Erik ten Hag vs Sancho | Sancho back in full training

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Then so be it. To me, the difference between ‘widely assumed’ and ‘widely known’ is more than academical in these matters. I can’t see it’s widely ‘known’ what was - and more importantly - is - the case. I’m sure you agree that anyone suffering from a real mental illness at some point in their life, should not therefore be exempt from the same standards others abide by for the reat of their lives? The accusation of ‘on his performance in training we didn't select him’ ahead of other professional footballers doing their best in training’ is not really anything anyone can link to mental health issues in any way shape or form, maybe with the exception if the one who said it was aware of that the person was currently mentally ill, which could be a good reason not to pick him for a professional football match, but also a reason not to compare his training performance to others’. I can’t see that anyone has implied that Sancho is currently mentally ill though, least of all himself, so I guess that is not so relevant. Again, I think we’d do best not to speculate about it either way. We know four things that’s been said, not the reasons why.
To be fair I just wanted to point out that I don't think the other poster was intentionally making stuff up, as that was simply what was widely talked about at the time. Depression is the most common theme, and he deleted all his socials at one point.

I don't really have a dog in this though, I've always thought the matter was a storm in a teacup that spiralled out of control. Ten hag could've been smarter in the pressers, and Sancho needs to grow up.
 
Let’s face it, he doesn’t have mental health issues, the manager has done him a solid in describing his dickhead behaviour as something he has to get right “mentally” before shipping him off to Holland and people have misread this as something bigger. There’s no depression or anything like that, the manager just stopped short of calling him a cnut in that original press conference.
We have a winner.
 
I was just watching Keano describe how all the players he fell out with when he was managing proved him right by never going on to achieve anything in their careers after that point.

You just know that Sancho's going to join an unfortunately long list of players we've recently had here that go on to do absolutely nothing of note in the game after they leave us.

In the same video Carragher says something like "he's done absolutely nothing for United". The fact that I'm even thinking to myself "has he done anything for us?" tells you everything you need to know.

You'd want to say to him "prove us wrong" but I'm sure many have tried to motivate him with those words for the last couple of years and he hasn't responded yet.
 
To be fair I just wanted to point out that I don't think the other poster was intentionally making stuff up, as that was simply what was widely talked about at the time. Depression is the most common theme, and he deleted all his socials at one point.

I don't really have a dog in this though, I've always thought the matter was a storm in a teacup that spiralled out of control. Ten hag could've been smarter in the pressers, and Sancho needs to grow up.
No I don’t necessarily think so either. But hearing hearsay is one thing, but making very astute claims based on them is another. It’s really not that important what you and I think. That’s true for anything relating football, yes, but on these kinds of matters, it might actually aggravate things when we as fans feel a collective urge to through our two pence into the ring like they were the winning ticket. :)
 
Does his mental health issue prevent him from saying sorry in private? Really nothing to lose here.

What ETH said, originally wasn't that bad, something you would see any EPL manager say, and likely would be forgotten in a week or two. Sancho chose to blow it up with his social media post, called manager a liar, unintentionally or not. A person with tiny bit of sense would delete it immediately but he did not. Something is seriously wrong about this boy.
why would someone bet his carrier on some shit that he's never going to win?
 
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Does his mental health issue prevent him from saying sorry in private? Really nothing to lose here.

What ETH said, originally wasn't that bad, something you would see any EPL manager say, and likely would be forgotten in a week or two. Sancho chose to blow it up with his social media post, called manager a liar, unintentionally or not. A person with tiny bit of sense would delete it immediately but he did not. Something is seriously wrong about this boy.
why would someone bet his carrier on some shit that he's never going to win?

Maybe he just enjoys getting paid by doing nothing, wouldn't surprise me given his general attitude since he came here.
 
:lol: :lol: :lol:

What relation are you to Sancho?
I strongly dislike that internal discussions are aired in the media; this is petty and unnecessary. Much of my respect for ETH has been lost after this. How on earth is Sancho supposed to bounce back from this? He can comfortably sit back and collect his salary while the club looks for a new employer for him. If I were Sancho, having struggled with mental health issues and experienced this, I would never play for the club again! It's beneath the club's dignity to air their dirty laundry in the media.
I see no difference between Jose and ETH, I don't think he's worthy of beeing our manager anymore, unless he fixes the problem he created! No more internal matters should be brought to the media.

Seriously? The manager did not criticize him really, he was asked about his performance in training which he answered honestly.
Realise the timing of it, it was a year and a half after he did not show up in any big matches, took a break to recover and when the team is struggling, the manager’s job is on the line what is he supposed to do?
Sancho has been supported by the club, and that is by paying a massive wage for him with some expectation in return. He can be shit in games but should try in training to show a good workplace attitude.
When you say eth is wrong for saying something we all know is true to certain degree, instead side with a player who left his team and club to hang out for dry in a difficult time. What does that say about his professionalism?
 
Seriously? The manager did not criticize him really, he was asked about his performance in training which he answered honestly.
Realise the timing of it, it was a year and a half after he did not show up in any big matches, took a break to recover and when the team is struggling, the manager’s job is on the line what is he supposed to do?
Sancho has been supported by the club, and that is by paying a massive wage for him with some expectation in return. He can be shit in games but should try in training to show a good workplace attitude.
When you say eth is wrong for saying something we all know is true to certain degree, instead side with a player who left his team and club to hang out for dry in a difficult time. What does that say about his professionalism?
It is after all ETH's job to monitor his squad, assess who performed best over training and allocate his resources accordingly. That rule applies to every single player, every week so it shouldn't be any kind of surprise. But I suppose some people build a huge ego and with that comes entitlement.
 
Finally we have a manager who is demanding hard work and high standards at the club - and it's been plain from the very first minute Sancho's appeared for us is that he's a fair-weather player. Pulling out of 50-50's, languid on the ball, getting out-fought by opposition, doesn't bust a gut in tracking back...it's been an endemic with this team/squad since SAF retired: standards were rock bottom and player power ruled the roster.

I am glad these overpaid primadonnas are being identified and either asked to shape up or ship out. We won't get near the top of football again by having players with this kind of attitude in/throughout the squad.
 
With heart rate trackers and other equipment measuring performance, it is no longer possible to hide in training. Tough luck Sancho. There are objective ways to measure effort nowadays.
 
If you slack at your job, you get put on performance improvement plans and if you don't improve after that you get sacked. I know most people don't sign 5 year contracts but surely there must be some terms in the contract stipulating that if the player doesn't put the effort in, and the club have tried to work with him to help him improve then he can be sued for breach of contract and released?
 
The closest situation looks like what Barcelona faced with Ousmane Dembele. That guy is more talented than Sancho but similar attitude and addiction to gaming.
 
I mean, that interview basically has e10h showering Sancho with support and painting him as a valuable member of the team. Singling out the 'physical but physical is also connected with mental' is unfortunate and tabloid level reporting.

It's funny because they dont mention everything else said that day and everything else shows a manager willing to invest time and effort into a player that is struggling. Interestingly most outlets also put the physical and mental in quotes because they're paraphrasing.

It's also funny because this was a non thing until someone chose to make a story out of it and now we're feeding the trolls
Spot on. And saying 'physical is also connected with mental' could easily mean something as simple as 'when your physical performance levels drop you can lose self-belief and focus' - and yet we have an armchair doctor taking that to mean 'severe depression' and repeating it as though it is fact.

I have complete compassion and understanding for anyone that is suffering with their mental health - I've struggled with it personally for many years now - but it's completely groundless and irresponsible to twist ETHs words like @Hester_manc has done. Also certain celebrities (not saying that Sancho has) have cottoned on to the fact that they can use 'mental health' as an excuse for pretty much anything and the general public and journalists are likely to a) be sympathetic and b) leave them alone - especially in this post-Caroline Flack world. It's an insult to the thousands of people for whom every single day is a battle.
 
There was clearly something bubbling under way before the Arsenal game and the instant Sancho response backs that up.

After all - didn’t we try and shift him to Saudi at the end of the window?

Unfortunately his value will now plummet so not sure what we will get for him come January or if he will have to go out on loan.

Another transfer disaster…..buy ‘em high - sell them low.
 
The sad truth is with Antony back following the integration of Hannibal and Pellistri into the first team the last few weeks he isn’t going to be missed in the slightest going forward.

and Amad too, even if fit and apologetic Sancho is going to need to show a serious improvement in his game to stay relevant.
 
still amazed every time i pop in here and see people still trying to somehow defend sancho and slate EtH.
The only thing I don't like is EtH making this issue public, that's what started this issue. Drop Sancho, banish him to the reserves, don't let him in at Carrington, do whatever you want behind doors. Why call him out publicly? That's not going to solve any issues. IMO we should always show a united front to the media no matter the chaos inside.

As for the people saying EtH would have already tried different avenues, then has his public outburst solved it? It has blown this out of proportion. Now we are talking about mental health depression etc. Serious stuff that most football fans take lightly, we don't know what Sancho is going through, it only brings more negativity around the club.

What EtH should have done is drop Sancho, handle press diplomatically, inform higher ups that Sancho is not training well, won't be picked up and ask them to sell him off.
 
The only thing I don't like is EtH making this issue public, that's what started this issue. Drop Sancho, banish him to the reserves, don't let him in at Carrington, do whatever you want behind doors. Why call him out publicly? That's not going to solve any issues. IMO we should always show a united front to the media no matter the chaos inside.
He was specifically asked why Sancho wasn't in the squad. He could have lied and said he was ill, but then what would he have said the following week, and the week after that? What he said is absolutely nothing compared to what Pep said about Williams, or Jose said about Shaw. Any other club and this wouldn't even have been made into an issue.
 
The only thing I don't like is EtH making this issue public, that's what started this issue. Drop Sancho, banish him to the reserves, don't let him in at Carrington, do whatever you want behind doors. Why call him out publicly? That's not going to solve any issues. IMO we should always show a united front to the media no matter the chaos inside.
Erik said Sancho is not training to United player level, obviously didn't know Sancho is spoilt little brat and will post tweet defending himself. If Little Diva did not write that tweet everybody forgets about it.
Pep said Phillips is overweighted, no tweet, nobody remembers it any more. Only our little Diva's feel the need to justify themselfs. Why do we get such soft precious little folowers? Ole said we have lots of snowflakes. Unfortunately he bought some.
 
What a childish way to answer.

A manager should know how to handle the individual player in terms of personality. Ferguson would never have publicly trashed a player who six months ago had severe depression. And I would in no way call ETH supportive in this matter.
He could have dealt with Sancho internally if he was unhappy with his performance in training. It is a lack of situational awareness to direct such harsh - public - criticism against an employee, when you as a boss know that the person has just been ill with severe depression. What reaction did ETH expect?


It is as if ETH is not allowed to be criticized among some fans.

There is an alternative way of thinking here. Could it be that Ten Hag was thinking about his other players, especially the younger ones in the squad, when he made the decision to call out Sancho and subsequently freeze him out? After a year of coddling him behind the scenes, maybe ETH just rationalized the situation and thinks that he's best served making a decision that benefits the group, rather than Sancho. Let's face it, he's not exactly been prime Ronaldo for him to be pandered to. The more straight forward way of dealing with a rotten apple was to just take it out of the cart.
 
The only thing I don't like is EtH making this issue public, that's what started this issue. Drop Sancho, banish him to the reserves, don't let him in at Carrington, do whatever you want behind doors. Why call him out publicly? That's not going to solve any issues. IMO we should always show a united front to the media no matter the chaos inside.

As for the people saying EtH would have already tried different avenues, then has his public outburst solved it? It has blown this out of proportion. Now we are talking about mental health depression etc. Serious stuff that most football fans take lightly, we don't know what Sancho is going through, it only brings more negativity around the club.

What EtH should have done is drop Sancho, handle press diplomatically, inform higher ups that Sancho is not training well, won't be picked up and ask them to sell him off.
That is exactly what EtH did. He gave a coach speak, generic ass answer as to why sancho wasnt playing. It was a completely nothing comment. Sancho is the one who has blown this out of proportion. Once again you are blaming EtH for sancho's extremely childish behavior, that has been a problem his whole playing career. At some point Sancho has to look at himself and start to realize when people are having issues with his professionalism at every single club he plays for, maybe it is him.
 
He was specifically asked why Sancho wasn't in the squad. He could have lied and said he was ill, but then what would he have said the following week, and the week after that? What he said is absolutely nothing compared to what Pep said about Williams, or Jose said about Shaw. Any other club and this wouldn't even have been made into an issue.

He could have lied only if Sancho had agreed to keep his mouth shut. If they hadn't agreed on that (which seems to be the case, since Sancho believes that he deserves more game time) and ETH had said that he was ill, Sancho could have ridiculed him by denying everything and attaching photos from his partying in NY the following week. If they had agreed to telling a specific lie, any other underperforming member of the squad would have been expecting the same special treatment from the manager in the future. It's a lose-lose situation. ETH could have been more vague in his answer, something like: "We decided on a set of tactics for this game and Sancho wasn't a part of them, it can happen with any player...". But since we lost the game, the press would have portrayed him as someone with an egg on his face who got his arse handed to him by Pep's disciple. And any player with grievances about his playing time/future would have a platform to lay it into the manager. A manager can put his neck on the line for a player, but from a position of strength. Not when he is trying to implement a new game plan. And for players who are worth their salt, not for Woodward's assets.
 
A manager should know how to handle the individual player in terms of personality. Ferguson would never have publicly trashed a player who six months ago had severe depression. And I would in no way call ETH supportive in this matter.
He could have dealt with Sancho internally if he was unhappy with his performance in training. It is a lack of situational awareness to direct such harsh - public - criticism against an employee, when you as a boss know that the person has just been ill with severe depression. What reaction did ETH expect?

Ferguson not only publicly trashed players, he trashed referees, reporters, opposition managers nobody was safe, SAF was a great manager but lets no be under any illusions that he was a saint, or even a particularly nice guy. In addition this couldn't have happened under SAF because the player would have had no way to immediately blurt out his gut reaction.... and lets be under no illusion if Sancho was under SAF he would not have been given half the leeway he has been and if he had come out publicly against SAF, he would have been out of the door faster than sh!t off a shovel (with a football boot in his mouth)

ETH did not publicly trash Sancho, he was asked why he was not in the squad and answered he hadn't trained to the level he required, Sancho would have already been aware of this, if it was a shock to him then I would say that is Sancho's problem right there on a plate, if anything I read more between the lines that he was embarrassed about his previous extended absence for mental issues having been made public, and his behaviour now is more of a reaction to that than this, it has bottled up, I would have more sympathy if this is the case but either which way his reaction is so disproportionate and ill conceived, the problem with social media is that is gives a very loud megaphone to people who really should not have one.

From my experience as somebody who has Managed staff for several decades, you can only bend so far so often, then comes a time when you run the risk of being dictated to by a team member and that is extremely damaging to the whole business, heard the expression give him an inch and he will take a mile? some staff are like that, by all accounts Sancho has received extensive support and special treatment as an individual since ETH has been at the club, in order to address the issues that Sancho has around his attitude, timekeeping etc. but there comes a point where it has to be shut down, that point was reached

And lets face it if you accept that Sancho turns up late, larks around and does not put enough effort into training then why do we give a sh1t if his feelings are hurt? he makes a load of money for kicking a ball, I know that doesn't mean he doesn't have feelings etc... or that he should take everything in his stride... but as somebody who has worked hard since leaving education often doing jobs that really don't float my boat, if he cannot appreciate what an opportunity and privilege he has it is an insult to every hard working person that buys a ticket, a shirt, pays a tv subscription, and everyone that escapes their own miserable lives for 90 minutes every weekend.... all he has to do it make the effort
 
He was specifically asked why Sancho wasn't in the squad. He could have lied and said he was ill, but then what would he have said the following week, and the week after that? What he said is absolutely nothing compared to what Pep said about Williams, or Jose said about Shaw. Any other club and this wouldn't even have been made into an issue.

I think a number of posters in this thread are struggling with this exact point. ETH didn't call out anything, he got asked a question and gave an answer in a reasonable way. Saying any other lie would have equally made Sancho post on social media and then the same posters would have criticised him for lying.
 
That is exactly what EtH did. He gave a coach speak, generic ass answer as to why sancho wasnt playing. It was a completely nothing comment. Sancho is the one who has blown this out of proportion. Once again you are blaming EtH for sancho's extremely childish behavior, that has been a problem his whole playing career. At some point Sancho has to look at himself and start to realize when people are having issues with his professionalism at every single club he plays for, maybe it is him.
He was specifically asked why Sancho wasn't in the squad. He could have lied and said he was ill, but then what would he have said the following week, and the week after that? What he said is absolutely nothing compared to what Pep said about Williams, or Jose said about Shaw. Any other club and this wouldn't even have been made into an issue.
It’s about timing as well, the club is already mired in controversies, injury crisis and poor form. There was no need to make further negative news as well. What Mourinho did was plain moronic. Again guardiola does things from a position of strength, he is unquestionable by anyone right now proven by his coaching standards at multiple clubs.
 
99% of the blame lies on Sancho's thick dome, but ETH did not have to open the can of worms in the public manner that he did. But here we are.

Sancho may have burned every last bridge behind him, but if he has any hope of playing for United again -- or for any top club in any league -- he needs to apologize to the manager and then apologize to his teammates and accept whatever form of punishment, short of corporal punishment, and hope he gets to see the pitch again after the January transfer window. There is no viable path forward for the young man short of acknowledging that he's been a spoiled brat but that he learned from his mistakes and that's eager to perform like a professional athlete once again.
 
Been thinking about sancho. He hasn't performed in any capacity for us really. Personally, i would be thinking about selling him, getting what we can for him. The longer he doesn't perform when participating in games, the longer we have deadwood in the squad.
 
and Amad too, even if fit and apologetic Sancho is going to need to show a serious improvement in his game to stay relevant.
Yeah, this season was already a make or break for him at United before the season even started. He's fecked it and for him to make it, he'll pretty much need to produce Dortmund numbers for him to stay beyond this season.
 
I think a number of posters in this thread are struggling with this exact point. ETH didn't call out anything, he got asked a question and gave an answer in a reasonable way. Saying any other lie would have equally made Sancho post on social media and then the same posters would have criticised him for lying.
Exactly, and that would also have undermined Ten Hag's credibility. Maybe Ten Hag could have said something like, "he's not in the squad but maybe in the next one" and tried to pass it off as a language barrier. The problem is, it would have put him in an untenable situation with regards the press. I think it speaks to Ten Hag's integrity that he's not willing to say something like "he has (is) a virus". You can see that's how he treats everyone.
 
Exactly, and that would also have undermined Ten Hag's credibility. Maybe Ten Hag could have said something like, "he's not in the squad but maybe in the next one" and tried to pass it off as a language barrier. The problem is, it would have put him in an untenable situation with regards the press. I think it speaks to Ten Hag's integrity that he's not willing to say something like "he has (is) a virus". You can see that's how he treats everyone.
You seriously expect the manager to cover for a player who has had constant issues? No manager does that, and SAF would have kicked him out a long time aho
 
You seriously expect the manager to cover for a player who has had constant issues? No manager does that, and SAF would have kicked him out a long time aho
Like he did with Ravel? :smirk:

He was only harsh to those who became too big for their shoes, not to youngsters
 
It’s about timing as well, the club is already mired in controversies, injury crisis and poor form. There was no need to make further negative news as well. What Mourinho did was plain moronic. Again guardiola does things from a position of strength, he is unquestionable by anyone right now proven by his coaching standards at multiple clubs.

Perhaps this is an issue of your perspective then because ETH is also doing this from a position of strength. He sees himself as the boss at the top of the hierarchy and whilst he hasn't been flawless in his decision making, communication or methodology, he's been pretty consistent with trying instill standards and consistency. It has always followed a set of patterns 1) give them a long leash and benefit of the doubt 2) expect standards 3) 'deliver' and that can mean professionalism, work rate and/or productivity on/off the pitch 4) if they don't, then ETH will intervene decisively.

He's done that with Ronaldo, De Gea, Maguire, Rashford, Garnacho, Shaw, AWB and many others at various stages and it's happening with Sancho.

Could this have been handled better? Yes but hindsight and 100% hit rate decision making is expecting perfection and a dumb hill to die on.

Right now we need to back the manager. Sancho may have potentially caught a stray and be part of the collateral damage but he's had more than his fair share of opportunities. It's unfair if you want you micro analyse it but that's life and the professional football standards.
 
Perhaps this is an issue of your perspective then because ETH is also doing this from a position of strength. He sees himself as the boss at the top of the hierarchy and whilst he hasn't been flawless in his decision making, communication or methodology, he's been pretty consistent with trying instill standards and consistency. It has always followed a set of patterns 1) give them a long leash and benefit of the doubt 2) expect standards 3) 'deliver' and that can mean professionalism, work rate and/or productivity on/off the pitch 4) if they don't, then ETH will intervene decisively.

He's done that with Ronaldo, De Gea, Maguire, Rashford, Garnacho, Shaw, AWB and many others at various stages and it's happening with Sancho.

Could this have been handled better? Yes but hindsight and 100% hit rate decision making is expecting perfection and a dumb hill to die on.

Right now we need to back the manager. Sancho may have potentially caught a stray and be part of the collateral damage but he's had more than his fair share of opportunities. It's unfair if you want you micro analyse it but that's life and the professional football standards.

But do the players believe that he is in a position of strength?

Nobody can question Pep, because he has won many trophies already. ETH is the same age as Pep but he hasn't won anything important yet.
 
Shouldn't they be trying to squash this now? Why not just agree to disagree! This is so stupid...... and on brand right now.
 
Why call him out publicly?
ETH didnt.Get your fact straingth. It was Sancho who decided to make it a battle.

Most people already forgot what ETH said after the loss and they had been more angry about result than anything until Sancho made that social media post and brought himself into the spotlight
 
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