I can understand some scepticism after the season we just had, but the amount of posters that seem to be absolutely sure that nothing will improve next season is baffling. No mid-season takeover, young players improving and adding players to the squad should help, and the odds that we'll have a season-long injury crisis are low. If we don't see any improvement, or not enough, then ten Hag should go - that goes without saying. I believe that, given the right signings and departures, we should be at a much healthier place than last season and we should see the results of that on the pitch. ten Hag is a good coach, last season was a statistical anomaly in his career so far. I'm content with giving him a chance to rectify last season.
Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Jamie (@Vault Dweller) are joined by special guest Anders (@Lyng) to celebrate the news that ETH is staying put! They also talk about the Euros so far, with special attention on England, Scotland and Denmark. They then finish with some transfer talk and the potential comings and outgoings at Old Trafford.
The benefit of hindsight can be good sometimes but this ain't it.
The consensus was that Arsenal did not have a squad capable of mounting a title run in 22/23. The Guardian's sport writers predicted their final league position as 5th. The BBC polled 23 pundits / ex-players and they also predicted Arsenal's final league position as 5th. The Athletic's writers all had Arsenal missing out on the top 4 spot too. The Arsenal 22/23 thread on Redcafe had no optimism for a title race among the Arsenal fans (GoonerBear, Powderfinger, awop), just hope of competing for top 4. Arsenal's 21/22 campaign was nothing more than OK either. They scored less goals than all the teams in the top 4 and conceded more too.
No one backed us to get top 3 and a cup in ten hags first year either. Progress is not linear and making the next step doesn't magically happen in one season just because it happened for another club. There are a ton of different variables driving the progress outside of who is in the hot seat, and I'm sure you're smart enough to know that.
I think the primary concern is irrespective of assessing the season before last or the most recent campaign, United haven't looked a consistent outfit for performances with Erik as the manager. At a push I would say the team has looked good for a period of three months from December 22 - February / March 23. It's a very small sample size for fans to place an unambiguous amount of confidence within.
Erik is in substantially the same bracket Ole was in, not assessing their managerial pedigree but encountering the same stumbling block in experiencing the struggle to successfully move the team's DNA from the pressure absorbing methodology to a progressively more front-foot ideology. Solslkjaer didn't seem to possess any capacity to do so and while Erik has at the very least attempted to do so but with massive deficiencies in his tactical accommodation in both the midfield and the teams ability to deal with a turnover of possession.
I think it's a very optimistic 'ta dah' mindset to think that having more favorable circumstances will drastically change the dynamic of the teams performances next season. I mostly made negative predictions on account of the summer transfer activity and the managers change in philosophy that in part came correct and I think the writings on the wall again to some extent. Erik has ditched the supposed framework to replicate what he did at Ajax and unless INEOS forcefully implore the manager to re-attend that decision it's hard to assess his relativity to build a successful system / foundation for the team to build on over the course of the entire season.
I mean I think results themselves will probably improve somewhat provided the window goes well and players are fit for most of the season. But I don't think just improving baseline results would be any sort of credit towards ETH. Going from 8th to 5th isn't going to instill belief for me unless we improve actual performances MASSIVELY over what we've gotten to see from the past 18 months or so.
Totally agree I think many are downplaying / simply have forgotten the significance of how poor the team has performed as a cohesive over 24 months.
I think the distance between how disconcerted the performances are to then becoming a consistently performing outfit is only achievable with a change of manager. I cannot see the current coach changing this dynamic.
The narrative for Erik at present is built around the justification of results and he will only ever be a short-term solution under that very criteria. That's where the separation is between comparing Klopp, Guardiola or Arteta they have incrementally improved the composition of their team performances over a sustained period of time. Erik is now in a position where only results will determine his success and that's a shame because it certainly wasn't the consensus for him being hired.
Pretty much. Feels like people are simply saying he'll "get us back on track now that players will be fit" when I'm asking what sort of "track" is it really if we are still scraping results through xG luck and failing to assert dominance on teams on a somewhat consistent basis. Because if the plan is to just run it back with the same tactics from last season except we'll have a new holding mid and CB then I don't think anything performance wise will really change.
The scepticism is not down to whether things will get better or not (because I agree last season was an anomaly, and looks very likely to get better now) but because of ETH being very uninspiring manager with bad ideas and/or execution.
United fans either want the manager out OR hope he will just change completely next season, what is bizarre situation really.
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EtH is being backed for the long haul. He is not seen as the main reason for this bad season. The inconsistensies were there in the first season, and they were compounded in the second season by injuries and player discipline issues.
INEOS now knows what needs to be done and that it will take many years. They won‘t sack Ten Hag for a sixth place finish but they will be looking for improvement in a lot of areas.
INEOS now knows what needs to be done and that it will take many years. They won‘t sack Ten Hag for a sixth place finish but they will be looking for improvement in a lot of areas.
I wonder if the signing of RVN is a backup if it all goes tits up for TH? The fact he has been a manager and was looking for other manager positions and now he's accepting a backward step as a coach. Could this be a ploy where he has been told he will be next Utd manager?
I think it is a very interesting position for RvN. He did not want to be head coach at PSV, because he thought he wasn‘t quite ready for such a big step up.
I don‘t think he is being thought of the next MU manager, but rather as a good option with MU dna to add to the coaching staff.
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He'll be gone by Xmas, Then Ruud can take over as Interim.
"Give it to Ruud for the rest of the season" will be the most common refrain in this thread from about September onwards.
RVN or Southgate? Would be quite a talk if things don't go well next season.
southgate won't get anywhere near this club. They won't even let him in the parking lot.
That would be very silly of us. He barely has a season worth of PSV experience, a job he eventually quit too, he’s not in position to take over a big club. He could do as an interim for a few games but doubt that would have played a role in his decision, I believe he simply wants the job without any future considerations being factored in.
In best case scenario could realistically get us back to 22-23 level in the league but also mix it up with good EL performance and maybe another cup. This would be rather excellent outcome and would fully vindicate last season.
In a more realistic scenario we are aiming for 4th to 6th while still counting on good cup performance as he has proven himself there already. It would still prove that it was a good decision to keep him.
Alot hinges on the type of summer we have.
If we can reinforce with good players then I think we might put up some sort of title challenge assuming everyone improves and stays healthy. Big assumption of course.
In what way did the takeover negatively affect performances and results do you think?
You are generous with 4-6 place.
We will go deep in EL and our league position will suffer because of that. Dude doesn't know or just won't to rotate. We droped massively after Barca and Newcastle games in his first season. Players were tired beacuse of suicide tactics were players need to run like maniacs. And with EC and Copa America in this summer god help us with injuries.
Do you have to copy everything Dortmund does? They did the same with Terzic/Sahin
If im an ambitious footballer, I Will understand what it takes to get to the top of the sport. I’m probably not particularly excited about squeezing into the top 4 of the league. Footballers in general can be very fickle creatures and if a managers position is looking dodgy, they can mentally struggle to work for that manager. ETH position has looked dodgy since the club was put up for sale barely 5 months into his contract.
You have all this and then the biggest name player at the club goes and does an interview berating the manager. Another player is in a very public, horrible partner abuse scandal. Another big cost signing. Another player who was our top scorer seems to be going off the rails and starts going on the piss. The captain has to be stripped of the position cause he has his own issues with the police in Greece and is booed by his own fans. And another big name signing gets a season off to find themselves and isn’t arsed doing training right so ends up equalling Undermining manager.
United played as many games as pool the season before with a World Cup squeezed in uniteds season, pool struggle the next season, many say fatigue probably a huge issue. United don’t seem to have that luxury and people just say it’s the managers fault.
Sale of coin drags out for a year, unclear of direction of club, future of manager and what ambitions plans will be. As a player, particularly ones older like Varane and Casemiro, this couldn’t of been easy and it’s no coincidence Cas form fell off a cliff as he saw exactly what sort of ambitions he could really have at United.
Blooding in a new keeper any time for United has been shaky, but doing it in a season where you defence is decimated by injuries is even harder, no place to hide. Having no fit striker or striker alternative and no experienced striker to call on makes it difficult. Having to rely on 3 players all
Unproven in the EPL starting and having no rotational options.
lastly, you can see how badly United are at getting targets/signings , how they overpay and make last gasp signings (cause they are so poorly organised), which wouldn’t fill your boots with confidence that United will be standing at the top of the table at the end of the season.
That’s what I can think of the top of my head. Don’t recall pep or klopp or Arteta having all these things going on from the summer they took over but sure isn’t it easy to just talk about their results cause that tells you everything , right ?
How a club is run affects how a team plays. It really is that simple. Does it mean a manager can’t setup teams a certain way or can’t adapt? Of course not, but it means you can’t compare what’s happening at a well run club to what’s happening at United based on spending and results.
There is a culture of excellence and professionalism at those clubs. There is also a clear pedigree proven , moreso at Pool, city and Chelsea (under Roman) that gives players confidence that success is usually no more then two seasons away.
So yes, a player playing for Liverpool /city/ Madrid/barca / Bayern , knows that they are seldom gonna be more then a season away from
Some good stuff. Those clubs consistently find a way back to the to and it’s not just by replacing managers.
We’ve seen it a lot that quality players join United and we might get a few months of good stuff and then their form falls off a cliff. They see what we see, that they have joined a patchwork fawlty towers club that spends big but that masks gross negligence and dysfunction that is not at successful clubs. They also know they and whatever manager we have are on a hiding to nothing.
Take Jose , getting second and Woodward basically not helping him build on that. Some said “Woodward was right to only buy Fred/dalot”. Well how did the senior ambitious players feel ? That’s something a lot of you don’t really think about. Players can tell when they have a chance at success and when they’ve been hamstrung like Woodward did that summer.
So I feel everybody has been unsettled since ETH took over for multiple reasons. I also feel that this is part of what INEOs are trying to do is basically allow managers to manage/coach. Not have to get involved in transfers (and take flack for that), player dramas (club handles this better) and uncertainty about their role the whole time.
Liverpool won 1 title in over 20 y. Our fans love to moan about club like we are playing in Championship.
Most of this happened before last season or has little to do with the takeover.
I'm asking someone how they think a takeover happening mid-season, last season negatively affected results and performances.
I'm not saying it didn't I'm just interested to hear how that poster thought it did.
Most clubs have "new manager boost", but we apparently experienced "new owners petrification".
On another note, it always seemed like SJR was not very keen on ETH and that could've had some impact on the team/performances I'd imagine. But, one win turned the table apparently.
Another hilarious thing is if it wasn't for INEOS "taking time/reviewing the season", it's very likely ETH wouldn't be allowed to finish the season under the Glazers considering the results he had.
We're really in absolutely bizarre situation right now.
100% of this is excuses for not getting the results expected for a manager at Manchester United.
0% of this includes any arguments backing ETH has done a good job or explains why we should believe he's got the tools needed for the job.
The working conditions hasn't been great, but ETH did a really a horrible job last season, regardless of the working conditions. Do you really believe he got the most out of our squad under the valid conditions last season? Well, then our opinions stand very far apart.
Why not analyse ETH instead? What has he accomplished here and what have been the pres and cons with him so far? Why in the world should we believe he'll elevate us to levels above the other post Fergie managers based on his time here so far?
- I see a manager with little to no charisma
- I see massive regression in our general play
- I see non functioning tactics and bad ingame management
- I see little to no good relations and little interaction on the pitch
- I see lots of injuries
- I see a manager making bad big money transfers in
- I see that our attackers have collectively (- McTominay) become worse finishers since Ole left
- I see some cases of getting man management really wrong
- I see a team that just look toothless and vulnerable
- but most of all I don't see his vision/philosophy on the pitch.
Only positve for me is that injuries has forced him to play a couple of youngsters who really has flourished.
And I think to myself.....
What did you see when you watched us this season? Would be more interesting to read than what you just wrote...
What a bald fraúd
What's even funnier they gave him a way to portray them as incompetent and change the perception a bit - now it's about them and not the disastrous season he produced. I wish I had such PR skills.
There are valid excuses for last season and there are things ETH did wrong. The magnitude of the former category (mainly injuries) covers up big part of the second category.
Notice how nobody says what ETH should continue doing, all of the ETH supporters just talk about the point I made in the first paragraph.
Ten Hag is still here because all the alternatives collapsed, not because he won the cup, make no mistake about it. The fan base feels this, so the players will know this as well.
Start of the league campaign will be CRUCIAL. If it goes well, some belief in the manager (under new structure) will be restored. If it doesn't, things will collapse very quickly and he will be out soon. I don't think Ineos will take so much time to "asses" next season.
Do you have to copy everything Dortmund does? They did the same with Terzic/Sahin
34 years
The only way your point adds up is if the expectation for EtH joining us is that we wouldn’t make any signings the summer he joined. How can I judge EtH off a squad he never coached or played with.
Arteta and Klopp had to use what they had for their 6 and 9 months respectively. EtH was never in this position as he started by making big signings.
I will continue to laugh because Saka and Martinelli were 18 and 19 and were not in Arsenal’s strongest lineup then, Saka was actually playing LWB then. Saliba was on loan at Saint Etienne and Ozil was banished from the squad or injured after a handful of early games under Arteta.
Your Bruno and Rashford point point makes no sense, much like the rest of your post. My criticism of them is in terms of us winning the league or CL with them, I’ve not said they aren’t good players. They easily get into the Arsenal and Liverpool starting lineups I highlighted above which is what is relevant to the conversation rather than your strawman argument.
Again I provided you with trends which you seem to ignore. A team that finishes 5th 6th 5th (Arsenal prior to Arteta joining) in three seasons clearly has worse prospects than one that finished 3rd 2nd 6th (United before EtH). We had a shitshow of a year under Ole/Ralf but it was not representative of our true level.
If Arnie Slot has Liverpool challenging for the title from the off with his brand of football and we are still struggling...well you can see where this is going.
You'll have posters on here defending ETH by saying that Arnie Slot inherited a great side, whilst we go ahead and spend another £200m or more on players this summer.
I agree with a lot of what you're saying, I just take umbrage at the categorical writing off of our chances, and chances at improvement, with Erik at the helm. I'm not saying I'm confident that we will improve to the extent that he'll be worth keeping, it's just the hyperbole that annoys me. There is most definitely a future where we continue making many of the same mistakes as last season, and if so Erik has to go. It would be a shame if we don't get to see him trying to implement something akin to his systems at Ajax here, they were a very entertaining team to watch under him. I'm afraid that he won't try to do that now, given what happened when he tried to implement a different system last season. The amount of times you could see him shouting at the backline to stay higher in the pitch and them backing off more and more was frustrating. It was also frustrating that he only seemed to change tactically at the very end of the season, so it'll be interesting to see what sort of system we'll be going for come august.
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NIstelrooy a club appointment, whilst Erik gets his own appointment as a compromise?
Hard not to be buzzing for the return of Ruud!
Hard not to be buzzing for the return of Ruud!