F1 2022 Season

hobbers said:
So much for the $10m Toto fantasy then.

Look forward to some of his sockpuppets explaining how a <$1m overspend is actually the equivalent of knocking an extra second off on the track.
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It doesn't matter. This is a sport where a 1mm wing size will get you DQ'd. To suggest an extra $1m is neither here nor there is laughable, especially considering how close the championship was in the end. The car should be deemed illegal and that should be the end of it. Getting away with this season should be a bonus for them.

It won't be though, it'll be a fine and some reductions in wind tunnel and budget for next season because its the FIA.
 
mitChley said:
How dare Red Bull over spend on *checks notes* catering and paying ill employees.

I guess they must have dominated due to their drivers being so well fed.
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Do you understand how a budget works? If other teams have the same catering and sick pay and kept under budget that means they had $1m less to spend on other things.
 
Fully Fledged said:
Points drop were noted for both Minor and Major breaches. The only difference really was that a Major breach means a season ban while the Minor breach is a one race ban.
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I posted the rules on this thread before the race weekend, you've slightly simplified them there...

According to the storm in a tea cup brigade a rule is a rule and we must throw all Red Bulls out the competition.
 
Coming even from a non-Mercedes/Ferrari fan, this is getting more and more ludicrous.

Firstly F1 got cars to do a ridiculous two lap procession behind the safety car, giving half points to Max for a race that never was. Then the race director (put nicely) completely 'misinterpreted' the rules, and gifted RB the drivers title on the final race of last year. Now we find out the RB were the only car to break the spending rules last year.

This will also have had an impact on the 2022 season. Perhaps a complete coincidence, but they delayed their official statement on the 2021 season until after Japan, and suddenly announced Max had won the 2022 drivers title at the end by using an interpretation of the rules that none of the drivers or media even understood (which was against the spirit of the rule-change). Ahead of likely pressure from Ferrari to punish them for this season too.

It also sounds like RB won't meet the cap this year. I doubt most will to be fair, but RB have been the most vocal that it's impossible to do so, whilst poaching technical experts with higher salaries and introducing more upgrades, the the other top teams can't match.

It all feels like RB keep taking advantage and the FIA keep messing up and then protect RB to protect their own reputation.

Anything but a strong disincentive to RB is going to make the budget cap and F1 even more of a farce than it already is.
 
mitChley said:
I posted the rules on this thread before the race weekend, you've slightly simplified them there...

According to the storm in a tea cup brigade a rule is a rule and we must throw all Red Bulls out the competition.
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They should lose points for last year. Which means they lose the drivers championship.
 
slyadams said:
Do you understand how a budget works? If other teams have the same catering and sick pay and kept under budget that means they had $1m less to spend on other things.
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Calm down deary, you're getting yourself upset over nothing, the rules have been clear since the start, they won't be getting executed like your wish.

Red Bulls being kicked out would benefit my favourite driver, would move him up 2 positions but I've not allowed myself to get so wound up by Toto.:nono:
 
goalscholes said:
My guess:

"We are confident that we have fully complied with the rules, as they have been laid out. We shall be consulting legal council to robustly defend our submission, which we believe was clear and correct.

"We think it is a shame that certain teams have, without cause or evidence, been pressuring decision makers of our wrongdoing. This is wrong, and we need to ensure that this will not happen again".
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F-Red said:
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Not bad!
 
goalscholes said:
Coming even from a non-Mercedes/Ferrari fan, this is getting more and more ludicrous.

Firstly F1 got cars to do a ridiculous two lap procession behind the safety car, giving half points to Max for a race that never was. Then the race director (put nicely) completely 'misinterpreted' the rules, and gifted RB the drivers title on the final race of last year. Now we find out the RB were the only car to break the spending rules last year.

This will also have had an impact on the 2022 season. Perhaps a complete coincidence, but they delayed their official statement on the 2021 season until after Japan, and suddenly announced Max had won the 2022 drivers title at the end by using an interpretation of the rules that none of the drivers or media even understood (which was against the spirit of the rule-change). Ahead of likely pressure from Ferrari to punish them for this season too.

It also sounds like RB won't meet the cap this year. I doubt most will to be fair, but RB have been the most vocal that it's impossible to do so, whilst poaching technical experts with higher salaries and introducing more upgrades, the the other top teams can't match.

It all feels like RB keep taking advantage and the FIA keep messing up and then protect RB to protect their own reputation.

Anything but a strong disincentive to RB is going to make the budget cap and F1 even more of a farce than it already is.
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Totally agree with this.
 
mitChley said:
Calm down deary, you're getting yourself upset over nothing, the rules have been clear since the start, they won't be getting executed like your wish.

Red Bulls being kicked out would benefit my favourite driver, would move him up 2 positions but I've not allowed myself to get so wound up by Toto.:nono:
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I'm not upset over anything nor am I using such pathetic condescending terminology. None of this affects my life at all. You're making idiotic statements, getting called out then using the highly advanced "lol, I hooked you there didn't I, so ez" strategy.
 
Fully Fledged said:
But they didn't. Other teams let technical staff go and Red Bull gleefully signed them up.
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My point is that's their choice, unless the FIA made the punishment harsher then I'm surprised more teams haven't taken advantage of it (assuming the worst of RB and they did take advantage and are faking the "I'm innocent" act).

It's almost like diving in football, if you aren't going to get punished then why stop.
 
hobbers said:
It doesn't matter. The rules are that a minor overspend is punishable by a reprimand, and/or a fine, and/or by reductions in future cost caps and wind tunnel time. Points deductions in minor overspend cases are supposed to be where teams have been fraudulent or deliberately deceptive.

So the FIA will be following the rules by the letter when they slap Red Bull with a fine and reduce their budget a bit for next season. Same as they followed the rules to the letter after Brazil qualifying last year. The teams all signed off on these financial rules and the penalties for them.
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The rules don't say that.

Edit: and with all the teams having accounting teams how do you breach the limit and it not be deliberate?
 
slyadams said:
I'm not upset over anything nor am I using such pathetic condescending terminology. None of this affects my life at all. You're making idiotic statements, getting called out then using the highly advanced "lol, I hooked you there didn't I, so ez" strategy.
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Ok flower, I'm not trying to hook anyone, in my opinion you're overly emotional about a financial topic, go you. I'm not naive enough to assume all sporting teams work on a 100% moral code.
 
mitChley said:
My point is that's their choice, unless the FIA made the punishment harsher then I'm surprised more teams haven't taken advantage of it (assuming the worst of RB and they did take advantage and are faking the "I'm innocent" act).

It's almost like diving in football, if you aren't going to get punished then why stop.
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Oh sorry true. I do think that if they don't drop them points every other team needs to make it know that they will not stick to the cap in future.
 
hobbers said:
It doesn't matter. The rules are that a minor overspend is punishable by a reprimand, and/or a fine, and/or by reductions in future cost caps and wind tunnel time. Points deductions in minor overspend cases are supposed to be where teams have been fraudulent or deliberately deceptive.

So the FIA will be following the rules by the letter when they slap Red Bull with a fine and reduce their budget a bit for next season. Same as they followed the rules to the letter after Brazil qualifying last year. The teams all signed off on these financial rules and the penalties for them.
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Bingo. In football you know a tactical foul will earn you a yellow, so when you get a yellow that's to be expected. People here are expecting a 7 match ban.
 
I would be surprised if Aston Martin's punishment is any more than a £25k fine, Williams were in procedural breach this year and were fined by that amount if any precedent is used in this case.
 
hobbers said:
It doesn't matter. The rules are that a minor overspend is punishable by a reprimand, and/or a fine, and/or by reductions in future cost caps and wind tunnel time. Points deductions in minor overspend cases are supposed to be where teams have been fraudulent or deliberately deceptive.

So the FIA will be following the rules by the letter when they slap Red Bull with a fine and reduce their budget a bit for next season. Same as they followed the rules to the letter after Brazil qualifying last year. The teams all signed off on these financial rules and the penalties for them.
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And you've already been told, the rules don't say that.
 
F-Red said:
I would be surprised if Aston Martin's punishment is any more than a £25k fine, Williams were in procedural breach this year and were fined by that amount if any precedent is used in this case.
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I agree. If you stay with in the cap you only deserve a fine.
 
There needs to be a quick follow up of transparency though I appreciate they need to avoid a potential legal battle and decide punishment. The FIA needs to publish a report as this only creates more speculation.
 
hobbers said:
The adjudication panels guidance in determining penalties does say that. They have to consider aggravating factors. Obviously it wont be relevant in this case anyway because Red Bull and the FIA will agree a settlement for a fine and a cost cap reduction like everyone expects.

As for how you accidentally breach the limit, easily. If you interpret something as not counting to the cost cap, and the FIA disagree. Since the FIA said in their statement that they havent had to open any investigations, that means whatever Red Bull overspent on was presented in black and white, and it's all a matter of interpreting what should and should not count as expenses.
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Then they might as well scrap it as they will just break it again next year. If you can afford to pay the fine then you can break the cap.
 
Fully Fledged said:
Then they might as well scrap it as they will just break it again next year. If you can afford to pay the fine then you can break the cap.
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No no, the fine will be accompanied by a statement from the FIA saying now that its been clarified and everyone should be clear, next time it will be points.
 
Fully Fledged said:
It's believed that Red Bull have broke it again this year so that wont happen.
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The fine will be accompanied by a statement from the FIA saying now that its been clarified, but its too late for this year so they'll use the same punishments whilst next year everyone should be clear, so from then on it will be points.
 
slyadams said:
The fine will be accompanied by a statement from the FIA saying now that its been clarified, but its too late for this year so they'll use the same punishments whilst next year everyone should be clear, so from then on it will be points.
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Yeah that's more like it.
 
F-Red said:
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Minor is such a bad word to use for this. Any over spend could be worth tenths a lap. Could be difference between being on pole or 2nd or 3rd on the grid. An extra £300,000 spend by Mercedes last year would have probably secured the title before abu dhabi. But they adhered to the cost cap and didnt spend the money and RedBull did spend the money.

Hope there is sufficient punishment. Cheating is cheating after all, no matter how you dress it up.
 
Binotto: "$5m is about half a second, $1-2m is 0.1-0.2secs, which can be the difference between second on the grid to pole."

Less anyone think "minor" breach is nothing important. FIA classifies minor as under $7.25mil. Basically a WHOLE season worth of car development.
 
rpitroda said:
The idea that a breach of cost cap is punishable by a fine is ludicrous.
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Not really, it depends on the detail and the punishment guidelines are pre-agreed for the different severity. That’s why they need to be more transparent so we know how much and why.
 
rpitroda said:
The idea that a breach of cost cap is punishable by a fine is ludicrous.
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Its a joke the integrity of the very sport is in question yet again.

Its nothing against max but human error (masi) and financial fraud won him his 1st wdc.
 
dinostar77 said:
Its a joke the integrity of the very sport is in question yet again.

Its nothing against max but human error (masi) and financial fraud won him his 1st wdc.
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and second. and i’d wager any future titles, even if he moves teams.
 
dinostar77 said:
Binotto: "$5m is about half a second, $1-2m is 0.1-0.2secs, which can be the difference between second on the grid to pole."

Less anyone think "minor" breach is nothing important. FIA classifies minor as under $7.25mil. Basically a WHOLE season worth of car development.
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Any significant breach needs to be punished appropriately but playing devil’s advocate for 2022, if you gave Merc and Ferrari a few million extra for this season they still wouldn’t have beat RB - it wouldn’t save them from the mistakes or a flawed concept.

I hope Binotto and Toto don’t use it as an excuse for the 2022 season in what will be a talking point for a while. Max finished so far ahead yesterday in a sprint race it was ridiculous almost a second for every minute.
 
ZIDANE said:
Not really, it depends on the detail and the punishment guidelines are pre-agreed for the different severity. That’s why they need to be more transparent so we know how much and why.
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My post had nothing to do with the guidelines. Principally, a fine to punish overspending is farcical.
 
ZIDANE said:
Any significant breach needs to be punished appropriately but playing devil’s advocate for 2022, if you gave Merc and Ferrari a few million extra for this season they still wouldn’t have beat RB - it wouldn’t save them from the mistakes or a flawed concept.

I hope Binotto and Toto don’t use it as an excuse for the 2022 season in what will be a talking point for a while. Max finished so far ahead yesterday in a sprint race it was ridiculous almost a second for every minute.
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Correct but it was because a Technical Directive fecked Ferrari's tire wear in the middle of the season. I think it's crazy how the FIA have gone from being called the "Ferrari International Association" to a point where it seems that Red Bull can do whatever they want there!

Hope serious action is taken, as people lost their jobs over the cost cap. If one team went over, other's livelihoods were affected. It isn't just about finishing first.
 
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