand? Or is the dutch lisper top dog for the forseeable?
Kind of want him to get revenge for that ‘21 season. Likely to happen before he’s retired, as it stand? Or is the dutch lisper top dog for the forseeable?
I'm not even sure how they would change it mid-season. The power train and everything surrounding it has been designed shape-wise to fit that design so it fits and the weight distribution is OK. Surely that's not something they can adjust now?
He no longer has the vastly superior car to the rest of the field, and also no longer has a team mate with no ambition.
2022 car regulations changed in a big way and focused more on aero downforce from underneath the car called "ground effects" via tunnels which pulls the cars downward and this meant all teams had to redesign their cars considerably.
Mercedes built a flawed slow car last year and this year after once building dominant or competitive cars under more conventional regulations before 2022 that focused on aero on the outer body and engine power. The flaw is possibly the radical removal of the sidepods for a slim outer body and compacting the parts under the body and restricting what can be done underneath. All other teams kept the sidepods.
Large aero downforce on the car body leaves a wake of turbulent air behind so it's been difficult for cars to follow the car ahead for years and overtake as their own car relies on undisturbed air, they catch up the car ahead and then hit the turbulent air and lose cornering ability, less force is pushing the car down.
Moving the downforce to underneath the cars and limiting the car body downforce should in theory mean cars can follow and overtake easier.
Red Bull are likely to remain top dogs as they have the best people to build ground effect cars, it's up to others to catch up just like Red Bull and Ferrari had to catch up with Merc in hybrid engine power years ago. Merc should have some upgrades coming for Spain to give them 0.3 seconds extra and like last year you can get 4-5 tracks that will suit other teams cars better. Merc at least have a better starting place than last year. It might be next year before they can truly match Red Bull unless they manage to workaround the flaws, it's limited to what they can do on this years car during the season.
Lewis has enjoyed a competitive car at McLaren and then Mercedes. I'd say he's still up there with Max and Leclerc in ability, best drivers usually get the best cars but his new car is often 0.5-1 sec off per lap at most tracks. A top driver like Hamilton can only make up 0.1-0.3 tenths difference over another car or driver.
In 2021 Red Bull and Mercedes had very close cars in performance, I'd argue Red Bull had slightly better one and Lewis drove brilliantly to be ahead on points in the later half of the season and led the last race comfortably on merit until that moment the safety car rules were ignored in Abu Dhabi and Max was fast tracked up the order on fresh tyres to go up against Lewis on very old tyres.
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Awesome, thanks!
Lets look at the positives instead of being all doom and gloom (thats a change for me
Ferrari didnt run their first choice beam wing in the race or qually as it was flexing too much. Seeing how important beam wing is to the rear of the car, theres more laptime to come from that ferrari for sure when the beam wing is put back in.
Totto said Mercedes update for race 6 will give them three hundredths of a second (0.300) back of laptime. Anything over a quarter of a second improvement is normally seen as a major upgrade. Getting a tenth (0.010) here and there is the norm for upgrades. Getting 0.300 is quite a big improvement. Ok they are still a long way away from RB, but it should bring them closer to ferrari and AM.
The big three have some competition. For once an adrain newey disicple comes good when venturing away from the RedBull nest. The odds are very slim, but what a story it would be if alonso won the world championship and his third f1 title?
Aston Martin, have a very quick car. Ok it is 50% a mercedes, but the other 50% has made the obtain fantastic mechanical grip. Also like the RedBull, it was so planted at Sakhir, that it wasnt destroying the rears. Alonso and Stroll will both want to make the most of this opportunity and win some races with it. Both will push very hard as will stroll snr.
Hopefully the reduction in CFD and Wind Tunnel time will affect RB for next season but i doubt it. Maybe just maybe they overspent on catering again last season and when it comes to audit time, they get punished again. But thats clutching at straws.
Apologies but you have this wrong. Did he actually say "three hundredths of a second" or was it expressed numerically? Because 0.300 is 3 tenths, not 3 hundredths. A tenth is ten times as big as a hundredth.
Good post.
Ive probably got it wrong. He said 0.3 seconds and ive most likely written that wrong in my post. Been a very long day.
Ah well that's 3 tenths then - but as you rightly said, that's a major major upgrade if all goes to plan!
Btw if anyone is interested in whats happening with Mclaren, this was news to me. Mclaren have a new concept car arriving for baku (race 4).
https://the-race.com/formula-1/our-take-on-the-extent-of-mercedes-f1-plight/
Scott Mitchell-Malm: “McLaren is another team that’s started the season on the back foot, not where it wants to be.
“The key difference between them (and Mercedes) is that McLaren’s absolutely convinced it has found a much better development direction which it switched to in the late months of last year.
“It committed to a very basic version of effectively the original direction for the 2023 launch car which is what it’s got now, and it will have this change-of-direction car from Baku at the end of April, with some updates between now and that significant change.
“So they are already months along that process and they will get that car in Baku and hope that turns their season around.
“If I apply what I think is the McLaren timeline to Mercedes, that’s five months from the point of deciding to make that change to getting it at the track at the level that they want it.
“That makes Mercedes’ season a write-off if it needs anything like as long.”
https://the-race.com/formula-1/our-take-on-the-extent-of-mercedes-f1-plight/
Scott Mitchell-Malm: “McLaren is another team that’s started the season on the back foot, not where it wants to be.
“The key difference between them (and Mercedes) is that McLaren’s absolutely convinced it has found a much better development direction which it switched to in the late months of last year.
“It committed to a very basic version of effectively the original direction for the 2023 launch car which is what it’s got now, and it will have this change-of-direction car from Baku at the end of April, with some updates between now and that significant change.
“So they are already months along that process and they will get that car in Baku and hope that turns their season around.
“If I apply what I think is the McLaren timeline to Mercedes, that’s five months from the point of deciding to make that change to getting it at the track at the level that they want it.
“That makes Mercedes’ season a write-off if it needs anything like as long.”
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There are rumors that James Allison is coming back to Mercedes from his Ineos sailing gig.
If it's true, will we have to wait for him to build W15 before Mercedes gets any better? can he turn this season around? or dare we dream... has he already had a hand in the coming upgrades?
If it's true, will we have to wait for him to build W15 before Mercedes gets any better? can he turn this season around? or dare we dream... has he already had a hand in the coming upgrades?
Well, new great technology or tech startups all begin with the thinking that they can do something better than the current/existing ideas.
If that arrogance then more power to them. Most things we use today would not have existed without such arrogance.
According to Motorsport Italy, Allison, who has guided Mercedes to four successive championship campaigns, is returning to the active role in the Mercedes Formula 1 team. On the other hand, Mike Elliot has been moved to the livery design team.
https://www.salastamparacing.com/mercedes-w14-proto-figlia-del-ritardo-della-w13/
1. Current car is prototype due to be replaced by actual car in april?
2. Mercedes needed to ensure that the car was mechinically correct before adding aero (no added yet) and gaining the downforce its currently missing.
3. They were ensuring the reliability of the PU and therefore not applied the PU maps that will get more out of the engine.
4. They had to analyse on track the new light frame of the car as centre of gravity has changed.
5. The lack lateral load at moment is causing issues in mid speed corners and increasing tyre wear. This will be resolved by the new updates.
Sounds like mercedes werent ready for this season. Similar to mclaren.
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Nice post, sums it up perfect.
so the W14 is not really the W14 , it is a ungraded W13 while they wait for the real W14 to be finished, or am I reading that wrong ?
Well that is my view but we don't really know whether there is contingency in the overall design to allow a change.
Its amazing how many F1 designers are in this thread declaring the Merc a 'fundamentally' flawed concept without really knowing what is going on behind the scenes. Hopefully the above is true, Imola brings what is basically the 'first' iteration of the updated car and from then on Merc can develop on the platform as they thought they would be able to when they came up with it last year.
Like Toto himself admitted its a flawed concept.
Most are just believing Mercedes' own words and body language when they say they're miles off.
No other car on the grid believes in their concept, it appears like they Mercedes don't believe in it and it keeps refusing to work whilst teams using other concepts (especially in AM's case, which is 50% Mercedes) pull further away from them.
It could be a huge bluff and the latest updates could improve them by a second a lap, whilst also improving their tyre wear by 25%, and if so I'm sure many would be delighted.
I read it as its a halfway house between the two and the upgrades in race 6 should make it the W14.
think we are reading from the same hymn sheet, so Race 6 is the real start of the season for Mercedes
Merc's ability to keep their fans hanging on through a season is very impressive.
what you you rather we do, just give up, we have to have some hope , if not whats the point in watching.
People like @dinostar77 have been saying it since the last year that the concept is flawed, and Toto finally admit it this year. Knowing what is going on behind the scenesmakes no difference, flawed design is flawed design, if Mercedes admit it earlier they would at least be bit happier this year than they are. They were very surprised that their design that everyone know was flawed somehow didn't fix itself at start of this season.
Sorry, but I don't agree with this. A bunch of home enthusiasts watching on TV and declaring "this design is fundamentally flawed" doesn't hold much weight compared to an 8-time world championship winning team with 100s of engineers. Does this mean the design will ever work? I don't know, but neither does anyone on here. Would it surprise me if its a concept that will just very hard to get right and in 12 months Merc is 0.5s clear? Nope.
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Helmut Marko questions legality of AM.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/helmut-marko-legality-aston-martin-amr23/#vuukle-comments
https://www.planetf1.com/news/helmut-marko-legality-aston-martin-amr23/#vuukle-comments
I did wonder when he would chip in with his ramblings.
Pirelli have explained the logic behind the new qualifying format which will be trialled at two Grand Prix weekends this season.
F1 is set to try out a revised qualifying format at two individual Grand Prix weekends this season, separate to the Sprint Qualifying format which will be used at six events in 2023.
The revised format will see drivers forced to use the Hard compound for Q1, the Medium compound for Q2, and the Soft compound for Q3, and is aimed at reducing the amount of tyre sets Pirelli ship to each Grand Prix – the change would allow the tyre manufacturer to bring just 11 sets of slick tyres per car, a reduction from 13.
The inside story from Pirelli on the new F1 2023 qualifying format trial : PlanetF1
F1 is set to try out a revised qualifying format at two individual Grand Prix weekends this season, separate to the Sprint Qualifying format which will be used at six events in 2023.
The revised format will see drivers forced to use the Hard compound for Q1, the Medium compound for Q2, and the Soft compound for Q3, and is aimed at reducing the amount of tyre sets Pirelli ship to each Grand Prix – the change would allow the tyre manufacturer to bring just 11 sets of slick tyres per car, a reduction from 13.
The inside story from Pirelli on the new F1 2023 qualifying format trial : PlanetF1
https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2...-didnt-listen-to-his-concerns-over-new-f1-car
Pretty harsh on his teammates.
Pretty harsh on his teammates.