For NLunited and VP89 aka Kees Vos, anything and everything is spin material.
We apparently had a fantastic defensive season. Not to mention a trophy, so we were probably the second best team in England according to this lot.
Erik ten Hag | 2024/25
- Thread starter Cheimoon
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We apparently had a fantastic defensive season. Not to mention a trophy, so we were probably the second best team in England according to this lot.
Everton very much an outlier last season. 19th for goals scored. 4th for goals conceded.
Didn't take long for me to find this incorrect. We conceded 10 shots vs Fulham (though a couple were hilariously speculative).
We've definitely improved this season, but we were abject last season. It was almost impossible to be worse.
Let's see how we do over the next few weeks. Still think ETH's ceiling is capped as a top 4 level manager and we need better.
Let's see how we do over the next few weeks. Still think ETH's ceiling is capped as a top 4 level manager and we need better.
We've been giving managers way too long to be settings things right, there hasn't been one manager that has been at the club since SAF retired, that would have got as much time if they were at any of the top clubs in Europe.
We sit around and hope something gels. This manager has a huge ego problem without any evidence to back it up. He seems to be buying players he has managed and what happens when they are all gone? Do we go full circle and sign Sancho back in 3 years time or buy Kimbwala?
A lot of goals compared to what? We conceded less than four teams above us. That‘s a hard fact.
Given the injuries in our defensive line, its hardly surprising we conceded more isn‘t it?
I missed that, thanks. We conceded less than Spurs and Villa.
Agree. That's a tricky away game and we often struggle vs Palace, but also the one team as good as United should be winning. So no excuses for him.
I felt the same, so went through and looked at both Ole and ETH's cup runs. It's actually closer than I thought, but Ole did have the harder runs.
In the domestic cups they both faced mostly PL teams (15 out of 22 ties for Ole, 13 out of 19 ties for ETH). I'd say the opposition strength was about the same, but Ole was mostly away against his PL opponents (5 home and 9 away) while ETH has only played one away tie (7 home and 1 away). There were also some matches at Wembley or two-legged ties, in case you were wondering why the numbers don't add up correctly.
Likewise in Europe it's closer than I expected, but overall Ole did have stronger opposition.
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We definitely have had favorable draws under ETH. Finals against City aren’t really draws as you play the only team that’s there. Our path to 2023 League Cup final was historically easy, both European groups were very easy too (that of course did not prevent us from getting spanked by two mediocre sides in CL).
Because he's added it up wrong.
Probably makes more sense to look at shots on target, but even then that wouldn't really mean much. Expected big chances created against us is probably a better metric. Last season we had the 5th worst XG against us in the league, this season we have the 11th worst so far. Still early days but an improvement, although I would be looking for the metric to improve rather than stay the same or get worse.
What's more important so far is that we are third in the league for chances created and 1st for big chances missed. If we improve the XG against a bit more, keep up the chances created and start taking more of them we will be in a good spot this season. Still early though.
I said in this or another thread that Ole routinely bottled it in winnable cup games/situations.
In 20/21 alone:
Need one point from last two CL group games (loses both). There was also the awful performance in Istanbul before that.
League Cup Semi final against a city side that he was almost routinely beating at times (loses 2-0)
FA Cup quarter final against Leicester (loses 3-1)
Loses Europa League against Villareal.
For all Ten Hag's faults, he has got over hurdles to have some success.
Beating Villa, Forest and Newcastle to win the League Cup in 22/23 clearly wouldn't have been a guarantee under Ole even in similar circumstances (again, as proven by the lack of trophies in 20/21).
Likewise, beating Liverpool and city to win the Fa Cup whilst under an insane amount of pressure with an underperforming side is a massive plus for Ten Hag and again something Ole wasn't able to do (going back to losing in the Champions League and FA Cup against Barca and Wolves in 2019.)
I'd love to see in matches away vs Top 8, the following:
Onana
Mazraoui
De Ligt
Martinez
Shaw
Ugarte
Mainoo
Casemiro or Eriksen
Fernandes
Amad
Hojlund or Zirkzee
We can't keep playing 4231 with wingers.
Onana
Mazraoui
De Ligt
Martinez
Shaw
Ugarte
Mainoo
Casemiro or Eriksen
Fernandes
Amad
Hojlund or Zirkzee
We can't keep playing 4231 with wingers.
He certainly didn't get us over the hurdle of a relatively easy champions league group
No he didn't but neither did Ole even when he only needed 1 point from 2 games.
Ultimately, Ten Hag has got us over the line on occasions to win a couple of trophies. Ole never managed that even when we had realistic opportunities to do so.
Some stats are highly dubious, such as "shots". The eye test is a better guide in some cases than the official stats.
As for a snap judgment on ten Hag so far, we clearly weren't ready for the season when we faced Fulham. And we clearly were on the back foot against Southampton for the first 30 minutes, but after the Onana pk save we started to come together and deserved the win that we eventually got after a very nervy first 30 minutes.
No one is getting sacked over the next month so let's take it one game at a time and hope that what we can build on what we saw after the 30th minute against Southampton.
As for a snap judgment on ten Hag so far, we clearly weren't ready for the season when we faced Fulham. And we clearly were on the back foot against Southampton for the first 30 minutes, but after the Onana pk save we started to come together and deserved the win that we eventually got after a very nervy first 30 minutes.
No one is getting sacked over the next month so let's take it one game at a time and hope that what we can build on what we saw after the 30th minute against Southampton.
Daniel Levy might have something to say about that
So what you're saying is, Onana transformed our attack?
Makes you wonder if some actually follow united or follow the manager and are here to support him to the hilt no matter what evidence backs the assertions that we're going nowhere fast under Ten Hag.
How can one claim to be a true united supporter and make such a clueless affirmation about our goals conceded in our worst season on record in the PL? It beggars belief
Well yes, other clubs may be preparing their burlap bags at this very moment.
If there are any Spurs fans here, would you take Pochettino back?
Marginal improvement but doesn't really merit any praise when the shots conceded are still in the double figures for 3 of the 4 opening matches.
And the only one that isn't is against a newly promoted team.
I would not say that. The De Ligt goal came off a corner kick. I'd have count the number of passes that led to the other two goals after Onana last touched the ball, but it was surely more than a few.
Making a great save especially a pk, however, can have a transformative impact on the psychology of a game. But Onana's passing, while quite solid agains Southampton, had virtually nothing to do with our poor play in the first 30 minutes or our improved play in the following 60+ minutes.
I'm not going to join the pile on because many stoop to that level when they don't agree with me. But sometimes I can't work out whether some posters are just on a wind up or genuinely believe the stuff they come out with.
For whatever it's worth, we had pretty much the same number of shots conceded vs Fulham as Arsenal did against Wolves.
Yeah ole made some big mistakes in europa final too. Guess ten hag also led us to our worst league finish. Neither is good enough for us ultimately
Stolen from Reddit, based on the 4 premier league games:
Shots conceded - 6th least
Tackles - 1st
Interceptions - 1st
Shots on Target - 4th
XG - 3rd
Big Chances Created - 3rd
Big Chances Missed - 1st
Passes - 6th
Saves - 1st (Onana made 4th most saves last season, he’s had to make the fewest this season)
Clean sheets - 3rd
Possession won in Final 3rd - 4th
Shots conceded - 6th least
Tackles - 1st
Interceptions - 1st
Shots on Target - 4th
XG - 3rd
Big Chances Created - 3rd
Big Chances Missed - 1st
Passes - 6th
Saves - 1st (Onana made 4th most saves last season, he’s had to make the fewest this season)
Clean sheets - 3rd
Possession won in Final 3rd - 4th
I'm not necessarily saying the manager needs time, it's more a general point about the media and fans. Criticising new players after they've been at the club 5 minutes when there's been a lot of changes is a relatively new thing I think, it's hardly mentioned the settling in factor it seems. Except for Liverpool of course who have precisely zero new signings.
In your opinion should it be Ugarte and Mainoo or Ugarte and Eriksen? Either way its good to have an extra quality option in the middle of the park.
| Rk | Squad | MP | W | D | L | GF | GA | GD | Pts | Pts/MP | xG | xGA |
| 1 | Manchester City | 4 | 4 | 0 | 0 | 11 | 3 | 8 | 12 | 3 | 9.2 | 2.9 |
| 10 | Manchester Utd | 4 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 5 | 5 | 0 | 6 | 1.5 | 7.9 | 5.4 |
| 4 | Liverpool | 4 | 3 | 0 | 1 | 7 | 1 | 6 | 9 | 2.25 | 7.8 | 2.8 |
| 11 | Bournemouth | 4 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 5 | 5 | 0 | 5 | 1.25 | 7.6 | 5.5 |
| 6 | Brighton | 4 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 6 | 2 | 4 | 8 | 2 | 6.9 | 4.4 |
| 5 | Aston Villa | 4 | 3 | 0 | 1 | 7 | 6 | 1 | 9 | 2.25 | 6.7 | 4.5 |
| 9 | Brentford | 4 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 6 | 6 | 0 | 6 | 1.5 | 5.9 | 7.3 |
| 8 | Chelsea | 4 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 8 | 5 | 3 | 7 | 1.75 | 5.7 | 5 |
| 13 | Tottenham | 4 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 6 | 4 | 2 | 4 | 1 | 5.6 | 4.5 |
| 16 | Crystal Palace | 4 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 4 | 7 | -3 | 2 | 0.5 | 5.6 | 6.5 |
| 3 | Newcastle Utd | 4 | 3 | 1 | 0 | 6 | 3 | 3 | 10 | 2.5 | 5.2 | 6.2 |
| 14 | West Ham | 4 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 5 | 6 | -1 | 4 | 1 | 5.1 | 7.8 |
| 2 | Arsenal | 4 | 3 | 1 | 0 | 6 | 1 | 5 | 10 | 2.5 | 5 | 4.2 |
| 7 | Nott'ham Forest | 4 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 4 | 2 | 2 | 8 | 2 | 5 | 3 |
| 12 | Fulham | 4 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 4 | 4 | 0 | 5 | 1.25 | 4.6 | 4.2 |
| 19 | Southampton | 4 | 0 | 0 | 4 | 1 | 8 | -7 | 0 | 0 | 4.5 | 7.9 |
| 18 | Wolves | 4 | 0 | 1 | 3 | 4 | 11 | -7 | 1 | 0.25 | 4.1 | 5.4 |
| 20 | Everton | 4 | 0 | 0 | 4 | 4 | 13 | -9 | 0 | 0 | 4.1 | 8.3 |
| 15 | Leicester City | 4 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 5 | 7 | -2 | 2 | 0.5 | 3.3 | 6.8 |
| 17 | Ipswich Town | 4 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 7 | -5 | 2 | 0.5 | 1.5 | 8.5 |
Brief update on this post from earlier. We’re continuing to create good chances compared to last season(although it's very hard not to considering the clusterfeck of a season we had previously), which aligns with what I’m seeing on the pitch. But, individual mistakes still contribute significantly to our high xGAgainst. For example, Maguire’s non-clearance against Brighton is now aided by Dalot’s penalty against Southampton which together account for about 1.6 of our xGA. While the goals conceded against Liverpool were also due to individual errors in midfield, these chances didn’t have as high an xG and could have been managed better by both our defence and goalkeeper.
Our upcoming fixtures will present a greater challenge than Southampton, so it will be interesting to see if it falls off. With De Ligt and Ugarte settling into the squad and Shaw still to come, we should hopefully see improvements defensively. It’s also encouraging to see goals from Rashford and Garnacho; we need contributions from all our attacking players, as I mentioned earlier. Hopefully this gives them enough confidence to go on a scoring run now; especially Rashford.
However, I’m concerned about Bruno. Against Southampton, he took wayward shots from outside the box and held onto the ball for too long to the point where he got into nervy situations on a couple of occasions. This doesn’t seem to be a result of tactical instructions either, as other players managed the ball well without getting themselves into trouble from what I can remember.
The problem with your relative comparison is that last season's defensive numbers in the PL were abnormally bad. The top 10 sides of the PL averaged 54.1 goals conceded, which is almost 11 goals higher than the average for the previous 5 seasons (43.4 ± 1.5). So if you only compare United to last season's teams it will paint a rosier picture than it should.
58 goals is 1.5 goals per game. That is, in absolute terms, a lot of goals.
Two types of posters here: one with a positive outlook and one moaner.
Like Rashford, he is back!!!!
It is what it is, more teams are playing attacking football and press etc. with better players leading to more goals.
Less teams sitting back = more goals.
You can see we didn‘t concede more than teams in 4th-7th place, which undercuts the argument that we conceded a catastrophic amount of goals.
Especially considering we had terrible injuries to the backline it is not that bad.
We had a terrible season, but the amount of goals conceded is not why.
This is a nonsense argument.
Our performance last season was only ever relative to the performance of other teams last season.
Too small a sample size for this season. Let's put our handbags away for now.