Music Eurovision 2024

AfonsoAlves said:
My point is quite personal, sorry if this escalated.

Read the rest of my posts for full context - I'm not talking about being invaded or not, being invaded is not a justification for some of the screwed up things Ukraine has done since the war began. For full context, I am Ukrainian and most of my family are there - I'm not a Z-shill.

I feel like a massive hypocrite seeing us get the plaudits and the support, and the Ukrainian state laps it all in, whilst the world doesn't know what they really are. It would lessen my guilt to see all of us there, or none of us there.
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You shouldn't. The alternative is let Russia run roughshod over a democratic country. And what have Ukraine done that is so "screwed up" in the context of an all out war? Israel are behaving terribly and the difference is they have a choice, and the choice they have made has cost 30,000 mostly civilian lives. I for one would have been quite happy to see them excluded, but that doesn't mean Ukraine should or not be supported.

I get that you may have concerns about the government becoming authoritarian but sadly this usually happens (possibly has to happen) when your actual survival is at stake. It will all be irrelevant if Russia win and Ukraine in effect ceases to be.
 
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AfonsoAlves said:
Divert? Divert what?

That Israel is committing genocide and atrocities? How am I diverting from it? I share that view. Even if I want to ignore that side, (which I do not), what Israel is doing also makes no rational sense.

I'm just pointing out that people are happily cheering and scoring for Ukraine without any hesitation
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No. Stop being disingenuous, you very clearly stated:
AfonsoAlves said:
I don't get the sentiments here:

People are saying you shouldn't vote for Israel in Eurovision because of Gaza?



It's a song contest...Israel's song was pretty ... yeah okay whatever, middling. not great, no terrible. 3.6 roetgens
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You are not making any comparison to Ukraine here but are rather suggesting that it being a song contest should negate any protesting against Israel.

Your strange Ukraine argument whatever it is was retrofitted later.
and it makes me feel sick that we are put on a pedastal when what we're doing is in many occasions just as grim.
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This is just utter shit from you.
 
dumbo said:
No. Stop being disingenuous, you very clearly stated:

You are not making any comparison to Ukraine here but are rather suggesting that it being a song contest should negate any protesting against Israel.

Your strange Ukraine argument whatever it is was retrofitted later.

This is just utter shit from you.
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I mean my literal next post after Russia not being banned was about Ukraine but okay, but people missed the connection.

Read the whole conversation, I clarified what I meant.

You either make it completely apolitical, in which case nobody should be banned, or you don't, in which case everyone ( Russia, Israel, Ukr) should be banned. It was very clear and explicitly laid out.

Here I've quoted it for you

I don't see how you can read this post and read it's *not* about Ukraine

Ah yes, the whims of collective punishment due to geopolitics extending all the way to .... song competitions, that the average competitor has no way, shape or form or influencing.

The past three months has been very depressing for me culminating with the consulate services ban, especially since i'm starting to doubt if we're any better than the ones we claim are the evil ones.
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Wibble said:
You shouldn't. The alternative is let Russia run roughshod over a democratic country. And what have Ukraine done that is so "screwed up" in the context of an all out war? Israel are behaving terribly and the difference is they have a choice, and the choice they have made has cost 30,000 mostly civilian lives. I for one would have been quite happy to see them excluded, but that doesn't mean Ukraine should or not be supported.

I get that you may have concerns about the government becoming authoritarian but sadly this usually happens (possibly has to happen) when your actual survival is at stake. It will all be irrelevant if Russia win and Ukraine in effect ceases to be.
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I've explained in the Ukraine thread, if you want to take a look :)
 
AfonsoAlves said:
My cousin is dead. He was shot by Ukrainian interior police forces trying to escape to Poland because he was eligible to be drafted with the new law change.
My other cousin has been here since 2019 and suddenly lost all consulate services. When his work visa expires he has no physical way to renew it. He wasn't even dodging the draft, he just came here after university.
Friends of mine have been gestapoed and lost all contact, forced to join the army. Other family members and friends have been drafted despite some of them having absolutely horrendous medical conditions.

Political parties that have any sign of resemblance to not follow Zelensky have been disappeared, quite literally.

Then I have my family in Ukr constantly telling me that I'm not doing enough, that I should be punishing Russians here in the UK, that I must do anything I can to make them suffer. Collective punishment for what they've done to us.

It makes me sick. We're not better than them.

truthfully, i don't want russia banned because the reality is if they are banned for what they're doing, so should we.

EDIT - Maybe i'm too emotionally attached to this kind of stuff, and maybe i'm not seeing the wood from the trees. For that I apologize.

Collective punishment absolutely terrifies me, as i've seen what that mentality has done to some of the nicest and humble people I know. Maybe i'm wrong in seeing banning Russia/Israel as collective punishment.
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So your whole thing is based on collective punishment, but you do not want Israel banned who is literally punishing Palestinians collectively the past 77 years, who are politicizing this contest and is trying to win it to whitewash their image, to get the chance of hosting it to do even more whitewashing of their genocidal image?

Have a word with yourself.
 
So Isreal got second most public votes. Actually I am glad now that they allowed Israel to compete so we can all see with what kind of people and countries we generally share our continent with.

Belgium, France, UK, Finland, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, UK all gave them 12 points. Austria, Albania, Ireland, Slovenia, etc. with ten point for Israel.

Population of these countries just confirmed that they agree with how their goverments generally acted towards this war. And no, it's not a friendly neighbourhood country this year that got the sympathy, killing innocent muslim babies and women far away on the west will get you far more public sympathy this time. Racist Europe continues to be even worse than it ever was.
 
Frosty said:
Erm.... On a Saturday? I doubt the Hassidic community are breaking the Sabbath for that.

No, this was done by the white, older conservative voters who view Israel as a white, European state standing up to the savage threat of Islam.
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Or as I like to tell myself, bots paid for by Israel.
 
Amar__ said:
So Isreal got second most public votes. Actually I am glad now that they allowed Israel to compete so we can all see with what kind of people and countries we generally share our continent with.

Belgium, France, UK, Finland, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, UK all gave them 12 points. Austria, Albania, Ireland, Slovenia, etc. with ten point for Israel.

Population of these countries just confirmed that they agree with how their goverments generally acted towards this war. And no, it's not a friendly neighbourhood country this year that got the sympathy, killing innocent muslim babies and women far away on the west will get you far more public sympathy this time. Racist Europe continues to be even worse than it ever was.
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Pentecostal congregations and christian conservarive movements making it their members' religious duty to vote 20 times probably had something to do with it. By opening the vote as the show started they made it a lot easier for these people to just vote without watching the show.
 
Amar__ said:
So Isreal got second most public votes. Actually I am glad now that they allowed Israel to compete so we can all see with what kind of people and countries we generally share our continent with.

Belgium, France, UK, Finland, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, UK all gave them 12 points. Austria, Albania, Ireland, Slovenia, etc. with ten point for Israel.

Population of these countries just confirmed that they agree with how their goverments generally acted towards this war. And no, it's not a friendly neighbourhood country this year that got the sympathy, killing innocent muslim babies and women far away on the west will get you far more public sympathy this time. Racist Europe continues to be even worse than it ever was.
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I agree, so so disappointing to see that voting. A part of me feels it may have been rigged somehow by the Israelis as another avenue for propaganda to show how much support they have when in reality they don’t.

I reckon a lot of people around Europe are scratching their heads at the public vote results
 
Giggsy PO said:
Thank you Europe.

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I think that "pattern" of voting is more down to having phone systems that can easily be used by a "motivated" pressure group to vote multiple times.

I don't think it reflects millions of European people all voting once in support of Israel /rejecting Palestine.

The phone voting has been open to such abuse for years. Maybe they will finally change it.
 
Amar__ said:
So Isreal got second most public votes. Actually I am glad now that they allowed Israel to compete so we can all see with what kind of people and countries we generally share our continent with.

Belgium, France, UK, Finland, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, UK all gave them 12 points. Austria, Albania, Ireland, Slovenia, etc. with ten point for Israel.

Population of these countries just confirmed that they agree with how their goverments generally acted towards this war. And no, it's not a friendly neighbourhood country this year that got the sympathy, killing innocent muslim babies and women far away on the west will get you far more public sympathy this time. Racist Europe continues to be even worse than it ever was.
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Condemning an entire country or population over Eurovision votes seems a bit much, thanks.

Right wingers hijacked this as some sort of weird flagship to show their anti Islam sentiment. Problem is, people who disagree with it can't really do anything about it. It's not like you can vote anti Israel in Eurovision. Or vote for Palestina (why can't they enter Eurovision anyway?).
 
KirkDuyt said:
Condemning an entire country or population over Eurovision votes seems a bit much, thanks.
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Number of votes isn't small though. And it helps when you read the general public view, and when you read how their goverments(that those same people elected) vote on some other serious political decisions regarding Israel/Palestine.
 
Amar__ said:
So Isreal got second most public votes. Actually I am glad now that they allowed Israel to compete so we can all see with what kind of people and countries we generally share our continent with.

Belgium, France, UK, Finland, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, UK all gave them 12 points. Austria, Albania, Ireland, Slovenia, etc. with ten point for Israel.

Population of these countries just confirmed that they agree with how their goverments generally acted towards this war. And no, it's not a friendly neighbourhood country this year that got the sympathy, killing innocent muslim babies and women far away on the west will get you far more public sympathy this time. Racist Europe continues to be even worse than it ever was.
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Israel got votes thanks to their population (which is huge) outside Israel. It is perfectly logical explanation.
Calling Europe as "racist Europe" is plain stupid.
 
Amar__ said:
Number of votes isn't small though. And it helps when you read the general public view, and when you read how their goverments(that those same people elected) vote on some other serious political decisions regarding Israel/Palestine.
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There's been constant pro gaza protests in The Netherlands. So we are not, as a nation or population, completely in favour of what Israel is doing. Not at all.

I do admit that The Netherlands should be ashamed about the way they voted, but even that doesn't mean the Dutch people are one right wing hivemind. I think this type of talk isn't really helping anyone.
 
buchansleftleg said:
I think that "pattern" of voting is more down to having phone systems that can easily be used by a "motivated" pressure group to vote multiple times.

I don't think it reflects millions of European people all voting once in support of Israel /rejecting Palestine.

The phone voting has been open to such abuse for years. Maybe they will finally change it.
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I see you are not familiar with that poster.
 
I'm sure the people interpreting phone voting in favour of Israel are also confident that Liverpool/Arsenal are the people's choice whenever something like that is voted on
 
Amar__ said:
So Isreal got second most public votes. Actually I am glad now that they allowed Israel to compete so we can all see with what kind of people and countries we generally share our continent with.

Belgium, France, UK, Finland, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, UK all gave them 12 points. Austria, Albania, Ireland, Slovenia, etc. with ten point for Israel.

Population of these countries just confirmed that they agree with how their goverments generally acted towards this war. And no, it's not a friendly neighbourhood country this year that got the sympathy, killing innocent muslim babies and women far away on the west will get you far more public sympathy this time. Racist Europe continues to be even worse than it ever was.
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Calm down, it's just bots using the system, nothing to do with the people's actual feelings about the war.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
To me, banning Russia from Eurovision was basically the European organizers saying, "Your behaviour on the geopolitical stage is so bad, your artists can't even partake in organized music contests anymore." To me, it was a form of collective punishment, which I abhor, but even if we ignore that, we're judging a country based on its behaviour.

Then I look at Ukraine, and I see thousands of people around Europe supporting us, cheering for us, voting for us, and the reality is, back at home we're brutalizing our own civilians. We hail our heroes who die and then leave their widows to suffer with no support. We pluck men from the streets, hand them a rifle and a few weeks training and throw them into a frontline where troop-rotation doesn't happen. People who disobey are jailed and in some cases executed, some in a state of fleeing, others summarily.

And then I think, how the feck are we being cheered and Russia being banned.

That, guys, that fecking wracks me with a feeling I really do not enjoy having.
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To be blunt, the collective punishment Israel is inflicting on Gaza is vastly worse than "you can't sing your song this year because of the collective punishment you're inflicting on Gaza".
 
I have to say, I find it hilarious that a competition which has always been defined by its complete lack of seriousness has ended up as a source of so much angst. If we’re going to get this much wailing and gnashing of teeth with every Eurovision surely the correct thing to do is to cancel the stupid thing?
 
It seems to me the pro Israel voters were always going to watch and vote like their lives depended on it.
The pro Palestine/anti genocide/pro humanity people were either not going to watch/not going to vote and if they did vote their vote was split.

What would have been good is if the Palestinian supporters had a campaign to vote for one country in particular from the start. However, the Palestine voters were rightly more involved in protesting or boycotting the show rather than engage in voting tactics.

I don’t think I will be watching again after this years double standards. Announcing that Eurovision should not be politicised, having already politicised it by banning Russia is ‍:wenger:
 
Amar__ said:
Number of votes isn't small though. And it helps when you read the general public view, and when you read how their goverments(that those same people elected) vote on some other serious political decisions regarding Israel/Palestine.
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Lumping all the people of a country together while an absolute minority votes and the uninterested rest sleep peacefully is a stupid approach.
 
KirkDuyt said:
There's been constant pro gaza protests in The Netherlands. So we are not, as a nation or population, completely in favour of what Israel is doing. Not at all.

I do admit that The Netherlands should be ashamed about the way they voted, but even that doesn't mean the Dutch people are one right wing hivemind. I think this type of talk isn't really helping anyone.
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I mean, your country voted against Palestine UN membership just two days ago.

Andycoleno9 said:
Israel got votes thanks to their population (which is huge) outside Israel. It is perfectly logical explanation.
Calling Europe as "racist Europe" is plain stupid.
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0,2% of Europe populations are Jews.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
How many people voted from each of those countries?
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There are not numbers available yet.

Acrobat7 said:
Lumping all the people of a country together while an absolute minority votes and the uninterested rest sleep peacefully is a stupid approach.
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Do you think the votes would dramatically change if more people voted? When did that ever happen?
 
Amar__ said:
So Isreal got second most public votes. Actually I am glad now that they allowed Israel to compete so we can all see with what kind of people and countries we generally share our continent with.

Belgium, France, UK, Finland, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, UK all gave them 12 points. Austria, Albania, Ireland, Slovenia, etc. with ten point for Israel.

Population of these countries just confirmed that they agree with how their goverments generally acted towards this war. And no, it's not a friendly neighbourhood country this year that got the sympathy, killing innocent muslim babies and women far away on the west will get you far more public sympathy this time. Racist Europe continues to be even worse than it ever was.
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Missing the extremely important context that many people who would not vote for Israel boycotted the entire contest this year. They didn't vote.
 
Amar__ said:
I mean, your country voted against Palestine UN membership just two days ago.
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as I said, we've voted in some shite governments. Doesn't mean you can make blanket statements about our entire population.

Well, you can, but it's really not solving anything.
 
unchanged_lineup said:
I think you're massively underestimating the level of boycott. The Eurovision is a non event here this year.
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Boycott or not, it's the ESC, not some grand democratic process. There's a very particular group of people paying attention to and voting in it. It's not representative of anything
 
unchanged_lineup said:
Missing the extremely important context that many people who would not vote for Israel boycotted the entire contest this year. They didn't vote.
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That would be great, but I seriously doubt many people even boycotted the contest. We'll see when the viewing and voting numbers come out I guess.
 
Amar__ said:
So Isreal got second most public votes. Actually I am glad now that they allowed Israel to compete so we can all see with what kind of people and countries we generally share our continent with.

Belgium, France, UK, Finland, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, UK all gave them 12 points. Austria, Albania, Ireland, Slovenia, etc. with ten point for Israel.

Population of these countries just confirmed that they agree with how their goverments generally acted towards this war. And no, it's not a friendly neighbourhood country this year that got the sympathy, killing innocent muslim babies and women far away on the west will get you far more public sympathy this time. Racist Europe continues to be even worse than it ever was.
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Ridiculous. Calling europe racist because of some competition. You seem to not have been in lot of those countries. The amount of help some of those countries have given to people especially from middle east is massive. The amount of immigrant population being given help and hope is massive. To even mention racism is just wrong and people use it so casual this day it loses its real meaning.
People have already answered why the song got lot of points. And if we are being honest she sang it beautifle and was one of the best vocalist out there with France and Maybe some more.
 
People normally complain that there's too much politics in the Eurovision voting. Now they are saying there should have been more?

People liked a song and voted for it. So what.
 
It is well known that people who vote in elections/ referendums are massive Eurovision fans.
 
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