The fact of the matter is that Red Bull cheated to win the title last season no matter what the FIA decide.
Energy Drink addiction provides deep pockets.
F1 2022 Season
- Thread starter pauldyson1uk
- Start date
There has to be leeway for minor amounts. In any business I’ve worked in there is always a few % allowed on reconciling spend with finance. What if you’re £1K or £100K or £1m over compared to £5m - £10m. The former is nothing when you’re spending £150m in overlapping seasons or whatever the cap is. That’s why I referenced the guidelines as I’m sure the team will have had input to sign-off.
A fine can also reduce future cap amounts and reduce any minor discrepancies.
Obviously this is irrelevant if RB have gone way over then a fine isn’t good enough or if it definitely impacted the championship.
Sickening. The sport had shag all integrity left after last year and the fact that you could bet your bottom dollar on Red Bull getting away with blatantly cheating is even worse.
Fining a team for overspending is not a punishment in my eyes.
Fining a team for overspending is not a punishment in my eyes.
All the teams agreed that fines and cost cap reductions were suitable punishments for minor cost cap breaches.
All hail Lewis Hamilton 8 times world champion. Feck the FIA and Red Bull.
I still think you’re missing my point; albeit I’m not really articulating it. I don’t really care who the team is or what the guidelines say, in my view a team who breaches a cap can’t be fined because by definition by overspending the issue isn’t financial capability.
Of course there has to be a threshold for different “levels” of breach. Absolutely. And there’s enough subjectivity in accounting you should have this concept of identifying minor and more deliberate infringements.
My point though the concept of a fine in itself is a flawed methodology. Punishments should actually hit teams where it hurts, with the level of “hurt” being determined by your thresholds. Deducting points, reducing development time, reducing future caps, other restrictions I haven’t thought of - all breaches should result in punishment of this nature. The question should be size.
I can’t remember who made the point but think about drug abuse in athletes - you almost always get banned and medals taken away, even if amounts were traced and the breach wasn’t intentional. Why? Because it is necessary to maintain the integrity of the sport and fair competition.
I’m not saying RB should have their title taken away, or Max, but in principle the two matters are similar by and large and therefore, to me, issuing a fine is just not appropriate. The only time I can see it is if it’s a procedural issue, in which case the entire breach itself is of a different nature.
Well the idea teams should define punishments in the first place is flawed, then. Have a say? Input into the process? Sure. But the idea you set your punishments based on the views of participants is just dumb in my view. Any regulator worth their money would identify this as an issue.
Marseille were stripped of the european cup. Lance armstrong stripped of his multiple titles. Ben johnson stripped of his olympic 100m gold medal.
The standards are there in other sports, have the FIA got the balls to protect the integrity of the sport? Have they feck.
The standards are there in other sports, have the FIA got the balls to protect the integrity of the sport? Have they feck.
The extra developement that RB did in 2021 helped them develop for 2022. Its given them an advantage that they will retain into 2023. Theres already allegations that RedBull have overspent for 2022 season i.e. the new floor that neither ferrari or mercs could afford under the budget cap. Doesnt matter if the RB was 10 seconds faster than the mercs or ferrari this season or 0.1 seconds. Cheating is cheating.
I think they are analogous but different. I think there is definitely a fair punishment which doesn’t immediately mean RB and Max lose their titles. I’m thinking NFL salary caps for example.
Depending how egregious it is, I could see a reasonable punishment being a reduction in future cap space and limited wind tunnel time, for example. But who knows.
Disclaimer - I am no Hamilton fan.
But now we have the rules ignored last race of last season to gift wrap the title and now this proves they cheated on top of that?
Come on you buggers.
How can that title stand?
Ludicrous.
But now we have the rules ignored last race of last season to gift wrap the title and now this proves they cheated on top of that?
Come on you buggers.
How can that title stand?
Ludicrous.
The British relay team were stripped of their medals even though only one of them tested positive.
Unfortunely it will. FIA are corrupt and dirty. Hamilton last season had a rear wing that was 0.2mm too wide in qually so was disqualified and sent to the back of the grid.
RedBull commit financial fraud and will get away with a slap on the wrist.
So fecking wrong.
Totally agree.
Ross Brawn "if you fraudently breach financial regulations you lose your championship".
The fecking managing director of F1 said that. Penalty is simple....
Exactly this.
You tell 'em Ross.
Exactly this.
Of course they went over in catering, championship parties aren’t cheap. You’re not getting Prosecco at a big do like that.
They went catering Toto.
Exactly this.
not to mention the cartier watches and holiday homes for masi.
Key word being a "fraudulent" breach. It's one of the factors which is to be decided by the Cost Cap Administration panel?!
IMO we will see docked points for the WCC
All a very minor goodie bag when compared with the Oscars
Imagine the uproar if it turns out they've gone over by 50p.
They needed to release the actual numbers otherwise they've just lit the touch paper and walked away. "Fraud", come on now.
They needed to release the actual numbers otherwise they've just lit the touch paper and walked away. "Fraud", come on now.
F1 is a shambles. 
Evening. If you have a look on twitter you will see it was on track way before Gasly went past it. There are screenshots from the onboards of an Aston Martin and a McLaren that show the crane / tractor driving on the track. The Gasly blame is a smoke screen. At least 4 other cars drove past that crane in horrendous conditions. All it took is one of them to bin it and it could have been horrendous.
the fact they haven’t published the amount leads me to believe that it’s probably not an insignificant amount. fair play to them though, have themselves another week or so to make the announcement and still bollocksed it up.
If they could somehow take the championship off Max without awarding it to Lewis then.. well… then I’d be very entertained.
Could be, god knows, FIA is really a joke. Imagine sitting there thinking "Do you think anyone would want to know where the overspend is, or what it was on? Neeeh noone is that invested".
https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/1...ns-formula-1-cost-cap-as-fia-mulls-punishment
Red Bull say that they are 'surprised and disappointed' with the findings'.
I can understand that they would be disappointed...at being found out.
But for such a professional business, how can they claim to be surprised.
Red Bull say that they are 'surprised and disappointed' with the findings'.
I can understand that they would be disappointed...at being found out.
But for such a professional business, how can they claim to be surprised.
If they have put in a costing that doesn't add up that fraud. It's simply the definition of what fraud is.
Presumably because they thought whatever they were spending on did not count towards the cost cap
If thats true then logically they will probably have carried on accounting in the same way this year as well
If it's a couple of grand then nobody will say anything but if it's hundreds of thousands to millions then that is fraud. I don't trust the FIA where Red Bull are concerned.
Good point. That seems highly likely doesn't it.
It's not as straight forward as that. Fraud in this case is misleading the FIA or deliberately concealing information
https://www.sbnation.com/2022/10/5/23387387/formula-one-f1-red-bull-ferrari-aston-martin-cost-cap
Then there are potential aggravating factors to consider. In the regulations, these are listed as: Any element of bad faith, dishonesty, willful concealment or fraud; multiple breaches of the cost cap; failure to cooperate with the CCA or any independent audit; among other potential factors to consider.
They've been spending 6 months looking over Red Bulls books according to Toto last weekend.