I'm quite disappointed in much of the Labour party over this referendum. Corbyn has been far too quiet on reflection and the leadership challengers past and present have been very poor voices in the debate. Kendal particularly I can't remember hearing anything from her despite her being a strong proponent of having a referendum.
EU Referendum | UK residents vote today.
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An interesting comic on the referendum: http://www.filmsforaction.org/articles/the-uk-might-leave-the-european-union-heres-why/
If that is truly how you perceive Brexit, then it is little wonder that we are on opposing sides. For even on the most basic emotional level, the descriptions you reach for are negative. We are not turning a blind eye to the EU's faults. we are simply acknowledging that there are irreconcilable differences and seeking a more fulfilling and harmonious existence (with the nature of visitation rights yet to be determined
).Britain can take away those things it has gained through membership, but roll back the organisation's excesses in an attempt to find a third way. Individual countries with a global outlook, which i think sums up the United Kingdom, can strive to be leaders by example. Very likely this will take time to be fully realised, however the country has waited over 40 years for the opportunity and such ambitions must be considered in that context.
Brexit comes at a very opportune moment politically too, what with the tensions gripping both Labour and the Tories. A vote for Remain will bolster the established order, of which even Caroline Lucas is now a part, whereas Leave could be the cause of great change.
If memory serves, you last made such a claim with regard to TTIP? You were wrong then, as was borne out by my post history, and are likewise in error on this occasion.
Cannot the EU be ineffective on the one hand, but the advocate of bad laws and practices on the other? We see it in other aspects of its governance after all.
Perhaps she has been offered the job of fellow Remainer, Jeremy Hunt...
Her words either make her sound like a fool, or an irrational turncoat. She could still back the principle of Leave without standing by the 350m claim, others are doing so. I would also question the sincerity of her claims about truth, considering that she is now endorsing the Treasury's wild economic predictions.
An amicable trade deal with the EU, an endeavour encouraged by Brussels' own Lisbon Treaty. The offer of freedom of movement up to a certain number of migrants, after which point controls come into effect. Withdrawal from unnecessary and unsatisfactory centralised initiatives: primacy of the ECJ (but not the ECHR), the EAW, CAP, CFP, TTIP e.t.c.
And no longer should our taxes be spent on European government ministries with responsibility for foreign affairs and international development; the former amounting to a competing power base, whilst the latter having been shown to be a corrupt and wasteful indulgence.
Admittedly a rough and ready starting point, however you get the general idea.
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I'm so disappointed. I hope this is the last vote he has the chance to lead the party through.
If that is truly how you perceive Brexit, then it is little wonder that we are on opposing sides. For even on the most basic emotional level, the descriptions you reach for are negative. We are not turning a blind eye to the EU's faults. we are simply acknowledging that there are irreconcilable differences and seeking a more fulfilling and harmonious existence (with the nature of visitation rights yet to be determined
Britain can take away those things it has gained through membership, but roll back the organisation's excesses in an attempt to find a third way. Individual countries with a global outlook, which i think sums up the United Kingdom, can strive to be leaders by example. Very likely this will take time to be fully realised, however the country has waited over 40 years for the opportunity and such ambitions must be considered in that context.
Brexit comes at a very opportune moment politically too, what with the tensions gripping both Labour and the Tories. A vote for Remain will bolster the established order, of which even Caroline Lucas is now a part, whereas Leave could be the cause of great change.
I think you know I was referring to the argument presented in the article and nothing else. If you want to infer that thats my feelings on Brexit too then fine, but thats not what was written.
This is an interesting point, are politicians , and I include all sides, just using this vote to change the system in the UK and using the EU as an excuse.
We will never agree on the pros and cons of the EU, but I would like your honest opinion on this issue
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My response about them being boring was to this:
I have said the same to others who keep bringing up the conspiracy theory crap out of the blue. I wasn't in any way trying to dodge a brexit argument or responding to something to do with brexit, Cameron etc. It was purely to respond to the pointless mention of me apparently being a tin foil hat merchant, which isn't really relevant to this discussion. Sorry if you misunderstood.
If that is truly how you perceive Brexit, then it is little wonder that we are on opposing sides. For even on the most basic emotional level, the descriptions you reach for are negative. We are not turning a blind eye to the EU's faults. we are simply acknowledging that there are irreconcilable differences and seeking a more fulfilling and harmonious existence (with the nature of visitation rights yet to be determined
No offence, but what you say is just a fancy politically correct way of saying exactly the same thing that @NinjaFletch said bluntly.
Apt tagline
Fixed -Sorry but I couldn't resist,
Blair and Major out in force today with the ridiculous "leaving compromises our safety" claims, bringing Northern Ireland into it now. Fecking ridiculous. I'd like to see some good, proper arguments in this campaign instead of the laughably hysterical nonsense that's being peddled. When are PM's and former PM's going to realise that arguing your case by forecasting doom isn't a good tactic?
[QUOTE="Nick 0208 Ldn, post: 19312585, member: 8698]
And no longer should our taxes be spent on European government ministries with responsibility for foreign affairs and international development; the former amounting to a competing power base, whilst the latter having been shown to be a corrupt and wasteful indulgence.[/QUOTE]
If you're going to make these type of accusations then I suggest you back them up with hard proof, as one could do in the occasions of corruption and indulgence of politicians and councils in the UK
And no longer should our taxes be spent on European government ministries with responsibility for foreign affairs and international development; the former amounting to a competing power base, whilst the latter having been shown to be a corrupt and wasteful indulgence.[/QUOTE]
If you're going to make these type of accusations then I suggest you back them up with hard proof, as one could do in the occasions of corruption and indulgence of politicians and councils in the UK
That's quite the comprehensive rebuttal of their claims.
Just watched the Leave NHS ad after the c4 news. kin ell. They've got some stones I'll say that.
kin ell. They've got some stones I'll say that.Something like this or a different one?Just watched the Leave NHS ad after the c4 news.
Do leavers seriously belive Gove et al would use any money saved from Brexit to fund more public spending?
I hate any political argument that starts with "as a mum". Either they actually think that makes their opinion more important or they think other mothers would be so easily led by this shared motherhood.
It's the idea they think any money will be saved at all that gets me.
This is pretty much how I'm thinking. I'm thinking of the future of my children and the state of my small business that provides for them in the mean time.
I've seen no actual plan or even talk of one for the brexit. I'm simply not willing to take a chance based on half truths at best (from both sides) on what's going to happen. I'm not in a position to gamble on the future and I won't be doing that.
The U.K. in the EU
The U.K. out of the EU
The U.K. out of the EU
The problem is Leave are pretty useless at arithmetic, let's really stretch our imagination and actually believe they are going to save £8.5bn by not paying any fees whatsoever to the EU. Then we really stretch our imagination to the maximum and incredulously believe that the Trade defecit will remain at £68bn , the loss on exchange rate already, let alone what the future will do, has already wiped out what they are supposed to be saving, there will not be more money, there's less already, let alone investments, loss of jobs and so on.
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What do you mean by plan, me personally?
Just watched the Leave NHS ad after the c4 news.
I wonder if anyone from Brexit has ever visited France. You know that EU country that has probably the finest or at least one of the finest health services in the world. Odd that.
Ignorance is bliss I suppose.
It is amazing isn't it?
ITV debate is fairly dull. Entertaining to see Rudd going at Johnson though...will be awkward if he's her party leader eventually.
I think she'd be more concerned, like the rest of us, that the dickhead was PM.
Well i don't think turning a blind eye to European animal welfare was an accurate interpretation of the article either. And reading your reaction, i didn't see why it would not apply more broadly. If on other hand you believe that the motivations of Leavers are to create something better (albeit that you disagree with their route to such), then i would pull back from that more general conclusion.
I doubt whether many of them are thinking in such far reaching terms as the future political landscape (these are politicians after all), however we've certainly got some internal party maneuvering at work here, as well as a more individualistic trading of support to enhance promotion prospects. One might suspect these influences in the choices made by May and Javid.
Were Corbyn a bolder and more assured leader, his support for Leave could well have reinvigorated the transcendent movement which brought him to office.
Certainly, are you not aware of the billions of European Union aid lost in Egypt and the Palestinian Authority?
I would also make the same request of, however; can you point to any evidence to corroborate your repeated assertions that full freedom of movement is the only outcome of Brexit negotiations?
Yes, for they have little choice in the matter. It is worth remembering that Gove et al, are already spending more on the NHS than the left-wing alternative pledged to. Moreover, any savings we make shall be a windfall for the Labour government which succeeds them, be it in 2020 or 2025.
What, then, will happen to the money we no longer send to Brussels?
Lots of bluster and posturing. Not sure we're learning anything new.
Boris is such a dick. He's a clown that should be pitied and laughed at not a high profile politician. Anyone that listens to and then follows him is a fanny who, again, should be pitied and laughed at.
Thanks for your answer, in answer
to the question of the money(believing it has been saved but hasn't)
Yeah but look at his hair, it wobbles when he speaks and he uses latin phrases every now and then too! Ohohohohoh.
Ignore his views on workers rights and the NHS, his issues with race and how he likes the idea of turning water cannons on protesters, focus on the hair.
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You accused the EU of corruption and indulgence. Proof it with hard facts.
Any trade deal with the EU, whether it's Switzerland, Norway, Albania or the UK for example, (will) involves agreements on free movement of EU citizens AND refugee numbers.
He's the poundland version of Donald Trump.
@Rams , I fear the pictures you posted will actually be believed by some to be the reality, otherwise we wouldn't be this close to disaster - obviously I note the sarcasm
So... no elephants?!
How are we going to control the number of foreign elephants coming into Britain whilst in the EU?
So... no elephants?!
Sorry, lot of bull though
Just tuned in to the ITV debate and the first thing i hear is a Remainer misleading the public. I don't know she is, but the claim that EU trade is gong to be of increasing value in the years ahead, is quite simply false. The curve is in fact downward one.
So that is a no on both counts.
So that is a no on both counts.
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