Yeah, having a bit of a mare here. I really like his contributions in the Ukraine/Russia thread.. but this isn't it.
Music Eurovision 2024
- Thread starter Samid
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Yeah, having a bit of a mare here. I really like his contributions in the Ukraine/Russia thread.. but this isn't it.
That's amazing. He's had the same notepad for Eurovision winners for 34 years.
My cousin is dead. He was shot by Ukrainian interior police forces trying to escape to Poland because he was eligible to be drafted with the new law change.
My other cousin has been here since 2019 and suddenly lost all consulate services. When his work visa expires he has no physical way to renew it. He wasn't even dodging the draft, he just came here after university.
Friends of mine have been gestapoed and lost all contact, forced to join the army. Other family members and friends have been drafted despite some of them having absolutely horrendous medical conditions.
Political parties that have any sign of resemblance to not follow Zelensky have been disappeared, quite literally.
Then I have my family in Ukr constantly telling me that I'm not doing enough, that I should be punishing Russians here in the UK, that I must do anything I can to make them suffer. Collective punishment for what they've done to us.
It makes me sick. We're not better than them.
truthfully, i don't want russia banned because the reality is if they are banned for what they're doing, so should we.
EDIT - Maybe i'm too emotionally attached to this kind of stuff, and maybe i'm not seeing the wood from the trees. For that I apologize.
Collective punishment absolutely terrifies me, as i've seen what that mentality has done to some of the nicest and humble people I know. Maybe i'm wrong in seeing banning Russia/Israel as collective punishment.
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I'm sorry for your loss and I'm sure you're hurting and I wouldn't be in a good place in your position but we were talking about Israel and Russia being banned for their military aggression. I don't see the relevance.
What's going on in Ukraine and whether or not they are conscripting people or conducting war crimes themselves is a completely different topic. I do empathise obviously.
Indeed.
2nd, Croatia won public vote. Ukraine third. Switzerland was 5th
Second I think. think they got 320+ and Croatia 330+ but could be wrong.
Well, if aggression in war is the main criteria to be nuked from Eurovision, I get it.
But surely how you treat your own peoples should matter in this conversation?
I re-read what I wrote and I can understand why people think that be "we" i meant UK/Ireland etc. I was meaning Ukraine.
In the past 6 months, Ukraine has not behaved any worse towards it's own people than Russia has.
Living off those two goals against us but this opinion is the pits.
Agreed on all points
First year I've ever felt the tele voting was more political to the juries in Eurovision history. I do feel Israel got shafted by the judges (I know they shouldn't be there but the song itself was probably about 8th leaving politics out of it) but the big issues is 12 points in the UK, 10 pts in Ireland and people try to say the Right Wing stuff isn't spreading here. Being British but living in Ireland for most my life with an Irish father, I'm embarrassed for both my countries. I know its only a song contest but it feels a little more than that.
Should be upgrading to a colour coded spreadsheet. Very funny though.
He does little things like this. I know he's got a list of whoever is at number one in the charts at Christmas, going back I don't know how long but this first time I remember seeing his Eurovision one.He's never been diagnosed with being autistic or the like, but then he's never sought out a diagnosis. If I had to guess I would say he is. He was recommended to attend a special secondary school when he was a kid as he struggled back then, but in the end he went to mainstream school. I don't think much was known about autism etc. then, he's 48 now.
Anyway, it made me smile. He loves his Eurovision!
To me, banning Russia from Eurovision was basically the European organizers saying, "Your behaviour on the geopolitical stage is so bad, your artists can't even partake in organized music contests anymore." To me, it was a form of collective punishment, which I abhor, but even if we ignore that, we're judging a country based on its behaviour.
Then I look at Ukraine, and I see thousands of people around Europe supporting us, cheering for us, voting for us, and the reality is, back at home we're brutalizing our own civilians. We hail our heroes who die and then leave their widows to suffer with no support. We pluck men from the streets, hand them a rifle and a few weeks training and throw them into a frontline where troop-rotation doesn't happen. People who disobey are jailed and in some cases executed, some in a state of fleeing, others summarily.
And then I think, how the feck are we being cheered and Russia being banned.
That, guys, that fecking wracks me with a feeling I really do not enjoy having.
Then I look at Ukraine, and I see thousands of people around Europe supporting us, cheering for us, voting for us, and the reality is, back at home we're brutalizing our own civilians. We hail our heroes who die and then leave their widows to suffer with no support. We pluck men from the streets, hand them a rifle and a few weeks training and throw them into a frontline where troop-rotation doesn't happen. People who disobey are jailed and in some cases executed, some in a state of fleeing, others summarily.
And then I think, how the feck are we being cheered and Russia being banned.
That, guys, that fecking wracks me with a feeling I really do not enjoy having.
Your country is being invaded, if Russia had it's way Ukraine would cease to exist. Your Government is desperately trying to hold on.
I'm a bit puzzled why you think Russia should be let off the hook here. If they hadn't invaded, if they didn't want to take your land, your life would be normal and your cousin alive and well.
I am deeply sorry for your loss though and hope you have family/friends to support you.
How do you feel about boycotting apartheid South Africa?
Anyway, see you in Eurovision 2025. feck you Israel. Well done Nemo.
Well if true then Ukraine should probably be banned from these things too. To be honest I don't know enough to comment on that but I will take your word for it.
However, what people took umbrage with was what looked like support for Russia/Israel as opposed to your contention that Ukraine are as just as bad. Now that you've clarified things what you said makes more sense but I still don't think the decision to ban Russia was was wrong or could possibly have been wrong based on anything that happened after they initiated an illegal invasion.
Although, the main issue people have with Russia is not how they treat their own people. I mean you can see how without Russia aggression there is no war, therefore there is no conscription etc? I'm not absolving anyone of anything in recognising that.
He's never been diagnosed with being autistic or the like, but then he's never sought out a diagnosis. If I had to guess I would say he is. He was recommended to attend a special secondary school when he was a kid as he struggled back then, but in the end he went to mainstream school. I don't think much was known about autism etc. then, he's 48 now.
Anyway, it made me smile. He loves his Eurovision!
As someone who strongly suspects they're on the spectrum in some way and is in the process of being diagnosed this feels very spectrummy to me but I'm all for it
Because I genuinely feel if we apply the reasoning as to why Russia and Israel shouldn't be allowed to compete, the same should apply to us.
It's immense guilt, and I feel we, as we proudly serenade ourselves on the European stage, are stinking hypocrites.
To me, the means do not justify the ends. We were invaded, we were brutalized, but now we're being brutalized both ways, by the Russians and by our own government. What separates us from them now in our behaviors? We feel anger when we see Navalny supporters being plucked from the streets and arrested and jailed, but how is that any different to what we are doing.
I've completely de-railed this convo and I'm sorry. Regardless, my main reasoning for Russia not being banned is I feel it's one rule for thee and one rule for me, partly because of the amazing PR job Zelensky and his government have done, where we do not report or acknowledge any of these horrible things that are happening right now that is entirely the product of our own choosing.
Oops
That was the exact logic I applied myself with for a very long time, all through 2023 as things got worse and worse. And I'll be honest, I look back now and realize it was pure cope.
I then started to apply that same logic to Israel and I realized that my own justifications for Zelensky doing the things he is doing were flimsy and honestly, delusional.
Nobody says, rightfully, "well it's all Hamas' fault because if they didn't do 10/7, Palestinians wouldn't be being bombed in droves right now." Because that logic means you can justify just about anything.
Nay, the choice we make on ourselves were entirely of our own making and using Russia's invasion is not a valid excuse.
In principle, yes, but it depends on the climate of the situation. It's not an easy yes or no answer to be honest. If we were boycotting Aparthied South Africa but allowing in 2024 Israel, I'd be pretty depressed about the double standards and the stance against one thing but turning a blind eye to another.
I'm sorry but it is. Israel's genocide is absolutely disgusting and they should be called out in every forum and every platform where they exist or try to represent themselves in a good light.
I honestly don't see how you can disagree.
If you want to add more countries to the list of evil cnuts then fair enough but you seem to be arguing that Russia and/or Israel should be absolved of wrong doing which it truly bizarre to me.
You're making to no sense. Why are you supporting Israel again?
Israel are mutilating children, killing women and children, displacing and starving women and children, with their military might. Some people disagree with doing this.
The Eurovision song contest is being seen by some as a way for Israel to attempt to stop people thinking about the dying, starving, mutilated victims of their aggression. Some people think Israel are trying to wash their reputation through song and pagentry.
Agree or disagree but that's the reason.
What? I don't support Israel. Read what I said.
I said nobody applies the "they started it, so we did bombed the Palestinians to dust" logic on Israel, because its absurd.
I'm not absolving them of wrong in the slightest. I'm basically arguing the counter, that we're not better than them and it makes me so depressed.
Pretty much every country in the world is better than Israel right now.
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Maybe i'm being irrational then.
But I just feel awful that Russia are not there for being brutal as a nation amongst other things and we're there smiling and cheering and taking all the applause when we're the exact same as the Russians in many regards.
This was the comment that started all of this:
Regardless of what you've said about your home country this comment is pure genocide apology. I get that you're conflicted but it's pretty fecked up to downplay what's happening in Gaza.
Like I should give a fuk if the song is pretty.
Why is it genocide apology? Sorry, what? How was this downplaying what's happened?
a) Eurovision is meant to be apolitical (even though it's really not). Where that line is drawn is not up to me, but clearly Russia crossed that line. Where Israel sits in comparison and why it's not deemed to cross that line is not up to me to decide.
b) It's the frustrating hypocrisy that gets me. We're all (rightfully) outraged when Israel got votes and when Ukraine does everyone is "yayy Slava Ukraini!" It makes me sick.
Let me be clear, again, maybe it's me not putting enough context into the message. For that I apologize.
The message should read:
"People are saying you shouldn't vote for Israel in Eurovision because of Gaza? So why is everyone happy to vote for Ukraine?"
"It's a songcontest, you can't decide that it's a purely musical thing for Ukraine but has whitewashing for Israel. It's either both, or neither."
Then I realized it was possibly too dark-hearted for this thread so I put the Chernobyl joke.
You said it was farcical that Russia were banned and it would be farcical if Israel had been banned. If genocide is not enough for you to cross the line then I don't know what to say. Good night man and again I'm sorry for your loss.
It's farcical to me that russia is banned and Ukraine is heralded. It is genuinely a ridiculous, nonsensical paradox.
I think you're choosing to interpret what I mean based on the lack of explained context which I did explain later on. I thought it was pretty clear this was all contextually related to Ukraine when I specifically said the consulate withdrawal was the last straw?
It makes sense. Anyone who supports Israel would vote for them while anyone who supports Palestine can't vote for them so the "anti-" vote is split.
While I wholeheartedly disagree that it was farcical, the comments about Russia and your subsequent clarification were in response to your position on Israel which you've continually shied away from and sought to shift the conversation away from. Your initial position was we shouldn't have a problem with Israel so this idea of equivalance between Russia/Ukraine isn't actually relevant.
Chris Hanson says hello
I could get that you might think that Israel should be banned if Russia is. But that isn't what you are railing against. Which is a bit odd. Ukraine aren't banned because they were the ones invaded. Once in there they were likely to win as the usual politics of voting wouldn't apply. I haven't watched it in decades but country voting used to be very predictable e.g. France would give the UK zero or close to zero points no matter what.
Ukraine is just defending themselves. It's a completely different from being the aggressor and killing innocent people and children. If he can't see the difference between the two then something is very wrong with his understanding of what's happening in Gaza at the moment. It's very sad that so many are turning a blind eye and looking for reasons to justify a genocide.
My point is quite personal, sorry if this escalated.
Read the rest of my posts for full context - I'm not talking about being invaded or not, being invaded is not a justification for some of the screwed up things Ukraine has done since the war began. For full context, I am Ukrainian and most of my family are there - I'm not a Z-shill.
I feel like a massive hypocrite seeing us get the plaudits and the support, and the Ukrainian state laps it all in, whilst the world doesn't know what they really are. It would lessen my guilt to see all of us there, or none of us there.
Sorry, please stop. You have no idea what the Ukrainian government are doing to it's people at the moment.
If you do want to know, please check the Ukraine war thread as I have posted lots of details there
Nothing what anyone is doing is equivalent to what Isreal is doing so you need to reevaluate your mindset. This whole discussion is about Isreal and their behavior. Your attempt to constantly divert is shameful and downright disrespectful to those suffering so you need to stop.Sorry, please stop. You have no idea what the Ukrainian government are doing to it's people at the moment.
If you do want to know, please check the Ukraine war thread as I have posted lots of details there
Divert? Divert what?
That Israel is committing genocide and atrocities? How am I diverting from it? I share that view. Even if I want to ignore that side, (which I do not), what Israel is doing also makes no rational sense.
I'm just pointing out that people are happily cheering and scoring for Ukraine without any hesitation and it makes me feel sick that we are put on a pedastal when what we're doing is in many occasions just as grim.
If your point is that Israel is just doing it at such a high scale that it's worthy of putting it in a tier above Ukraine on size and scale alone, that is an argument that is valid.