The club better realise this.
Erik ten Hag | Currently unemployed
- Thread starter Panther
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He is hot commodity, 83-14 is high octane.
If the board does what you're saying, then we're in trouble. But I don't believe they will do that, and i'll explain my reasoning below.
Under LVG the board gave him total autonomy to not only sign players but also to gut the squad. Unfortunately for us, LVG made a bit of a mess when it comes to recruitment and got rid of players that were useful and replaced those he allowed to leave by signing players that in some cases were inferior to the ones he allowed to leave. Woodward was reported to have said that it was his biggest mistake to allow LVG to do what he did. And this is where the paranoia with handing out contract extension started IMO, after the board became disillusioned without Fergie's direction, and also without a football department that didn't exist to the modern standards.
Mourinho is brought in and he's given total autonomy for a period of time and his scatter gun approach to recruitment is brought to a halt by the newly formed transfer committee who veto Mourinho on multiple targets like Maguire, Alderweireld, Boateng, Yerry Mina, Willian etc. The club at that stage have lost total faith in Mourinho and his sacking is just a matter of time. The mistake the club made with Mourinho was that they allowed him to sign players on the back of the information provided by Mourinho's very own independent scouts according to Jason Burt of the Telegraph. But in 2018, when John Murtough had revamped/restructured the scouting departments which created roles for a additional 80 or so people, it gave 3 of the most influential figures from within the newly formed recruitment setup the power to sit on the transfer committee to challenge Mourinho on his transfer targets who he was selecting based on the input of his independent scouts.
Ole came in and surprisingly was allowed to sign players that had failed the recruitment process set by the recruitment staff from within the club. Solskjaer is also allowed to have his own personal scout (Simon Wells) and Mike Phelan sit on the transfer committee. So it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that we end up signing Maguire, when his former manager at Hull City, Mike Phelan who gave the player his big break in the EPL and made him captain at Hull, is a key player on the transfer committee. So we end up signing Maguire, when a year earlier, Daniel Taylor reported that Maguire wasn't deemed to be any better than the CBs already at the club by the club's recruitment team who vetoed the signing.
Neither Mourinho or Ole, embraced the recruitment department at the club. They were allowed the luxury of having their own personal recruitment staff by the board. And when you marginalise a recruitment department with up to 80 odd people and instead put your faith in a select few in the modern game, then failure is a very real possibility.
But I don't believe any player has been signed at the club due to commercial reasons, because i've never seen any credible report backing such a notion up. And even the Ronaldo signing came about because Solskjaer pushed for it according to The Athletic and the Times newspaper. The Times went on to say that Solskjaer ignored the advice of his coaching staff to push ahead with the Ronaldo signing, and he felt that Ronaldo's goals would make up for his off the ball deficiencies.
One these three isnt like the other.
One person can change a lot.
You can just look at Liverpool. Or Atletico for that matter.
They were in more dire situation than we are now. We have a far better squad than they did when Klopp/Simeone came in. They do not spend more money than United.
Once you have a clear identity, the recruitment becomes easier and clearer etc.
Very excited to see what lies in the future. Ten Hag is the man. He just needs 2-3 years to clear the squad, instill his philosophy and system.
I actually think we would be quite decent right away.
You can just look at Liverpool. Or Atletico for that matter.
They were in more dire situation than we are now. We have a far better squad than they did when Klopp/Simeone came in. They do not spend more money than United.
Once you have a clear identity, the recruitment becomes easier and clearer etc.
Very excited to see what lies in the future. Ten Hag is the man. He just needs 2-3 years to clear the squad, instill his philosophy and system.
I actually think we would be quite decent right away.
Dominated PSV in the big match too when it came down to it. It's a great team, just got done in the CL in classic Pep ball style by losing a 50/50 and 2nd ball in midfield which gave Benfica a set piece and their big CF bullied the tiny RCB Timber for the goal. Ten Hag has built a team susceptible to the same problems as a Pep team which is to say a fine team!
Another new day and glad someone else has hope for this club. I too am excited for what Ten Hag will do and really do think he will be like a new broom sweeping out the old rubbish.
I've come to the conclusion that Champions league next year would be more of a hindrance than a help to us at the minute, so maybe a blessing in disguise that RR is seeing some players true colours.
Things can change very quickly in football, let's hope our revival rebuild is coming soon with Ten Hag.
Ah I read your post as saying that ETH should be given the role of head coach whereas Klopp and Pep are managers.
I don't know ETHs strengths well enough to know what role he should play tbh.
Where they? LIverpool were just a year and a half on from nearly winning the league. We are comfortably not a top four side. Think people underestimate the work that needs doing.
https://medium.com/@georgelw/erik-ten-hag-d12d8f16f5b2. Very long and detailed article about ETH, pretty much every aspect about him covered with data..
I was thinking about just this earlier. BUT you look at the actual state of the Liverpool squad that Klopp inherited. They lost their two best players in Suarez and Sterling. Their defence was an absolute shambles as was their keeper.
Let’s compare their first 11 to ours. (I’m using their team from the europa league final)
Mignolet
Clyne - Lovren - Toure - Moreno
Milner-Can
Lallana - Firmino - Coutinho
Sturridge
Notable subs: Henderson, Skrtel, Benteke
De Gea
Dalot - Varane - Maguire - Shaw
Fred - McTominay
Elanga - Bruno - Sancho
Ronaldo
Notable subs:
Rashford, Pogba
If we follow a similar trajectory as Liverpool over the next few years then happy days. I don’t mind if we’re in the Europa League (apart from it impacting incoming signings). If the next manager gets a full pre-season and then has more games to hopefully integrate the youth into our first team squad. If we were in it, it would likely be the only cup we would be in with a chance of winning and that would be a very good way to start your managerial stint.
Klopp dismantled the squad he took over, that’s pretty much what we need but whether we will give the next manager the backing to get rid of players I’m not convinced. I feel like there’s a lot of players that will be kept on regardless and manager will have a tough time if he wants to dump likes of Mctominay, Maguire, Shaw or Rashford.
If we appoint ETH so many of these players won’t fit into his way of playing and loads aren’t good enough, he’ll need to rip it up and start again, if he’s not allowed to do that then there’s no point in him getting the job.
Seems like a lot of years have been wasted though… if it takes another 2-3 years with ten Hag that’s a long long time without challenging and winning proper trophies. If we’d of picked the correct manager to start with and backed him then we may be in a different situation right now. If ten Hag comes in and wins a trophy in the first season then it buys him more time to get the squad he needs and start challenging. Think because a lot of the fans and the board want Instant success there not going to give him the time he needs.
That's why I said not sure it's true or not.
I was conceding the point to you, take the win
Oooof 0-3 down as well. Good shout!
That's why I said not sure it's true or not.
I was conceding the point to you, take the win
It's not about winning, just pointing something out that's prevalent on this forum
At this point I'd take seeing an improvement in our game rather than a continued bland shambles. I think most fans gave Ole the benefit of the doubt for at least a season or two because we could see improvement, Ten Hag is much better qualified so I'm sure he'll be fine.
This is a great read. Thanks for sharing.
Two things stood out for me
His net spend at Ajax is -169m pounds. 510m difference between United net spend to Ajax net spend in the same period.
64% win record since becoming manager in 2012 (Go Ahead Eagles, Bayern II and FC Utrecht counting half of those games). At Ajax it is 74%. This puts in top league of managers
Shows he can rebuild quickly and has a great win record even with average teams.
So many people here in this thread are so sure he’s coming. I just can’t let myself fall into that bear-trap of disappointment when somebody other than ten Hag stands beneath the scarf on the OT pitch.
Not great sources. Just going to be a holding pattern for a while.
You can tell I really haven’t seen much of Ajax this season. The stats you say make me a lot more exited then. PSG must be having a fantastic season to even partially keep pace with a side that has won that many games.
I do like what Poch has done at PSG too though. The three stars on the field for them both hinder and help that team in equal measure so he’s found a decent balance overall.
I was just going to say that. They nearly won the league before Klopp. And he was an appointment that built on the previous regime rather than being a shift. We haven't challenged let alone come close to winning in 9 years. People love putting it all on individuals and of course hiring a quality manager can change a lot. But we have have be fair to Liverpools owners too - they have been getting a lot right. With Rodgers they played fantastic football before things went wrong and under Klopp their transfer committee has worked wonders (while Klopp has coached excellently too of course). I think as much as they are happy / lucky to have him, Klopp has also picked well as Liverpool are very well run.
I just hope our fans give ten Hag time. We are effectively starting from scratch after years of ineptitude and carelessness. I wouldn’t expect a top 4 finish next season. Maybe the one after that.
Also…hopefully the board realise that we don’t need big name players. Just the right ones.
Also…hopefully the board realise that we don’t need big name players. Just the right ones.
Man fans on here thinks we are spurs or Arsenal or something. If we don't get top four next season, that should immediately sack our manager. There is no excuse that we don't get top four, especially with the squad we have. Even Ole had us dreaming of a title challenge earlier this season. No way, standards has dropped so low in such a short amount of timeAgreed… top 4 is bare minimum that we must achieve. That will at least keep the manager and gives him more time to develop the squad. The year after that should be a proper title challenge. Getting top 4 next season will be an improvement on this season anyway as we’re looking unlikely to miss top 4 this year. When the new manager comes in it’s all about improving all the time and progressing.
Looking at the data, we are now the new Arsenal
I'd still expect a top 4 finish. We have the quality and resources. However I wouldn't say it's the be all and end all. If the football is developing well the manager can stay even if he finishes outside the top 4. I would that this combination is a rarity given how poor the 4th placed team tends to be.
People have forgotten they had Rickie Lambert and Borini in attack.
If Pogba leaves and we remove some of our other deadwood, we'd be potentially bedding in new players into the squad. I feel it will take a couple of transfer windows to be comfortably 4th. United is too far gone for a quick resurgence even for top 4. I hope I'm wrong.
I don't know if we are as stacked in talent as we think we are. Top 4 next season would be the best yardstick to judge success for the new manager. I agree... I feel we should give ten Hag at least 2 seasons rather than give him the sack at the end of next season if we finish in 5th or 6th for example.
I wouldn't praise the Liverpool board for their change in fortunes from what I've read from the Liverpool media.
Liverpool when hiring Rodgers made a move for a young unproven coach at the highest level at the time who understood the requirements for the modern game. And Rodgers was ahead of the competition when it comes to implementing a coordinated pressing game. And that gave Liverpool a advantage against the competition and they almost beat out City under their head coach Pellegrini. But FSG hired Kenny Dalglish before they arrived at the Rodgers juncture. And even though Rodgers almost won the league it highlighted a flaw in the system at Liverpool which we at United are also suffering from imo.
And the flaw at Liverpool was that they had a large recruitment team already at the club but Rodgers didn't want to work under them or was reluctant to work with them according to reports. He made it clear to the Liverpool board that he didn't want to work under a Sporting director type setup and would like his own recruitment staff. The Liverpool board agreed to his demands and he almost won the league, but the key players in that Liverpool team were already at the club before Rodgers' arrival. You can credit him for Coutinho and Strurridge, but the amount of waste he bought can be viewed via the below link. The Liverpool fans and media blamed their scouts and Michael Edwards for the amount of poor signings at the time. Michael Edwards was a running joke among Liverpool fans at the time of Rodgers' sacking.
https://www.lfchistory.net/Transfers/ByManager/25/1
In steps Jurgen Klopp and the Liverpool board again give Klopp total control of the football side of the club according to the Liverpool press/media. But Klopp appoints Michael Edwards as the de facto Sporting director because he understands that it's in his best interests to be the the first team trainer/head coach and allow the recruitment team led by Edwards to create conditions for him to succeed. So Klopp gave the recruitment team the guiding principle/template to follow, when scouting players. And that created a streamlined approach to recruitment, where everyone at the club was working towards the same goal which was to recruit players for a particular way of playing the game. The much maligned Liverpool recruitment department that had become a laughing stock prior to Klopp's arrival were now the envy of it's rivals. And did Klopp select the Sporting director from outside of the club? The answer to that is obviously no.
Michael Edwards came to Liverpool to work as a analyst under Sporting director, Damien Comolli in 2011. He was part of a failed team because Comolli was sacked but Edwards was kept on. You can imagine the melt down if we hired a Sporting director after he was part of a failed DoF team and then was criticised for being part of the transfer committee that apparently failed Rodgers. But the difference is that with Rodgers he didn't want to work with Liverpool's recruitment department but Klopp came in and embraced the recruitment team at the club and they started singing from the same hymn sheet, and everything else is history.
Did Ole and Mourinho do what Klopp did or what Rodgers did? It's clear they did what Rodgers did and the United board allowed them to have their personal recruitment staff, which was the same at Liverpool who allowed Rodgers to have his own personal recruitment team. If you have a team of 50 plus people dedicated to recruitment and you then appoint a manager who doesn't want to work with said recruitment department, then you deserve failure. But there's a easy way to navigate around that, and that is for the board to allow the recruitment department to select the head coach and interview the potential candidate. And it looks like we're doing that now.
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Top post, as always.
Only City and Liverpool are actually very good, Chelsea have had many hiccups and are easily 3rd, the rest if you look at their season entirely have been very average and inconsistent, with the shit season we have had top four should be totally out of sight but it isn't, we should be at least favourite for fourth next season, considering our current group and the fact we'll most likely out spend all our competitors (Tottenham, Arsenal, West Ham, Leicester city).
Red flag if we don't achieve top four next season.
So just this forum?
Good post, there’s history if we choose to learn from it.
I'm certain ETH's current Ajax team would beat us this season in a heartbeat.
So did Watford, not sure I'd want Ranieri (was that him at the time?) as coach, though
The stats would end up like below... most probably
| Ajax | Manchester United | |
|---|---|---|
| 69.4 | Possession % | 30.6 |
| 12 | Shots on target | 1 |
| 24 | Shots | 5 |
| 928 | Touches | 488 |
| 754 | Passes | 331 |
| 13 | Tackles | 16 |
| 8 | Clearances | 20 |
| 9 | Corners | 3 |
| 0 | Offsides | 1 |
| 0 | Yellow cards | 1 |
| 10 | Fouls conceded | 16 |