European Super League

Do you want the ESL to happen?

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Dave Smith said:
Problem with a hard cap is the established big teams would never agree to them as it takes away their advantage.
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It doesn’t even need to be crazy, just something that ensures a balance in squads of stars and players developed by the club. Something that stops teams like City have two first elevens that could compete at the top end of the league.

They should be made to use their facilities and develop some of their own players. The only way to do that is to have a cap at some level.
 
Maluco said:
It doesn’t even need to be crazy, just something that ensures a balance in squads of stars and players developed by the club. Something that stops teams like City have two first elevens that could compete at the top end of the league.

They should be made to use their facilities and develop some of their own players. The only way to do that is to have a cap at some level.
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Well this is the problem.

You either have a hard cap, which is completely fair, but means all the top teams lose their advantage over the mid-lower teams (at least theoretically.) Or you try and reinstate FFP which is essentially a cartel system for the big clubs.

For me, of people truly want to be fair they would go for a hard cap, however mid-long term, especially in the PL, that would mean lots of teams would get very competitive fairly quickly.
 
Dave Smith said:
Well this is the problem.

You either have a hard cap, which is completely fair, but means all the top teams lose their advantage over the mid-lower teams (at least theoretically.) Or you try and reinstate FFP which is essentially a cartel system for the big clubs.

For me, of people truly want to be fair they would go for a hard cap, however mid-long term, especially in the PL, that would mean lots of teams would get very competitive fairly quickly.
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The big teams though would still attract the better players though, or at least you’d think, even if your salaries are all the same cap across the board
 
golden_blunder said:
The big teams though would still attract the better players though, or at least you’d think, even if your salaries are all the same cap across the board
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Initially they would, but once they filled their quota, they wouldn't be able to top up. One bad experience transfer would be much more disastrous. It is how in the NFL no team really stays at the top, unless they have someone like Brady who takes paycuts.
 
Dave Smith said:
Initially they would, but once they filled their quota, they wouldn't be able to top up. One bad experience transfer would be much more disastrous. It is how in the NFL no team really stays at the top, unless they have someone like Brady who takes paycuts.
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Yeah I like the sound of that. Coaches who rely on big money transfers would have their coaching put to the test. There should also be a certain amount of home grown players and a certain amount of players produced by your own club
 
I think a salary cap is pretty hard to enforce. How do you deal with image rights, marketing and sponsorship? How do you avoid the mancini situation where they just get paid by outside sources?
 
In reference to a european competition I think its impossible to standardise the wages of players, i'm not sure its really desirable. A team from Finland having their costs set relative to Manchester United just seems redundant
 
caid said:
I think a salary cap is pretty hard to enforce. How do you deal with image rights, marketing and sponsorship? How do you avoid the mancini situation where they just get paid by outside sources?
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Well they would have to be included. This is what I mean about the big teams never signing up to it as they would have to only have one or two stars and the others would have to move elsewhere.

caid said:
In reference to a european competition I think its impossible to standardise the wages of players, i'm not sure its really desirable. A team from Finland having their costs set relative to Manchester United just seems redundant
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It is pretty much impossible, even if it is the fairest way.

However, my point was principally that the established old guard have to stop going on about outside finance and fairness. If they want fairness then put in place a fixed/hard cap that is applicable to everyone and see how the cards fall or suck it up and get on with it as FFP was always a cartel system that was anything but 'fair'.
 
Dave Smith said:
Well they would have to be included. This is what I mean about the big teams never signing up to it as they would have to only have one or two stars and the others would have to move elsewhere.



It is pretty much impossible, even if it is the fairest way.

However, my point was principally that the established old guard have to stop going on about outside finance and fairness. If they want fairness then put in place a fixed/hard cap that is applicable to everyone and see how the cards fall or suck it up and get on with it as FFP was always a cartel system that was anything but 'fair'.
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I agree with that in principal, I think. I think i've just gotten used to the idea that PSG and City are going to have first dibs on players basically. We're not exactly far down the list so I can get over that. Their advantage feels a bit unassailable at times and i have more of a problem with that. But thats an issue in most leagues so state backing cant really be blamed. We're as big a part of the problem as city and psg at this point.
 
caid said:
I agree with that in principal, I think. I think i've just gotten used to the idea that PSG and City are going to have first dibs on players basically. We're not exactly far down the list so I can get over that. Their advantage feels a bit unassailable at times and i have more of a problem with that. But thats an issue in most leagues so state backing cant really be blamed. We're as big a part of the problem as city and psg at this point.
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Agreed. Although, I would count Real, Barca and Juve as much bigger culprits as they have beggard their national leagues through their tv contracts and are now insisting on a Super League as they have essentially ruined marketability of their own leagues through their own greed.

As for City and PSG the way I look at it is as follows. PSG still haven't won much of note and City have only really kicked on under Pep. For me, if the bigger clubs in England, Italy, France and Germany got their organisational structure and coaching team right they can still beat the likes of City and PSG, especially when they do not have a Pep to hand.

My gripe with the moaning about PSG/City/Chelsea is not so much that I disagree with it. It is that I do not understand what those teams were meant to do to become competitive once football got heavily commercialized/globalised. For me, the options are get on with it, as the established clubs are still going to be top clubs, if not winning their league every year, or go for a real FFP by putting in a hard salary cap so everyone is playing to the same rules/has the same financial opportunities.

What I cannot stand is the hypocrisy of not wanting something like a fixed/hard cap but then crying about City/PSG/Chelsea and setting up the old FFP to keep those clubs the biggest forever. It really is one or the other.
 
carvajal said:
I understand the argument that those games can get boring over time, but the alternative is to see a Manchester Madrid every ten years. Between that and Basaksehir or a team that is going to be beaten easily, I'll take the former.
Matches that are also irrelevant many times.
Today we could bet and hit at least 4 teams from the next quarters.
Without a doubt it is for money and because Madrid do not want to be a figurant in the success of others (and if that is the case, let's see if we can also be a public limited company and become state clubs).
I understand as well what you say about the promotions. Surely it could be fixed (but don't expect Manchester City to be relegated).
In my head we are not going to play any more Champions League games, so I hope they sanction us to accelerate whatever it takes. A triangle with Barcelona or juve or a world tour of friendlies
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I really find that quite shocking if you truly believe this, whilst the poorer for it, the CL could easily go on without Madrid, Barca, and Juve in it, it'd still be fully watchable, whilst an endless 'traingle' of friendlies would be mind numbing, and will hardly accelerate anyone else joining up.

If I was a Madrid fan I'd be hoping we fall in line now, and if you're that way inclined, hope that they plot something more credible next time around.
 
When was the last time Juve were relegated due to not getting enough points?
This could be the second time in recent memory they have done it for other reasons............
 
My first comment here on this joke.

The Spanish and Italian clubs, badly managed and with serious financial crises, in leagues that they destroyed themselves decide to invest in a kamikaze tactic that only demonstrates the level of amateurism that reigns in the world of football.

A ridiculous plan that was a clear attack on the Premier League.
And here it is exposed another ridiculous that is to have some of the biggest clubs of the Premier League in the hands of Americans who do not understand anything of this sport and that they don't care about their clubs, they are only there to withdraw money and saw in it an opportunity to withdraw something more, a little faster without fearing further consequences for their clubs.

And Real Madrid is and will be the most hated club in and out of Spain because their entire history is based on these antics.
 
Some interesting discussion in the recent posts.

Carvajal If he/she is an accurate reflection of the fan base in Spain, it would suggest that the football system in Spain is broken, In England whilst our biggest clubs will have bigger amounts of supporters, they not so much that we all consider our League structure as boring, or not worth competing in. Ultimately the vast majority of football supporters in this country whether they are a Manchester United fan or Halifax town fan support and enjoy the current structure of the game. This will be a big reason why the EPL clubs backed out of the ESL first. The hatred of ESL united fanbases around the country.

I also agree on the recent comments regarding FFP, ultimately its only actually fair if its a hard cap, but at the same time we never going to see the biggest clubs agree to that, because they have such an advantage in spending power. I remember in our championship promotion season, someone posted a league table showing profit/loss with biggest losses at top and biggest profits at bottom, about 90% of the division was losing money, and it almost mirrored the actual league table at the time.

The fix for the Spanish giant's financial problems and for their broken game, is to sort out their revenue split in La Liga so it becomes a more competitive league, that in turn means more games will be a sellout, as well on top of that cut back on expenditure even if it means been less competitive for a number of seasons. The rest of the world can see it, Barcelona and Real Madrid have no divine right to constantly be at the top of the pyramid winning things because they buying up all the superstars, and then complaining when they cannot pay those superstars.
 
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Fox_Chrys said:
Some interesting discussion in the recent posts.

Carvajal If he/she is an accurate reflection of the fan base in Spain, it would suggest that the football system in Spain is broken, In England whilst our biggest clubs will have bigger amounts of supporters, they not so much that we all consider our League structure as boring, or not worth competing in. Ultimately the vast majority of football supporters in this country whether they are a Manchester United fan or Halifax town fan support and enjoy the current structure of the game. This will be a big reason why the EPL clubs backed out of the ESL first. The hatred of ESL united fanbases around the country.

I also agree on the recent comments regarding FFP, ultimately its only actually fair if its a hard cap, but at the same time we never going to see the biggest clubs agree to that, because they have such an advantage in spending power. I remember in our championship promotion season, someone posted a league table showing profit/loss with biggest losses at top and biggest profits at bottom, about 90% of the division was losing money, and it almost mirrored the actual league table at the time.

The fix for the Spanish giant's financial problems and for their broken game, is to sort out their revenue split in La Liga so it becomes a more more competitive league, that in turn means more games will be a sellout, as well on top of that cut back on expenditure even if it means been less competitive for a number of seasons. The rest of the world can see it, Barcelona and Real Madrid have no divine right to constantly be at the top of the pyramid winning things because they buying up all the superstars, and then complaining when they cannot pay those superstars.
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Well said
 
You cannot be expelled from the UCL if you do not qualify.

Genius Agnelli.
 
crossy1686 said:
:lol: :lol: :lol: £100, I'll make you that genuine bet today that by the end of the 2024 season, if you haven't watched 2 full games of super league the money is all yours. Put your money where you mouth is. I'll book mark the post and follow all your posts from this point on if you agree
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Sorry for not answering, but guess it doesn't matter now, since the fans won this battle.. but i fear that this "war" is far from over, so if it does happen anyway, id take that bet anyway. I will never watch a single super league game, ever.
 
There are some rumours in Spain that they are reworking the Super League. Sportic merit is the focus and apparently it will have more Teams. English Teams will be lured by giving them a much higher Starting spots
 
https://www.juventus.com/en/news/articles/statement-from-barcelona-juve-real-26-05

BARCELONA, JUVENTUS AND REAL MADRID REMAIN COMMITTED TO MODERNIZING FOOTBALL THROUGH AN OPEN DIALOGUE WITH UEFA

FC Barcelona, Juventus FC and Real Madrid CF wish to express their absolute rejection of the insistent coercion that UEFA has been maintaining towards three of the most relevant institutions in the history of football. This alarming attitude constitutes a flagrant breach of the decision of the courts of justice, which have already made a clear statement warning UEFA to refrain from taking any action that could penalise the founding clubs of the Super League while the legal proceedings are ongoing.

Therefore, the opening of disciplinary proceedings by UEFA is incomprehensible and is a direct attack against the rule of law that we, the citizens of the European Union, have democratically built up, while constituting a lack of respect toward the authority of the courts of justice themselves.

From the beginning, the Super League has been promoted with the aim of improving the situation of European football, through permanent dialogue with UEFA and with the objective to increase the interest in the sport and to offer fans the best possible show. This objective has to be achieved in a framework of sustainability and solidarity, especially in a precarious economic situation such as the one many clubs in Europe are currently experiencing.

Instead of exploring ways of modernizing football through open dialogue, UEFA expects us to withdraw the ongoing court proceedings that question their monopoly over European football. Barcelona, Juventus and Real Madrid, all of them more than a century old, will not accept any form of coercion or intolerable pressure, while they remain strong in their willingness to debate, respectfully and through dialogue, the urgent solutions that football currently needs.

Either we reform football or we will have to watch its inevitable downfall.
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Cardboard elk said:
I cannot fathom that these clubs fans are not out in the streets.

These clubs are a shame for football. I hope they get banned and worse. Disgusting attitude. "Saving football" my ass. Saving themselves from their selfmade crisis is what.
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Supporters of those 3 clubs have supported their club in exploiting and mistreating the other clubs in their own leagues for years. Why would this be any different?
 
The last 15 European finals between Spanish V English clubs Spanish have won all.

Will ended today, but crazy stat.
 
DoneDaDa said:
The last 15 European finals between Spanish V English clubs Spanish have won all.

Will ended today, but crazy stat.
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4 Champions Leagues (Barcelona v Manutd x2, Real Madrid v Liverpool, Barcelona v Arsenal) - The last time before that was 1980/81 when Liverpool beat Real Madrid.

3 Europa League (Sevilla v Liverpool, A Madrid v Fulham, Sevilla v Middlesbrough) - Liverpool beat Alaves in 2000/01

I only count seven between the last English win. Not sure whether I'm missing something.
 
MU655 said:
4 Champions Leagues (Barcelona v Manutd x2, Real Madrid v Liverpool, Barcelona v Arsenal) - The last time before that was 1980/81 when Liverpool beat Real Madrid.

3 Europa League (Sevilla v Liverpool, A Madrid v Fulham, Sevilla v Middlesbrough) - Liverpool beat Alaves in 2000/01

I only count seven between the last English win. Not sure whether I'm missing something.
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No your correct just checked that also as I found this stat online, maybe they included UEFA Super cup or some other European cups which don’t exist right now.
 
Good luck believing in joel glazer

the truth is they are all still working on superleague off the radar

 
::sonny:: said:
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I really don't understand the legal argument here. AFAIK FIFA and UEFA are private associations that can pretty much set any rules for admission and/or access to the tournaments they organize, as long as they're not arbitrary nor related to race, religion etc. Forming a separate tournament that directly compete with FIFA/UEFA's doesn't qualify as an exception. For instance, I can't sign a new work contract without infringing the one I actually have. Or is the argument different?
 
Krakenzero said:
I really don't understand the legal argument here. AFAIK FIFA and UEFA are private associations that can pretty much set any rules for admission and/or access to the tournaments they organize, as long as they're not arbitrary nor related to race, religion etc. Forming a separate tournament that directly compete with FIFA/UEFA's doesn't qualify as an exception. For instance, I can't sign a new work contract without infringing the one I actually have. Or is the argument different?
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I see it as Real, Barca and Juve desperately scrambling for a legal barrier to stop them from being banned.
 
Krakenzero said:
I really don't understand the legal argument here. AFAIK FIFA and UEFA are private associations that can pretty much set any rules for admission and/or access to the tournaments they organize, as long as they're not arbitrary nor related to race, religion etc. Forming a separate tournament that directly compete with FIFA/UEFA's doesn't qualify as an exception. For instance, I can't sign a new work contract without infringing the one I actually have. Or is the argument different?
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The argument will be based on anti-trust considerations. UEFA rules are clearly designed to affirm their position as the sole football governing body in Europe and protect them and their "products" (e.g. the Champions League) from competition, which may or may not be enough to violate anti-trust laws. UEFA also threatened players from these clubs with expulsion from the world cup and there is an interesting recent precedent in ice skating in a somewhat similar situation, where courts ruled against sanctions of athletes who wanted to participate in a tournament that was not authorized by the leading government body in the sport. However, in this case there is still an appeal going and the ruling was also based on circumstances that may not apply to UEFA. The ruling may or may not apply to this situation, but clearly shows that governing bodies cannot just make up any rule they want.

There are far more restrictions to what private associations can do than people think. And any anti-trust considerations in a case like this will be highly complex and any ruling will be fairly novel as sports governing bodies are not challenged every day. I am a bit surprised that so many people here have strong opinions on such complex legal issues that few (nobody?) here will have any experience with.
 
Krakenzero said:
I really don't understand the legal argument here. AFAIK FIFA and UEFA are private associations that can pretty much set any rules for admission and/or access to the tournaments they organize, as long as they're not arbitrary nor related to race, religion etc. Forming a separate tournament that directly compete with FIFA/UEFA's doesn't qualify as an exception. For instance, I can't sign a new work contract without infringing the one I actually have. Or is the argument different?
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You can work in two places in the same time as long as they're not in direct competition and you're not passing the legal weekly amount of work hours.
It's not the same when we speak about companies though.

If Fifa/Uefa have some kind of an exclusivity clause, the ESL clubs can forge a new competition only after leaving all the Fifa/Uefa ones (including local championships - main source of the issue).

If Fifa/Uefa doesn't have any kind of an exclusivity clause, the ESL clubs can forge a new competition whenever they fecking want, as Uefa/Fifa are an association not a legal institution. So, all participants, are not bound by law to take part in their competitions.
 
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