F1 2022 Season

avgp_1 said:
It's not as straight forward as that. Fraud in this case is misleading the FIA or deliberately concealing information

https://www.sbnation.com/2022/10/5/23387387/formula-one-f1-red-bull-ferrari-aston-martin-cost-cap

Then there are potential aggravating factors to consider. In the regulations, these are listed as: Any element of bad faith, dishonesty, willful concealment or fraud; multiple breaches of the cost cap; failure to cooperate with the CCA or any independent audit; among other potential factors to consider.
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Everybody else knew the rules and stayed inside the cap all but Red Bull. You expect me to believe that Red Bull were the only ones who didn't understand the rules. They knew what they were doing.
 
If it's just fines then they need to publish the exact amount they went over. Other teams following the limit can decide for themselves whether it's worth going over by such an amount for a small fine which then raises the limit they can spend next year and evens it up somewhat trying to compete with Red Bull.

Set the precedent then follow it. Either actually punish Red Bull properly or fine them and detail this upper ceiling of spending so every team can decide to enter this higher limit with the same trivial fines for everyone tacked on.
 
redshaw said:
If it's just fines then they need to publish the exact amount they went over. Other teams following the limit can decide for themselves whether it's worth going over by such an amount for a small fine which then raises the limit they can spend next year and evens it up somewhat trying to compete with Red Bull.

Set the precedent then follow it. Either actually punish Red Bull properly or fine them and detail this upper ceiling of spending so every team can decide to enter this higher limit with the same trivial fines for everyone tacked on.
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The only problem with that is the only one to breach it last year was RB. Especially after what Ross Braun said it can't be just a fine. You will lose your championship has to mean you will lose your championship.
 
redshaw said:
If it's just fines then they need to publish the exact amount they went over. Other teams following the limit can decide for themselves whether it's worth going over by such an amount for a small fine which then raises the limit they can spend next year and evens it up somewhat trying to compete with Red Bull.

Set the precedent then follow it. Either actually punish Red Bull properly or fine them and detail this upper ceiling of spending so every team can decide to enter this higher limit with the same trivial fines for everyone tacked on.
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This is the problem the FIA have. Too leinient and teams will calculate the fines into their thinking and go "well its worth being fined x amount" in order to go 0.1-0.5 seconds quicker.

Thats why they have to come down hard. What example does it set that you let the team that has won a wdc or constructors off with a fine and a "promise you wont do it again will you?" Pat on the back?
 
redshaw said:
If it's just fines then they need to publish the exact amount they went over. Other teams following the limit can decide for themselves whether it's worth going over by such an amount for a small fine which then raises the limit they can spend next year and evens it up somewhat trying to compete with Red Bull.

Set the precedent then follow it. Either actually punish Red Bull properly or fine them and detail this upper ceiling of spending so every team can decide to enter this higher limit with the same trivial fines for everyone tacked on.
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Not a chance in hell.

You know it, I know it, the world knows it and Horner definitely knows it.

Ferrari team principal Mattia Binotto said on Sunday ”If there is a breach, the penalty has to be significant. Our car has been developed respecting the budget cap and we know how much even a minor breach would have implied in performance.

"$5m is about half a second, $1-2m is 0.1-0.2secs, which can be the difference between second on the grid to pole.
 
Fully Fledged said:
Everybody else knew the rules and stayed inside the cap all but Red Bull. You expect me to believe that Red Bull were the only ones who didn't understand the rules. They knew what they were doing.
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It isnt about understanding the rules or not, it's deceiving the FIA and the Cost Cap Administration that is being classified as a fraudulent action. It's something the CCA will decide upon.

Then again it may not even get till there. Red Bull might just accept a breach agreement and get handed a smaller penalty
 
BeforeKeanetherewasRobson said:
Not a chance in hell.

You know it, I know it, the world knows it and Horner definitely knows it.

Ferrari team principal Mattia Binotto said on Sunday ”If there is a breach, the penalty has to be significant. Our car has been developed respecting the budget cap and we know how much even a minor breach would have implied in performance.

"$5m is about half a second, $1-2m is 0.1-0.2secs, which can be the difference between second on the grid to pole.
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That's why the sport is fecked.
 
avgp_1 said:
It isnt about understanding the rules or not, it's deceiving the FIA and the Cost Cap Administration that is being classified as a fraudulent action. It's something the CCA will decide upon.

Then again it may not even get till there. Red Bull might just accept a breach agreement and get handed a smaller penalty
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The point is that they like everybody else knew the rules and put in a budget that was below the cap knowing they had exceeded it. That's fraud and Ross Braun said that would mean losing your title, not a fine.
 
I don’t like Max but I do feel a bit sorry for him. He is the best driver on the grid currently (I love Hamilton but age is a factor here and he will always be my GOAT) and is capable of winning a championship on merit without these FIA and Red Bull being dodgy cnuts but they can’t help themselves.
 
SilentWitness said:
I don’t like Max but I do feel a bit sorry for him. He is the best driver on the grid currently (I love Hamilton but age is a factor here and he will always be my GOAT) and is capable of winning a championship on merit without these FIA and Red Bull being dodgy cnuts but they can’t help themselves.
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For him to be taken seriously he needs to move teams Red Bull are corrupt..
 
sun_tzu said:
Presumably because they thought whatever they were spending on did not count towards the cost cap

If thats true then logically they will probably have carried on accounting in the same way this year as well
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That's what I was thinking. Red Bull is saying their submission came in under the cap and apparently it didn't take FIA much research to find the issue. To me, that sounds like Red Bull thought they found a loophole or have a different interpretation of a specific budget item(s) (i.e., that it/they don't count towards the cap), and that FIA disagrees. That would mean Red Bull is counting the same way this year, and would have to cut costs quickly to not end up over the cap again. But it probably also means legal action, as Red Bull will have been convinced of their interpretation ahead of their submission and are unlikely to just accept FIA's interpretation and whatever penalty comes with it. (Except if FIA offers a soft penalty as a one-off compromise - which they might if there really is some grey area in the rules.)

In any case, all the reactions in here about Red Bull being fraudsters and FIA being corrupt seem rather premature - but then of course no-one expects nuance from this thread.
 
Cheimoon said:
That's what I was thinking. Red Bull is saying their submission came in under the cap and apparently it didn't take FIA much research to find the issue. To me, that sounds like Red Bull thought they found a loophole or have a different interpretation of a specific budget item(s) (i.e., that it/they don't count towards the cap), and that FIA disagrees. That would mean Red Bull is counting the same way this year, and would have to cut costs quickly to not end up over the cap again. But it probably also means legal action, as Red Bull will have been convinced of their interpretation ahead of their submission and are unlikely to just accept FIA's interpretation and whatever penalty comes with it. (Except if FIA offers a soft penalty as a one-off compromise - which they might if there really is some grey area in the rules.)

In any case, all the reactions in here about Red Bull being fraudsters and FIA being corrupt seem rather premature - but then of course no-one expects nuance from this thread.
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We've got plenty of past history to go on.
 
Fully Fledged said:
The point is that they like everybody else knew the rules and put in a budget that was below the cap knowing they had exceeded it. That's fraud and Ross Braun said that would mean losing your title, not a fine.
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Thats yet to be cleared by the FIA, if they hid details then yes that would be a fraud. For now the Brawn statement isn't a slam dunk as that hasn't been determined yet
 
sun_tzu said:
Presumably because they thought whatever they were spending on did not count towards the cost cap

If thats true then logically they will probably have carried on accounting in the same way this year as well
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Cheimoon said:
That's what I was thinking. Red Bull is saying their submission came in under the cap and apparently it didn't take FIA much research to find the issue. To me, that sounds like Red Bull thought they found a loophole or have a different interpretation of a specific budget item(s) (i.e., that it/they don't count towards the cap), and that FIA disagrees. That would mean Red Bull is counting the same way this year, and would have to cut costs quickly to not end up over the cap again. But it probably also means legal action, as Red Bull will have been convinced of their interpretation ahead of their submission and are unlikely to just accept FIA's interpretation and whatever penalty comes with it. (Except if FIA offers a soft penalty as a one-off compromise - which they might if there really is some grey area in the rules.)
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I can't work out why Red Bull, if they had ambiguity or different interpretation of a specific budget item, just didn't seek clarification of it during the season. Like the technical elements of a car, teams are early enough to engage the FIA for clarification of a rule (technical or sporting) to ensure it is legal or at the very least legal in it's interpretation of a rule. It's strange to think they'd wait till submission and then seek clarification after it's been reviewed.
 
F-Red said:
I can't work out why Red Bull, if they had ambiguity or different interpretation of a specific budget item, just didn't seek clarification of it during the season. Like the technical elements of a car, teams are early enough to engage the FIA for clarification of a rule (technical or sporting) to ensure it is legal or at the very least legal in it's interpretation of a rule. It's strange to think they'd wait till submission and then seek clarification after it's been reviewed.
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Probably they felt sufficiently confident they were doing it right?

I mean, an alternative is that Red Bull actually really tried to dodge the rules. Given that they knew FIA would auditing everyone's submissions, that would seem like an incredibly stupid thing to do. But playing with the rules is a much beloved past-time in F1 (see the constant bickering about technical specs and teams accusing others of trespassing), so I wouldn't be surprised if Red Bull did that here as well. Which is why I wouldn't be surprised if the penalty were relatively mild (maybe forward-facing, like windtunnel time, and maybe some meaningless constructors points deductions past year and this), accompanied by further clarification from FIA regarding whatever rule(s) Red Bull has been trying to be creative with.

Assuming, of course, Red Bull haven't actually been stupid and really did knowingly break the rules - in which case heavier punishment is absolutely in order.
 
Fully Fledged said:
The point is that they like everybody else knew the rules and put in a budget that was below the cap knowing they had exceeded it. That's fraud and Ross Braun said that would mean losing your title, not a fine.
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Sigh
 
i heard it was over a few hundred k as red bull weren’t accounting for the sacks they were using to drown puppies and kittens in rivers in.
 
rimaldo said:
i heard it was over a few hundred k as red bull weren’t accounting for the sacks they were using to drown puppies and kittens in rivers in.
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I thought it was the few hundred k cleaning fees following their mass jizz parties with a life size Max statue in the middle of the room
 
hobbers said:
Yeh, exactly as it was proved to be. Toto put the $10m figure out knowing it was a load of cobblers because that's been his strategy all season, to do whatever it takes to detract or distract from their massive failings and placate their deluded fans.




If you can't understand the basic terminology of a word like fraud there's not much point getting worked up about it.
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I understand it just fine. I believe that they put in figures that were below the cap while knowing the had breached it.
 
Fully Fledged said:
The only problem with that is the only one to breach it last year was RB. Especially after what Ross Braun said it can't be just a fine. You will lose your championship has to mean you will lose your championship.
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That's what I'm saying in either punishing Red Bull properly, ie losing the championship or if they just get a fine like what a lot of people think then detail this fineable threshold and let other teams decide if they think it's worth entering. I'm sure Red Bull's rivals would be keen to follow suit to gain performance.

The best precedent to set so no-one would dare overspend is removing the championship or disqualification.
 
Fully Fledged said:
It's either that or their accountants are inept and I don't believe that.
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Why is it so hard to believe there could be grey areas in the regulations that are open to interpretation? There is even a possibility RB take this to court and win. I hope not, I'd rather this gets settled quickly, but I don't think it's all as black and white as some on here are making it out to be.
 
Rumours are around $1.8m over and RB believed the costs wouldn’t be included.

I don’t know if that’s really bad or not, certainly not as bad as rumoured or talked about in Singapore.

FIA need to come out quick as it impacts 2022. As long as they are transparent and punishment is clear think it will all be fine in the end.
 
dinostar77 said:
Binotto: "$5m is about half a second, $1-2m is 0.1-0.2secs, which can be the difference between second on the grid to pole."

Less anyone think "minor" breach is nothing important. FIA classifies minor as under $7.25mil. Basically a WHOLE season worth of car development.
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Seems Red Bull regularly benefit from FIA's, so called, incompetence.
 
ArjenIsM3 said:
Why is it so hard to believe there could be grey areas in the regulations that are open to interpretation?
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Most are probably finding it hard to believe there could be grey areas on the basis that 9 out of the 10 teams managed to interpret the budget cap correctly according to the FIA's findings today.
 
hobbers said:
Yeh, exactly as it was proved to be. Toto put the $10m figure out knowing it was a load of cobblers because that's been his strategy all season, to do whatever it takes to detract or distract from their massive failings and placate their deluded fans.




If you can't understand the basic terminology of a word like fraud there's not much point getting worked up about it.
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There are people in this thread who have already long made up their minds and aren't open to consider other options. Classic internet moment where all people do is get further in trenched in their belief. I agree with you, it's not fraud. It could be an intentional overspend to improve their cars performance, it could literally be extra catering, we don't know and won't know till we get more details, instead of believing other teams principles who are only incentivised to make it as big an issue as they can.
 
F-Red said:
Most are probably finding it hard to believe there could be grey areas on the basis that 9 out of the 10 teams managed to interpret the budget cap correctly according to the FIA's findings today.
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I mean, F1 is the wrong sport to have a conversation about interpreting rules differently. Look at each time there is a regulations change and the grey areas 1 or 2 teams will exploit within them.
 
F-Red said:
I can't work out why Red Bull, if they had ambiguity or different interpretation of a specific budget item, just didn't seek clarification of it during the season. Like the technical elements of a car, teams are early enough to engage the FIA for clarification of a rule (technical or sporting) to ensure it is legal or at the very least legal in it's interpretation of a rule. It's strange to think they'd wait till submission and then seek clarification after it's been reviewed.
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Probably they thought it easier to ask for forgiveness than permission

Especially if they thought they wouldn't get permission
 
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