Erik ten Hag vs Sancho | Sancho back in full training

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But do the players believe that he is in a position of strength?

Nobody can question Pep, because he has won many trophies already. ETH is the same age as Pep but he hasn't won anything important yet.

ETH hasn't managed Barcelona with Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Alves, and Puyol.

ETH hasn't managed Bayern Munich in that one club league.

ETH hasn't managed Man City and their endless money and 100+ rule breaches.

Pep has only taken the easy route in his entire career.
 
But do the players believe that he is in a position of strength?

Nobody can question Pep, because he has won many trophies already. ETH is the same age as Pep but he hasn't won anything important yet.

Nobody knows for sure and it could change in the blink of an eye, such is the results based and fickle nature of football but I guess you could ask Ronaldo, Rashford, De Gea, Maguire, Garnacho, Fred, AWB, Shaw (i.e all ones that suffered some 'punishment') to the the likes of Varane, Casemiro, Martinez, Bruno, Antony, Eriksen (who have publicly backed the manager) if they knew who the boss was and who was the one making the decisions.

And for the ones, who don't believe he's from a position of strength, ETH has certainly tried his best with consistent decisions and seems like he will continue to do so. Just check out his comments about Garnacho's performances recently. If the players don't respond, then we should be supporting the manager on this because by powers of deductions, the players are the one common denominator in our failures of recent years.
 
Perhaps this is an issue of your perspective then because ETH is also doing this from a position of strength. He sees himself as the boss at the top of the hierarchy and whilst he hasn't been flawless in his decision making, communication or methodology, he's been pretty consistent with trying instill standards and consistency. It has always followed a set of patterns 1) give them a long leash and benefit of the doubt 2) expect standards 3) 'deliver' and that can mean professionalism, work rate and/or productivity on/off the pitch 4) if they don't, then ETH will intervene decisively.

He's done that with Ronaldo, De Gea, Maguire, Rashford, Garnacho, Shaw, AWB and many others at various stages and it's happening with Sancho.

Could this have been handled better? Yes but hindsight and 100% hit rate decision making is expecting perfection and a dumb hill to die on.

Right now we need to back the manager. Sancho may have potentially caught a stray and be part of the collateral damage but he's had more than his fair share of opportunities. It's unfair if you want you micro analyse it but that's life and the professional football standards.
Thing is it’s the timing of it all. Did we need this drama in the middle of such a huge injury crisis, poor form and all the shit from Greenwood and Antony?

If he had just answered Pellistri or whoever trained well so we gave them a chance ahead Sancho, all of this nonsense could have been avoided.
 
ETH hasn't managed Barcelona with Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Alves, and Puyol.

ETH hasn't managed Bayern Munich in that one club league.

ETH hasn't managed Man City and their endless money and 100+ rule breaches.

Pep has only taken the easy route in his entire career.
Okay I know this is the Manchester United forum and we have to hate everything City related but this is the one of the biggest pieces of bullshit I’ve read in this forum.

We really have to respect what Guardiola has done in modern football. He may have done it only with big clubs but he got his chance by working his way from the bottom.
 
Thing is it’s the timing of it all. Did we need this drama in the middle of such a huge injury crisis, poor form and all the shit from Greenwood and Antony?

If he had just answered Pellistri or whoever trained well so we gave them a chance ahead Sancho, all of this nonsense could have been avoided.

Your reply perhaps proves my point about perspective. For ETH this isn't drama, this is just managing Man Utd and he don't give a shit if it's about Antony, Sancho or the injury crisis. He's got bigger things to worry about and to be fair to him, he's always been very consistent, 'it's about the players available and the performances in the next game'.

The 'drama' is media driven ABU and to be fair, fans like us on this forum/social media just commenting ourselves into a rage :drool:
 
but he got his chance by working his way from the bottom.

This isn't true. His playing career ended in 2006, in 2007 he is given a head coaching job with Barca B and is fast tracked after one season. This isn't some Ange Postecoglu 25 year climb to the summit.

I like Pep's football and appreciate his achievements but the privilege afforded.to him post drugs ban means he is also extremely fortunate.
 
This isn't true. His playing career ended in 2006, in 2007 he is given a head coaching job with Barca B and is fast tracked after one season. This isn't some Ange Postecoglu 25 year climb to the summit.

I like Pep's football and appreciate his achievements but the privilege afforded.to him post drugs ban means he is also extremely fortunate.
Nothing was “afforded” to him. Of course as a successful player he gets a leg up obviously. He must have really worked hard to be a world class footballer.

He must have done something really good with the B team to be given a chance to manage such a big club.
 
Ferguson not only publicly trashed players, he trashed referees, reporters, opposition managers nobody was safe, SAF was a great manager but lets no be under any illusions that he was a saint, or even a particularly nice guy. In addition this couldn't have happened under SAF because the player would have had no way to immediately blurt out his gut reaction.... and lets be under no illusion if Sancho was under SAF he would not have been given half the leeway he has been and if he had come out publicly against SAF, he would have been out of the door faster than sh!t off a shovel (with a football boot in his mouth)

ETH did not publicly trash Sancho, he was asked why he was not in the squad and answered he hadn't trained to the level he required, Sancho would have already been aware of this, if it was a shock to him then I would say that is Sancho's problem right there on a plate, if anything I read more between the lines that he was embarrassed about his previous extended absence for mental issues having been made public, and his behaviour now is more of a reaction to that than this, it has bottled up, I would have more sympathy if this is the case but either which way his reaction is so disproportionate and ill conceived, the problem with social media is that is gives a very loud megaphone to people who really should not have one.

From my experience as somebody who has Managed staff for several decades, you can only bend so far so often, then comes a time when you run the risk of being dictated to by a team member and that is extremely damaging to the whole business, heard the expression give him an inch and he will take a mile? some staff are like that, by all accounts Sancho has received extensive support and special treatment as an individual since ETH has been at the club, in order to address the issues that Sancho has around his attitude, timekeeping etc. but there comes a point where it has to be shut down, that point was reached

And lets face it if you accept that Sancho turns up late, larks around and does not put enough effort into training then why do we give a sh1t if his feelings are hurt? he makes a load of money for kicking a ball, I know that doesn't mean he doesn't have feelings etc... or that he should take everything in his stride... but as somebody who has worked hard since leaving education often doing jobs that really don't float my boat, if he cannot appreciate what an opportunity and privilege he has it is an insult to every hard working person that buys a ticket, a shirt, pays a tv subscription, and everyone that escapes their own miserable lives for 90 minutes every weekend.... all he has to do it make the effort

SAF knew which player he could trash, and which player he should talk to in person. That is what I want.
 
SAF knew which player he could trash, and which player he should talk to in person. That is what I want.
All ETH said was that he hadn't been picked because we have options in attack and his training performances didn't merit a place ahead of others. If that's thrashing a player, we're fecked
 
Shouldn't they be trying to squash this now? Why not just agree to disagree! This is so stupid...... and on brand right now.

The ball is firmly in Sancho's court, if he apologises and starts training and behaving like a professional then there may be a way back for him. It would set a terrible example if they just agreed to disagree and he was brought back into the squad after undermining the manager.
 
The ball is firmly in Sancho's court, if he apologises and starts training and behaving like a professional then there may be a way back for him. It would set a terrible example if they just agreed to disagree and he was brought back into the squad after undermining the manager.
1. The ball is in both of their courts.
2. How does agreeing to disagree amicably undermine the manager? Is that what you feel everytime you see that happen? Personally, I respect it, it shows emotional maturity.

If Sancho knocks on his door and says "I disagree with what you said but can we get past this"
Do you think that undermines him?
Do you see a potential resulution?
Would that not be good enough for you?

One thing this highlights is that none of you are good managers.... but don't take it personally, really good managers are few and far between in the work place.
 
I think this is where the issue of 'realpolitik' arises, @afrocentricity . In a normal job it might well be the case that both sides would back down to get it over with but even then it might only be for a short while before some further enmity appears.
It therefore becomes a postponement before one or more both parties leave the club which begs the question of why not do it that way first?
ETH's job is arguably quite unstable, most football manager contracts are and it might only take 3 or 4 games with some 6-0 horror scores to get the pressure on.
He's therefore got to be the 'lightning rod' for the team and take responsibility for the team's performance to the owners and fans of the club but in return will demand total dedication from the players.
Therefore I don't think he can afford to leave this Sancho issue only partly addressed with the team wondering when it will flare up again.
 
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Ferguson not only publicly trashed players, he trashed referees, reporters, opposition managers nobody was safe, SAF was a great manager but lets no be under any illusions that he was a saint, or even a particularly nice guy. In addition this couldn't have happened under SAF because the player would have had no way to immediately blurt out his gut reaction.... and lets be under no illusion if Sancho was under SAF he would not have been given half the leeway he has been and if he had come out publicly against SAF, he would have been out of the door faster than sh!t off a shovel (with a football boot in his mouth)

ETH did not publicly trash Sancho, he was asked why he was not in the squad and answered he hadn't trained to the level he required, Sancho would have already been aware of this, if it was a shock to him then I would say that is Sancho's problem right there on a plate, if anything I read more between the lines that he was embarrassed about his previous extended absence for mental issues having been made public, and his behaviour now is more of a reaction to that than this, it has bottled up, I would have more sympathy if this is the case but either which way his reaction is so disproportionate and ill conceived, the problem with social media is that is gives a very loud megaphone to people who really should not have one.

From my experience as somebody who has Managed staff for several decades, you can only bend so far so often, then comes a time when you run the risk of being dictated to by a team member and that is extremely damaging to the whole business, heard the expression give him an inch and he will take a mile? some staff are like that, by all accounts Sancho has received extensive support and special treatment as an individual since ETH has been at the club, in order to address the issues that Sancho has around his attitude, timekeeping etc. but there comes a point where it has to be shut down, that point was reached

And lets face it if you accept that Sancho turns up late, larks around and does not put enough effort into training then why do we give a sh1t if his feelings are hurt? he makes a load of money for kicking a ball, I know that doesn't mean he doesn't have feelings etc... or that he should take everything in his stride... but as somebody who has worked hard since leaving education often doing jobs that really don't float my boat, if he cannot appreciate what an opportunity and privilege he has it is an insult to every hard working person that buys a ticket, a shirt, pays a tv subscription, and everyone that escapes their own miserable lives for 90 minutes every weekend.... all he has to do it make the effort
Good post. I’ve backed ten Hag on this all the way. I’m not having that because he was making questionable team selections and transfers that that absolved the leeway for him to criticise Sancho not being up to standard.
I think when most people in football current and ex are saying ten Hag is in the right here, he probably is.
 
1. The ball is in both of their courts.
2. How does agreeing to disagree amicably undermine the manager? Is that what you feel everytime you see that happen? Personally, I respect it, it shows emotional maturity.

If Sancho knocks on his door and says "I disagree with what you said but can we get past this"
Do you think that undermines him?
Do you see a potential resulution?
Would that not be good enough for you?

One thing this highlights is that none of you are good managers.... but don't take it personally, really good managers are few and far between in the work place.

If it's enough for ten Hag then I'd respect his decision and move on, but it seems he has made it clear that for Sancho to have a path back to the first team he needs to offer an apology. Backing down now makes him look weak when he's done nothing wrong (in most people's eyes) and could lead to losing the dressing room. If you effectively call your manager a liar and say you're being scapegoated it's not something to just agree to disagree over and won't be swept under the rug, especially for a player who hasn't performed on the pitch for the vast majority of his United career.
 
If it's enough for ten Hag then I'd respect his decision and move on, but it seems he has made it clear that for Sancho to have a path back to the first team he needs to offer an apology. Backing down now makes him look weak when he's done nothing wrong (in most people's eyes) and could lead to losing the dressing room. If you effectively call your manager a liar and say you're being scapegoated it's not something to just agree to disagree over and won't be swept under the rug, especially for a player who hasn't performed on the pitch for the vast majority of his United career.
If you look at the actual back and forth and not the media furore and consequent angry online discourse, it was actually a lot more tame than that. It could have easily been squashed then, and can still be squashed now. Of course most are backing the manager, he could have handled it better imo but he hasn't done anything wrong.
 
Thing is it’s the timing of it all. Did we need this drama in the middle of such a huge injury crisis, poor form and all the shit from Greenwood and Antony?

If he had just answered Pellistri or whoever trained well so we gave them a chance ahead Sancho, all of this nonsense could have been avoided.
What he should have said was Sancho is turning up late for training so hes not been picked. Sancho couldnt have argued then.
 
What he should have said was Sancho is turning up late for training so hes not been picked. Sancho couldnt have argued then.

Your sitting hairs with that one. The criticism wasn't that bad and he had already tried the sensitive, nice approach. Sancho is a petulant child and if he didn't give that away with his post he did with everything since then. Whether EtH criticised his general attitude or got a bit more specific to focus on time keeping, Sancho is a sensitive Sally with little self awareness.
 
This is has gone for far too long than it has to and I think the club now should put Sancho on the chopping block and let him go, even if there was a case for his supposed "scapegoating" claims, he should've addressed it directly with EtH instead of going to SM!!!

EtH was clear, he said it's up to Sancho and still has given Sancho a chance to apologize and move forward.

It's over for Sancho, he never amounted to anything during his time and is a flop.

Hopefully we don't sign the likes of him ever again.
 
He has effectively downed tools and gone on strike , the fact that he is not playing does not seem to be bother him at all.

There is no way back for him at this club.
 
SAF knew which player he could trash, and which player he should talk to in person. That is what I want.
You have no idea whether Ten Hag tried talking multiple times to Sancho in person. In fact there's evidence to suggest he probably did.

Theres no chance Sancho survives under Ferguson, he'd probably have never bought him in the first place.
 
What he should have said was Sancho is turning up late for training so hes not been picked. Sancho couldnt have argued then.

We were facing Arsenal. None of us would have wanted our manager to focus on preparing excuses about not picking Sancho. He gave a valid reason and Sancho reacted awfully.
 
What he should have said was Sancho is turning up late for training so hes not been picked. Sancho couldnt have argued then.
That's wishful thinking. Do you really think that someone that's so thin skinned that he lashes out at the suggestion he hasn't trained well over the past week would just sit there and accept that his lack of professionalism has been publicly exposed?

Not to mention the morons on here who are still suggesting that EtH started all this by mentioning his training performance in response to a question, what would they say if EtH had called him out on his professionalism and timekeeping? Oh boy.
 
As much as I like the type of player that Sancho is and have longed for him to pick up his performance the reality is probably bourne out in this scenario.

We finally have a manager willing to hold players up to a standard. If Sancho is a casualty of this it is on him.
 
It's not like he's shown any effort since all this came out to show EtH that he's wrong in his assessment of him either by leaving the post pinned, leaking stuff to the media (presumably, with all the articles coming out about a week after the incident), and being seen on livestreamers' feeds playing FIFA while the players are preparing for games and at 3am.
 
ETH hasn't managed Barcelona with Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Alves, and Puyol.

ETH hasn't managed Bayern Munich in that one club league.

ETH hasn't managed Man City and their endless money and 100+ rule breaches.

Pep has only taken the easy route in his entire career.
I agree with your post. But I ask..

Are Zidane‘s CL titles down played as he always had goat goal scorer Ronaldo, Benzema, Bale, Modric, Kroos and Casemiro? He was given that side, he didn’t build it, and also started at Real B side.
 
I just hope TH doesnt meet halfway. This is all on Sancho who is paid an absolute fortune, yet puts playing Fifa all night, or whatever its called nowadays, over to actually turning up on time for what he is paid to do so inconsistently.
 
I just hope TH doesnt meet halfway. This is all on Sancho who is paid an absolute fortune, yet puts playing Fifa all night, or whatever its called nowadays, over to actually turning up on time for what he is paid to do so inconsistently.
If he does and Sancho bangs in 15 or so goals this season helping us on our campaign, it will be talked about as a masterstroke. Personally, I hope he does what he needs to so we can kill this nonsense and move on, without breaking his principles obviously.
 
If he does and Sancho bangs in 15 or so goals this season helping us on our campaign, it will be talked about as a masterstroke. Personally, I hope he does what he needs to so we can kill this nonsense and move on, without breaking his principles obviously.

That's an interesting question: What should a manager do in such a situation? What is his most important goal: to preserve his pride and authority or to get the maximum out of the league competition?
If MU finishes 6th at the end of the season and misses the CL by only 1-2 points, can the manager be blamed for not being flexible enough and not using all the resources (Sancho) he had, regardless of the arguing they have?
Is ten Hag's public image worth more than the club's success?
This is a interesting discussion.
 
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I wonder if Ten Hag would allow Sancho back in the team if he apologized, or if he’s truly done with him now. I suspect the latter.
 
I wonder if Ten Hag would allow Sancho back in the team if he apologized, or if he’s truly done with him now. I suspect the latter.
I’m sure he would be allowed back if he just apologised but you feel his career here at United is done now as long as Ten Hag is the manager. Sancho seems to dislike people who try to make him accountable and you just can’t work with that if you have any form of standards.
 
Even if he did apologise, there is nothing in sanchos performances to give reason for keeping him here. He's pretty much worthless to us performance wise. Ship him out in January.
 
If he does and Sancho bangs in 15 or so goals this season helping us on our campaign, it will be talked about as a masterstroke. Personally, I hope he does what he needs to so we can kill this nonsense and move on, without breaking his principles obviously.
Nothing I have seen from Sancho so far suggests this is remotely possible.
 
That's an interesting question: What should a manager do in such a situation? What is his most important goal: to preserve his pride and authority or to get the maximum out of the league competition?
If MU finishes 6th at the end of the season and misses the CL by only 1-2 points, can the manager be blamed for not being flexible enough and not using all the resources (Sancho) he had, regardless of the arguing they have?
Is ten Hag's public image worth more than the club's success?
This is a interesting discussion.
Have you watched Sancho play in the last 3 seasons? There is very little evidence that would suggest that him not being picked will have any kind of negative impact on where we finish in the league.
 
Have you watched Sancho play in the last 3 seasons? There is very little evidence that would suggest that him not being picked will have any kind of negative impact on where we finish in the league.

Last year he was the third highest scorer and the fourth highest provider of assists in the club. So he made a certain contribution. Maybe not as much as people fairly expected, but in the world of "small margins" he still had his impact.

Now he's still good enough to sit on the bench and be substituted in the last 15-20 minutes of a tie and try to influence the game. If he manages to do that even one time in 10, that's still 2 points more than the club has at the end of the season. As of today, no one knows if he would make a difference or not, but the chance is there.

And then the question is whether it should be the manager's job to maximise those chances, even if the manager suffers a temporary setback, or whether he should hold his line despite possible losses for the final result of the season.
 
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