I see AM making new friends with this complain. Now all the teams will be waiting for AM to make a mistake.
F1 2023 Season
- Thread starter pauldyson1uk
- Start date
-
Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss United's fantastic win away against Athletic Club in the semi-final of the Europa League.
They also pick out the positives of United's 4-3 loss away at Brentford, and Nik reviews a day out at Old Trafford watching Manchester United Women qualify for the Champions League.
Did Hamilton ever dominate like this? I always seem to remember he has at least his team mate as a rival, but usually always at least one other. Massa, Vettel, Rosberg etc have all ran him close or won titles. This Red Bull is so far ahead it's ridiculous.
Plus, the dominance is one thing, but I don't ever remember there being such a bad vibe around the pits. Red Bull the worst for the whining, despite the winning, and have been for many years. Made all the more bizarre when they have clearly benefited from some very favourable decisions recently, and then the whole budget thing, which was just a farce.
I know some people just like to race, but the smaller teams must be p!ssed off with what happens in the "top" teams. Or maybe they just ignore it since they aren't really challenging. If I ever do watch a race now it is only when one of the less fancied teams has done well in quali and looks like they have a chance to perform, when it is Red Bull or Mercedes dominance I just cannot bring myself to watch.
Plus, the dominance is one thing, but I don't ever remember there being such a bad vibe around the pits. Red Bull the worst for the whining, despite the winning, and have been for many years. Made all the more bizarre when they have clearly benefited from some very favourable decisions recently, and then the whole budget thing, which was just a farce.
I know some people just like to race, but the smaller teams must be p!ssed off with what happens in the "top" teams. Or maybe they just ignore it since they aren't really challenging. If I ever do watch a race now it is only when one of the less fancied teams has done well in quali and looks like they have a chance to perform, when it is Red Bull or Mercedes dominance I just cannot bring myself to watch.
Did you forget the 5 years where Hamilton had Bottas as teammate who is now getting crushed by Zhou? Main difference was that Bottas was good in Q, so he could start from the front and ease his way the podium. While Perez is worse in Q and therefore have it less easy in races. Mercedes had the most dominant car ever by far for 8 years. Red Bull in on year 1.5 now so we have to wait another 6.5 season of this before its equal to what Hamilton and Mercedes in terms of cruising at the top!
If Bottas were in Max seat with Perez as teammate we might have 4-5 different drivers duking it out for the title this season.
We are at year 1,5 of this now and people are going crazy. Imagine at year 4, holy smokes!
Last edited:
Quite so.
And I am still surprised that the other teams have not yet understood how to make their cars close the massive gap to RB. because Max is obviously driving well within his and the car limits.
But the racing lower down the field is interesting.
I think they understand but can’t get there without a new chassis, which they can’t afford under the cost cap.
If I were Mercedes/ Ferrari, Id be tempted to overspend, take a wind tunnel penalty and get a seasons worth of data on a winning concept like RB did.
Hamilton dominated 2018, 19, 20, but only started from pole around half the time, making it slightly more palatable. Although still being pretty boring. Mercedes we’re also prone to a f**k up or two.
This season, you’ve got Max able to pull a second a lap on anyone on track and always clinch pole, a rocket ship DRS that make his passes inevitable so people barely even bother defending and RB are pretty flawless too.
Yes and no, Mercedes created the illusion of a battle in say 19 and 20 but that was fairly easy for Hamilton. As a team they have never been anywhere near as slick as Red Bull and lost out some wins to strategy, "fairness", reliability etc.
I think the 2014 Merc was even more dominant than this RB, it's just they had two team mates that could battle and they very clearly pegged the car back to not be stopped, Bahrain 2014 was genuinely ludicrous when they both went full attack after the SC and gapped the field at like 2 seconds a lap.
The current RB in race mode won't be touched I don't think, not in Max's hands, Quali they can obviously be beaten but in the race they aren't even stretching its legs.
The sport yet again is a victim of it's own ruleset, budget caps, restricted development time and innovation, dominant team that teams probably won't catch until the regs change again in 2026. The sport is ironically just going around in circles every single era. In my opinion Max hasn't had a team mate that can genuinely match up since he's had a consistent race winning car, Ric was a really good yardstick at the time but the names since then, Gasly, Albon, Perez....let's be honest, that is mid table fodder for someone like Max. I would love to see him go genuinely toe to toe with someone, we all would.
Charles could do it last year, but the team was and still is a mess. Also Leclerc himself was erring under pressure at times, but either way he looked the most capable for going toe to toe with Max. Him and Max in one team would be mint.
Agreed, he would be my choice if anyone could do it.
Red Bull pit crew are really impressive as well. With Max coming in and the team reluctant to pit for fastest lap, not worth the risk with pressure of a mistake losing the race they calmly do a 2.3 second stop.
You could totally see Ferrari putting a wrong tyre in such situation.
Gained 6 places this race, 9 out of 10 finishers was OK only one in the correct place, not so good.
Atmosphere between the drivers and teams was probably never better, IMO, and smaller teams were probably never more competitive. We are half in the season, and just two drivers are without points, and those two are simply two worst drivers on the grid( and we didn't even have surprise rainy weekends when surprises happens and smaller team win points based on that). I am watching F1 for more than 20 years and I can't remember if the battles were ever more interesting for 2-10th place. I mean, Albon in Williams won points in Canada last weeks simply because he was racing well and his car was competitive, and not because everyone else crashed.
In 2020 Hamilton won the same race with just 7 other drivers in the same lap, and two drivers were 2 laps behind. His teammate finished 13 seconds behind, and Verstappen 33 seconds behind.
In 2017 Bottas won with just 6 drivers in the same lap.
In 2016 Hamilton won with just 8 drivers in the same lap.
So yeah, it's just your nostalgia for "better times" when Hamilton was winning.
My memory is less than perfect but Rosberg and Vettel were competitive in a lot of the Championships Hamilton won, Bottas wasn't quite at his level but challenged him and Massa at least had a year or two where he challenged. Alonso was also a factor in the earlier years. Merc might have had the best car, but the gap was nowhere near what it is now.
I'm not a Hamilton fan, last time I was a "fan" of anybody was when Button was racing.
Being on the track yesterday, it's actually quite surprising that the difference in top speed doesn't look that big as it used to be between Red Bull and other cars. If other car manage to improve in corners for few percents, I believe some of them will be able to beat them now and then with good strategy and good qualifying session.
Sainz fought very well, especially defending against Perez, and I gotta admit he looks far better driver live than what I thought before, he was good entire weekend including qualifiers and driving in the rainy condition too. Perez looks equally average/poor live as he does on TV.
Norris was excellent on Saturday too with visibly slower car, I have no doubt he will drive better car in a year or two.
Sorry then, but it's still nostalgia thing anyway, as shown by the previous results.
Sainz fought very well, especially defending against Perez, and I gotta admit he looks far better driver live than what I thought before, he was good entire weekend including qualifiers and driving in the rainy condition too. Perez looks equally average/poor live as he does on TV.
Norris was excellent on Saturday too with visibly slower car, I have no doubt he will drive better car in a year or two.
Sorry then, but it's still nostalgia thing anyway, as shown by the previous results.
I have to agree with all of this.
RB at the moment have everything going their favour, Max is virtually unbeatable, the pit team is maybe the best on the grid, the RB strategist get it right what looks like all the time.
Lewis had team mates that could and did beat him, Max does not and does not look like getting one, well unless Lewis joins RB, thats not going to happen, but there is drivers that could give him a race, Leclerc is defiantly one.
FIA tried to level the field out with rule changes, but all it did was make RB even more dominant.
Got some nice luck this weekend. But generally been quite consistent with my top 10 rather than trying to be clever about it and it seems to be paying off so far at least. 6th in the UK!
6th in the uk is better than being 1st in the world.
Leclerc could give him a race for sure. He would definitely be much better than Perez, but there is no way he would beat Max over a season. I know you're not necessarily saying that, I think you just mean to have someone closer to him in general, but the fact of the matter is, Max is the best driver on the grid and I don't think it would matter who his teammate was. The outcome would be the same. This car and this driver, are one at the moment.
Also, Leclerc just isn't an elite driver for me. He's not Verstappen or Hamilton. Or Alonso, for that matter. I just think people really want him to be. He's a very good driver though and is capable of putting in some superb quali runs. But he's not in that bracket, IMO
I think he could be that driver, in that RB I defiantly think he could be close to Max.
I agree at the moment, he would not finish ahead over the season, but would make it more interesting, but I do I think he could get a few race wins.
Mercedes boss Toto Wolff has offered some more background on the direct radio message he sent to Lewis Hamilton during the Austrian Grand Prix, while lamenting that the W14 “had no pace” around the Red Bull Ring on Sunday.
Hamilton made several complaints over the radio about other drivers exceeding track limits – and how difficult it was to keep his own car within the white lines – during the 71-lap encounter, prompting Wolff to jump in with the message: “The car is bad, we know. Please drive it.”
“There were a lot of discussions about track limits and whether they were enforced or not,” Wolff said of the matter post-race. “I felt that I wanted to just make sure that we were doing the best out of the package that didn’t perform and just try to give it the best shot that have.”
Track limits and radio messages aside, Wolff admitted that Mercedes’ run to seventh and eighth with George Russell and Hamilton respectively – after post-race penalties were applied – fell below their expectations.
“The car had no pace today,” he stated. “It’s a bruising day, I would say, because we’ve had such a good upward trend and then you have to take such a day. There was no pace and no inkling why yet.”
Wolff explains radio message to Hamilton as he reflects on ‘bruising day’ for Mercedes in Austria | Formula 1®
Hamilton made several complaints over the radio about other drivers exceeding track limits – and how difficult it was to keep his own car within the white lines – during the 71-lap encounter, prompting Wolff to jump in with the message: “The car is bad, we know. Please drive it.”
“There were a lot of discussions about track limits and whether they were enforced or not,” Wolff said of the matter post-race. “I felt that I wanted to just make sure that we were doing the best out of the package that didn’t perform and just try to give it the best shot that have.”
Track limits and radio messages aside, Wolff admitted that Mercedes’ run to seventh and eighth with George Russell and Hamilton respectively – after post-race penalties were applied – fell below their expectations.
“The car had no pace today,” he stated. “It’s a bruising day, I would say, because we’ve had such a good upward trend and then you have to take such a day. There was no pace and no inkling why yet.”
Wolff explains radio message to Hamilton as he reflects on ‘bruising day’ for Mercedes in Austria | Formula 1®
I think Max himself is getting fairly bored at this point. Things like pitting for +1 point two laps before the end is indication of that. It would be better for him as well to get a decent competion.
Newey getting some competion as well wouldn't be the worst thing either.
Newey getting some competion as well wouldn't be the worst thing either.
This always, always happens in this sport. I've been watching it for many years and it's always the same. I had a tremendous amount of respect for Schmancher, but I didn't necessarily like him, so watching all those years of domination was not great. I just thought the sport could not get any worse...
Then Hamilton and Merc showed up, and it was even worse! That was the period where I drifted from the sport because it was just so tedious. Same shite every week, then you look back at the Schmancher years and think "You know what, it wasn't so bad, was it...?"
Basically pining for previous seasons of domination. Obviously, you had Vettel winning four in a row, which, again, isn't great.And the fact of the matter is, most of it comes down to if it's your guy that's dominating or not. That's really the truth of the matter. All this "they get all the decisions" "they're so lucky" and "they're cheating" Man, I was there during the Schmancher years, and it was exactly the same then. If it's your guy, it ain't so bad. Exactly the same as Hamilton years. What we're seeing here is nothing new, it's just how this sport goes, unfortunately.
Yeah, that was a mad move by him yesterday. Think he just wanted to inject a bit of excitement into his race. I really do think he would love more competition. The thing is, he's at his best when he has competition. That's when you see the real genius come out. Same with all the greats throughout the years.
He's driving within himself at the moment.
They are constrained by the cost cap. Mercedes for example want to introduce a new chassis, revised rear suspension, revised front suspension etc. None of it can be done under cost cap. Will have to wait till next year.
If Mercedes/ferrari et al, dont close the gap to RB by the end of next season (2024), then they wont at all under current rules.
2025 season will have minimum development of the cars as all the resources are put into the 2026 new regs car.
There is a very good chance Max could be a 5 times WC by the end of 2025 season.
Just to ads, Horner has also RB are doing very little work on this years car to improve it. Most resources are going into the 2024 car already. Jesus.
Also some geeky tech about RB for those who are interested:
“We have seen all season in the GPS traces that their (RB) speed is very well balanced between low-speed and high,” observed McLaren’s Andrea Stella. “Much more than the others.”
It’s deriving more of its total downforce from its underfloor than the others, helped by that combination of suspension travel and high-ceilinged venturi tunnels. So any circuit with a big spread of corner speeds will likely amplify the Red Bull’s advantage.
The static ride height can be set low for good slow corner performance without that making the ride height too low in fast corners – because the high tunnels ensure the roof is actually no closer to the ground than those with stiff suspensions but low tunnels. The others are piling developments on, but within the limitations of concepts with harder limits than those of the Red Bull, as defined by bouncing.
Because it’s evidently deriving more of its total downforce from the underbody (which imposes far less drag than wing-derived downforce), so it’s more aerodynamically efficient. A circuit with just seven corners (which the car recognises as corners) is very demanding of aero efficiency.
A clue to just how much less reliant on over-body downforce is the Red Bull came as both Verstappen (in his post-stop chase of the Ferraris) and Perez (in his charge through the field) could run virtually touching the car ahead through the corners.
Also some geeky tech about RB for those who are interested:
“We have seen all season in the GPS traces that their (RB) speed is very well balanced between low-speed and high,” observed McLaren’s Andrea Stella. “Much more than the others.”
It’s deriving more of its total downforce from its underfloor than the others, helped by that combination of suspension travel and high-ceilinged venturi tunnels. So any circuit with a big spread of corner speeds will likely amplify the Red Bull’s advantage.
The static ride height can be set low for good slow corner performance without that making the ride height too low in fast corners – because the high tunnels ensure the roof is actually no closer to the ground than those with stiff suspensions but low tunnels. The others are piling developments on, but within the limitations of concepts with harder limits than those of the Red Bull, as defined by bouncing.
Because it’s evidently deriving more of its total downforce from the underbody (which imposes far less drag than wing-derived downforce), so it’s more aerodynamically efficient. A circuit with just seven corners (which the car recognises as corners) is very demanding of aero efficiency.
A clue to just how much less reliant on over-body downforce is the Red Bull came as both Verstappen (in his post-stop chase of the Ferraris) and Perez (in his charge through the field) could run virtually touching the car ahead through the corners.
Last edited:
If you thought things were bad, apparently Leclerc didnt even try to defend against verstappen. No point as RB is too fast.
BBC F1
But Leclerc did not even try to defend from Verstappen as the world champion went for the inside at Turn Three.
"I knew it was a matter of time," Leclerc said. "Max had much fresher tyres. They are also quicker whenever we have the same tyres so it's not like I tried to push like crazy.
"I knew it was crucial to lose as little time as possible in this battle. And this is why I haven't been as aggressive as I have been other times when we have been fighting for real positions.
"This one was a bit different. If he hadn't overtaken me (there), it was the lap after and I would have lost more time and it would not have benefited me in the race."
What Leclerc was effectively saying was: "I'm not in Max's race. He's in another one, all on his own. He is too fast to hold back. So there's no point in trying."
BBC F1
But Leclerc did not even try to defend from Verstappen as the world champion went for the inside at Turn Three.
"I knew it was a matter of time," Leclerc said. "Max had much fresher tyres. They are also quicker whenever we have the same tyres so it's not like I tried to push like crazy.
"I knew it was crucial to lose as little time as possible in this battle. And this is why I haven't been as aggressive as I have been other times when we have been fighting for real positions.
"This one was a bit different. If he hadn't overtaken me (there), it was the lap after and I would have lost more time and it would not have benefited me in the race."
What Leclerc was effectively saying was: "I'm not in Max's race. He's in another one, all on his own. He is too fast to hold back. So there's no point in trying."
That would be start but there is less chance of that, than a driver to challenge Max
I have a slightly different take about Max. He’s the best driver on the grid right now, but I think his biggest weakness is he’s very hot headed and starts turning on the team/ breaking the rules when he has genuine competition.
Give him a teammate who can genuinely compete and see how he reacts. I think you’ll get a bitter situation, with drivers ignoring tactical calls and Max making more mistakes.
Which is exactly why it won’t happen.
Give him a teammate who can genuinely compete and see how he reacts. I think you’ll get a bitter situation, with drivers ignoring tactical calls and Max making more mistakes.
Which is exactly why it won’t happen.
Agree. There’s no way RB will risk this happening, because we all know Max will throw his toys out of the pram. The only possibility of something like this occurring is if they get in a novice and they turn out to be a lot stronger than expected.
Prime Rosberg would be amazing, quick but not elite speed but amazing at office politics, lobbying and even a bit of mind games. I really want to know the inside track of 2016, he got very lucky of course but he also got the job done.
I don’t know. In a scenario where the Ferrari and Mercedes cars are more competitive, RB might want a better no. 2 driver to improve their chances of winning the constructors.
The only reason they are running away with it right now, is because the car is so superior.
You don’t need to. You can see from how petty he reacts whenever Perez challenges him unexpectedly.
Working on their 2024 car already is not shock TBH , I suspect quite a few others, if not all are.
They dont need any upgrade for this year's car, it is about as perfect has a car can be.
Unless Mercedes, Ferrari and I think Aston, pull their fingers out, they will be even further behind than they are now.
Mercedes with their side pods is heading in the right direction, Ferrari is Ferrari's problem.
McLaren will be sporting a classic one-off livery at Silverstone
Think that's even more half-assed than the yellow Ferrari from last year.
This always, always happens in this sport. I've been watching it for many years and it's always the same. I had a tremendous amount of respect for Schmancher, but I didn't necessarily like him, so watching all those years of domination was not great. I just thought the sport could not get any worse...
Then Hamilton and Merc showed up, and it was even worse! That was the period where I drifted from the sport because it was just so tedious. Same shite every week, then you look back at the Schmancher years and think "You know what, it wasn't so bad, was it...?"
And the fact of the matter is, most of it comes down to if it's your guy that's dominating or not. That's really the truth of the matter. All this "they get all the decisions" "they're so lucky" and "they're cheating" Man, I was there during the Schmancher years, and it was exactly the same then. If it's your guy, it ain't so bad. Exactly the same as Hamilton years. What we're seeing here is nothing new, it's just how this sport goes, unfortunately.
All great except "Schmancher", what's up with that spelling
I thought that was obvious, he actually moved to the left in the second corner, I think some lapped cars were harder to overtake for Max. Smart too, no point defending when second position is great for Ferrari.