Erik ten Hag vs Sancho | Sancho back in full training

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AR87 said:
By every report ETH tried several methods to handle this in-house. He gave him 3 months away last season, when our squad was stretched thin during the busiest time of the season with matches coming every 3-4 days, just to get his mind and body right. He also reportedly started giving him a schedule which was an hour earlier than the rest of the squad which had initial success, before Sancho apparently started falling back into his usual pattern of tardiness. None of this has been refuted with any specificity by Sancho, just some cryptic statements about being a scapegoat and double standards, which seem quite obviously untrue when we've seen Rashford and Garnacho be punished for failing to meet the standard in these areas.

You are taking this comment and assuming ETH hasn't attempted a number of different methods behind the scenes. You also claim you're not siding with Sancho while viewing it in the most favorable way towards him, and most negative way towards ETH while also equivocating this with Mourinho and his head-to-heads with Shaw, Pogba, Martial, which were all much more nasty in the actual substance of his words than anything ETH has said. This is not to even get into how much more leeway ETH has initially given Sancho to get himself fit and firing than Mourinho ever offered those players, and in Pogba's case specifically, somebody who was routinely fit and decisive for him on the pitch.

At some point, if all other methods have been exhausted, then maybe you try a public rebuke to elicit a reaction. In this case the rebuke was relatively mild, even if it did not paint Sancho in the greatest light. Instead of responding in any way that could remotely be considered positive, or even apologize to the manager when afforded the opportunity Sancho has thrown a strop and shown exactly who he is.

Also, it's laughable to think this incident has killed his re-sale value more than his disinterested, unimpressive performances over 2 plus seasons at United. The reason his re-sale value is garbage is due to his own poor performance levels in addition to the ridiculous wages he's on which he has come nowhere near justifying, not because ETH and him are having a public dispute.

Finally, if we're worried about squad harmony, reporting has suggested teammates have been left unimpressed with his levels in training also. They also would be aware of the issues ongoing between the player and the manager. Is it better for the squad to leave Sancho out altogether for the time being, or to bring back a player who isn't providing the subsequent level in training, let alone matches, or bring him back into the mix? I don't think it's as clear cut either way, because even if he was back in training there would be a lot of media focus and scrutiny on him, his relationship with ETH, and ultimately how he's used on match day. Removing him from the equation makes it very straightforward for the manager when asked, and gives the squad clarity on the situation. That seems better to me in this situation.
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There was no need bring all this nonsense out in the public. IMO Sancho should not have been given time off last year, if he had asked for it his wages should have been docked. All his tardiness should be punished as per contract stipulations. None of this giving him early schedule nonsense, that itself is showing weakness from the manager's part. All EtH had to do was answer diplomatically in the press conference and quietly phase out Sancho from the playing 11 altogether. We don't need all these in the public. We don't need other players taking sides. We don't need all this drama.
 
frostbite said:
I don't think anyone is taking Sancho's side. Sancho should be sold. But ETH did not make it easier to sell the player by telling everyone that this player is lazy.

ETH is the boss. If he needs to tell the public, he is actually undermining himself as a boss, because he shows he cannot solve the problems internally. And he has many tools, fines, not playing Sancho, selling him, whatever. He does not need to tell us about it. He needs to solve the problem internally.
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He never told anyone Sancho is lazy though. Where did you see that?
That's why I initially thought Sancho wasn't responding to the boss at all, but all the chatter online.

And being honest about a player's training performances not meeting the criteria for selection against others undermines nothing in my opinion.
 
Rossa said:
I am on about what is wise to do and what is not. Alcohol impairs your efforts on the pitch and in training. Sancho was called out for being a poor trainer. Then he proceeds to publish an image of himself at a party in New York. Jetlag and partying will do him no favours trying to win back game time or improve performances.

It’s most likely not contractually wrong, but it’s unwise. Or do you think it was wiser than him hitting the gym and doing what Pellistri did?
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Were you there at the party? Do you know he drank for sure? Who are you to advise what players can and can't do? Stop this nonsense of judging players through social media. We are only entitled to talk about what he does on the pitch.
 
Glorio said:
He never told anyone Sancho is lazy though. Where did you see that?
That's why I initially thought Sancho wasn't responding to the boss at all, but all the chatter online.

And being honest about a player's training performances not meeting the criteria for selection against others undermines nothing in my opinion.
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Exactly. He had already left him out of the squad so that was the only explanation if he was fit.
 
Kag said:
Who has Ten Hag accused of drinking?

Your posts are funny. Are you reading them back before you hit send?
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It was an analogy with telling the press that Sancho is lazy. In SAF's first years one problem was heavy drinking, but SAF did not tell the press about any particular player who is drinking. He just sold the heavy drinkers, he did not tell everyone that they are heavy drinkers.
 
redIndianDevil said:
Were you there at the party? Do you know he drank for sure? Who are you to advise what players can and can't do? Stop this nonsense of judging players through social media. We are only entitled to talk about what he does on the pitch.
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And normally at parties you go to bed at six and no jetlag involved. We can both only speculate about alcohol. Valuable time he ahould have proved to himself and his doubters wrong. He could have spent time proving eth wrong, instead he carried more firewood to the fire.
 
saivet said:
Do wonder if the refused to mention him by name line in sensationalised as managers will regularly respond to questions about players without saying their name. Unsurprisingly, ETH hasn't given us any details but that's in line with his press conferences in general.
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He was asked two questions about Sancho and he refused to talk about him at all. He started talking about Arsenal match and preparation for Brighton.

Sancho is gone gone.
 
redIndianDevil said:
Sancho is not seeing it this way and has decided to make his view public as well. The only result is the negativity surrounding the club. The actual issue has only worsened. All the people supporting what EtH has done is this case are not seeing the negative repercussions this is going to cause to our club.
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After a year of coddling which has not worked, it looks like EtH was setting him a challenge, which Sancho has failed dismally to rise to. I’m guessing EtH thought the player had more basic intelligence and would respond to this mild criticism (the reason for which has been a consistent theme in this player’s short career so far) by upping his game, as most people would. As it happens, the player responded very stupidly and irrationally. By reacting as he did, he’s committed professional suicide and demonstrated his toxicity. What club would want such a player?

You argue that this will cause negative repercussions for the club, but I don’t see that. It’s annoying we overpaid this player so much it’s not possible to get rid of him, and it’s annoying that the player has no interest in meeting basic standards of professionalism, but I don’t see it affecting the club negatively. If anything it shows the world that we wont tolerate unprofessionalism and that high standards are being re-established, at last.
 
Giggsy13 said:
You really just want to find any stick to beat ten Hag with don’t you…he did the right thing, feck Sancho.
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In this situation yes. EtH made a mistake and I will hold this against him.

What he did now when asked about Sancho is what he should have done after the Arsenal game.
 
frostbite said:
SAF was strict. But SAF was not telling the press about who is lazy and who is drinking.
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He didn't have to tell. Beckham walked around with a cut on his head. If today's kids got a boot to the face, they and their agents will be moaning and moaning for weeks.
 
FootyGirl88 said:
SAF nearly blinded Beckham but I guess you’re not ready for that conversation
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He engaged becks with a football boot and Becks himself didnt make a big deal about it in his bio book. So if Becks didnt make a big deal out of it you shouldn't either
 
frostbite said:
It was an analogy with telling the press that Sancho is lazy. In SAF's first years one problem was heavy drinking, but SAF did not tell the press about any particular player who is drinking. He just sold the heavy drinkers, he did not tell everyone that they are heavy drinkers.
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Analogy....i.e making it up. EtH never mentioned anything about drinking
 
stevoc said:
Yes of course, all he had to do was not say what he did and then the media wouldn't have been able to spin in into the drama they did.

Journailist: Why was Jadon not involved today?

Ten Hag: Jadon is injured/sick/lacking fitness-sharpness. He'll hopefully be ready after the International break.

Stock boring manager response, no drama would ensue.



He probably should have just said he was injured back then as well. Don't know about you but not sure I would appreciate my boss making public announcements on my mental health either.
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Posts like these keep popping up and they just scream “I’ve got no management experience and I wouldn’t like my boss to make an example of me”.

Sancho has had every single high level, high price support available to him from the current management during his time at the club. He still cannot get to work on time and he still cannot train to a high enough standard to please the current management.

Im sure you’re aware that managers lose their jobs based on results, and in order to get favourable results they employ levels of structure and consequence to ensure that everyone pulls in the same direction. If you have tried absolutely everything to get a response out of someone, sometimes you have to take the stick approach if the carrot doesn’t work. It’s a valid method of management and it can be very effective.

Ten Hag is coming into another season where we’ve started badly and there are certain players who are just taking the piss and making him look bad. His options are to copy Solsjaker and let them get him fired while he stands there and defends poor little Jandon Sancho and his poor mental health caused by getting to work on time, or he can come out and say some players aren’t doing what they should be, and buy himself some more time as we the fans understand what kind of a shit show he’s having to put up with behind the scenes.

There was no drama until Sancho decided to call his boss a liar. That’s what blew this situation up. Publicly undermining your manager will get you sacked anywhere in the world.

If you couldn’t get to work on time you’d be fired. Imagine what that would do for your ‘mental health’.
 
Why is this nothing burger thread on the frontpage all week?

Player has been 'suspended' (wouldn't have started anyway) and team is preparing for Brighton. Are people doing that thing where they regurgitate arguments over and over again in the same thread?
 
redIndianDevil said:
There was no need bring all this nonsense out in the public. IMO Sancho should not have been given time off last year, if he had asked for it his wages should have been docked. All his tardiness should be punished as per contract stipulations. None of this giving him early schedule nonsense, that itself is showing weakness from the manager's part. All EtH had to do was answer diplomatically in the press conference and quietly phase out Sancho from the playing 11 altogether. We don't need all these in the public. We don't need other players taking sides. We don't need all this drama.
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So let's say he answers diplomatically. Okay good that's one week covered. Sancho does the same shit this week and is out of the squad again for Brighton, now what? You don't think the press would be all over that if Sancho just stopped appearing in the squad again?
 
frostbite said:
The club may have asked him to be strict.

The club did not tell the press that asked him to be strict.
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Well, feels like you are deliberately piling on ETH now. If after doing all his work privately last season he still sees no improvement and decides to make it public it is on the players to prove the manager wrong. Sure the club loses the value on Sancho because of ETH's comments now but its not like he ever showed he was even worth 30m at any point playing for us.
 
redIndianDevil said:
There was no need bring all this nonsense out in the public. IMO Sancho should not have been given time off last year, if he had asked for it his wages should have been docked. All his tardiness should be punished as per contract stipulations. None of this giving him early schedule nonsense, that itself is showing weakness from the manager's part. All EtH had to do was answer diplomatically in the press conference and quietly phase out Sancho from the playing 11 altogether. We don't need all these in the public. We don't need other players taking sides. We don't need all this drama.
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Your underlying assumption is that ETH has not tried these things despite, actually having done so with other players. If that is the case then why would he not have already tried them with Sancho? He probably did and still never got the response he was hoping to from the player.
 
BarryWinks said:
Why is this nothing burger thread on the frontpage all week?

Player has been 'suspended' (wouldn't have started anyway) and team is preparing for Brighton. Are people doing that thing where they regurgitate arguments over and over again in the same thread?
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One guy has been going at it for about ten pages now in a war Vs anyone that will respond
 
frostbite said:
So now he is telling everyone in public that Ole was not good at his job! This is probably true, too, but again this is a mistake by ETH. I don't think it is a good idea to tell everyone about it. In my opinion, all these are bad mistakes. There is no reason to tell the public that so many others are useless. Do your work internally and let the results speak for you. Be strict internally, but there is no reason to tell everyone about it.

Usually, it is managers who feel they are already failing, that go to the public and blame everyone else.
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Bloody hell. Give it a rest.

Since when did the world become so sensitive?
 
frostbite said:
No, "analogy" does not mean "making it up". Look it up in your dictionary.
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Well in your case it does. Someone calls you out on it and you claim in was just an analogy to something else. It's nonsense.

EtH never mentioned anything about drinking. EtH never said he was lazy. EtH never said Ole was bad at his job.

All things you have incorrectly claimed over the last few pages. You clearly have an agenda, but get a grip.
 
redIndianDevil said:
In this situation yes. EtH made a mistake and I will hold this against him.

What he did now when asked about Sancho is what he should have done after the Arsenal game.
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He did the same thing with Rashford last year. You have to have consistency otherwise discipline falls apart.
 
AR87 said:
Your underlying assumption is that ETH has not tried these things despite, actually having done so with other players. If that is the case then why would he not have already tried them with Sancho? He probably did and still never got the response he was hoping to from the player.
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Even then the course of action to take was to drop him from the team but show a united front to the media.
 
gza the genius said:
So let's say he answers diplomatically. Okay good that's one week covered. Sancho does the same shit this week and is out of the squad again for Brighton, now what? You don't think the press would be all over that if Sancho just stopped appearing in the squad again?
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I'm not asking EtH to give Sancho chances. Just drop him and say Pellistri or whoever replaces Sancho plays well or suits the tactics more. Didn't EtH play Shaw at CB when Maguire was fit? That's how you handle these problems internally.
 
redIndianDevil said:
There was no need bring all this nonsense out in the public. IMO Sancho should not have been given time off last year, if he had asked for it his wages should have been docked. All his tardiness should be punished as per contract stipulations. None of this giving him early schedule nonsense, that itself is showing weakness from the manager's part. All EtH had to do was answer diplomatically in the press conference and quietly phase out Sancho from the playing 11 altogether. We don't need all these in the public. We don't need other players taking sides. We don't need all this drama.
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He didn’t need to go public so he must have a reason for doing so, maybe a last attempt to get through to Sancho or a message to the club that he has no future and wants him sold.

Sancho needs to go, if this pushes him out the door quicker then I don’t have an issue with it, short term it isn’t ideal but more accountability within the squad and less tolerance is required beyond the short term.
 
redIndianDevil said:
I'm not asking EtH to give Sancho chances. Just drop him and say Pellistri or whoever replaces Sancho plays well or suits the tactics more. Didn't EtH play Shaw at CB when Maguire was fit? That's how you handle these problems internally.
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Why should Sancho's poor standards be kept a secret? If Sancho can't turn up on time or train like he cares for our club, why shouldn't after multiple efforts to find a solution EtH be honest with us? I don't remember such an outcry over Rashford, and why was that? Because Rashford responded the right way and got on with it.
 
Oh no where will we find another player to shirk every single 50/50?
 
redIndianDevil said:
I'm not asking EtH to give Sancho chances. Just drop him and say Pellistri or whoever replaces Sancho plays well or suits the tactics more. Didn't EtH play Shaw at CB when Maguire was fit? That's how you handle these problems internally.
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But that's exactly what he did? He did say he has choices and due to training performances decided to include other players.
 
redIndianDevil said:
Even then the course of action to take was to drop him from the team but show a united front to the media.
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You wouldn't avoid the conversation by dropping him from the team. Media is going to ask about it. If the expectation is ETH lie to cover for the player's poor performance levels in training, that's completely ridiculous. Basically then what you're saying is he needs to lie, because if he's honest then Sancho is justified in having a meltdown.

Again, you cannot just keep carrying an underperformer and protecting him non-stop. If that is the expectation then you undermine your manager and make his position weak. It's untenable.
 
frostbite said:
It was an analogy with telling the press that Sancho is lazy. In SAF's first years one problem was heavy drinking, but SAF did not tell the press about any particular player who is drinking. He just sold the heavy drinkers, he did not tell everyone that they are heavy drinkers.
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He didn’t say Sancho was lazy.
 
AR87 said:
You wouldn't avoid the conversation by dropping him from the team. Media is going to ask about it. If the expectation is ETH lie to cover for the player's poor performance levels in training, that's completely ridiculous. Basically then what you're saying is he needs to lie, because if he's honest then Sancho is justified in having a meltdown.

Again, you cannot just keep carrying an underperformer and protecting him non-stop. If that is the expectation then you undermine your manager and make his position weak. It's untenable.
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First of all, we are not answerable to the media. It doesn't matter if we are telling the truth or not. I expect our manager to be truthful in appraisals of players and pass on feedback to people above him. He can be as candid he wants to be with Murtough or whoever else that is part of the club. To all others we have to show a united front no matter what. Press keeps asking about Sancho you divert attention or you handle diplomatically. Behind the scenes you can poison Sancho for all I care.

I hate talking about Pep Guardiola, but he dropped and got rid off Cancelo midseason when Cancelo was performing quite well. To date media hasn't questioned Guariola about it. He hasn't talked bad about Cancelo but its clear he isn't going to use him as much. That's how you handle players you deem useless.
 
AR87 said:
You wouldn't avoid the conversation by dropping him from the team. Media is going to ask about it. If the expectation is ETH lie to cover for the player's poor performance levels in training, that's completely ridiculous. Basically then what you're saying is he needs to lie, because if he's honest then Sancho is justified in having a meltdown.

Again, you cannot just keep carrying an underperformer and protecting him non-stop. If that is the expectation then you undermine your manager and make his position weak. It's untenable.
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Never heard of a manager being forced to be 100% honest all the time. Media is going to ask about it yes, he didnt have to go on a rant like he did. Just a simple "tactical reasons:" is fine. Gabriel got dropped at the beginning of the season, and Arteta is a clown but even he didn't make a drama out of it.
 
redIndianDevil said:
There was no need bring all this nonsense out in the public. IMO Sancho should not have been given time off last year, if he had asked for it his wages should have been docked. All his tardiness should be punished as per contract stipulations. None of this giving him early schedule nonsense, that itself is showing weakness from the manager's part. All EtH had to do was answer diplomatically in the press conference and quietly phase out Sancho from the playing 11 altogether. We don't need all these in the public. We don't need other players taking sides. We don't need all this drama.
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Out of interest, who’s ‘side’ do you think people would inadvertently pick if we keep losing games? Who gets sacked and who gets to stay on a massive contract despite being part of the problem? Maybe you were delighted Solskjaer took the bullet for the players? Worked out great so far hasn’t it?
 
mu4c_20le said:
Never heard of a manager being forced to be 100% honest all the time. Media is going to ask about it yes, he didnt have to go on a rant like he did. Just a simple "tactical reasons:" is fine. Gabriel got dropped at the beginning of the season, and Arteta is a clown but even he didn't make a drama out of it.
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Hardly a rant.

So for the foreseeable future he is supposed to just keep saying "tactical reasons"? With a straight face pretending everyone else in the room is stupid? Or will we just play a game of whats the excuse this week?
 
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