Who is saying this?
Erik ten Hag | 2024/25 | Sacked
- Thread starter Cheimoon
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What kind of punishment though?
Should the same kind of punishment be administered to the club managements that are below Utd in the league?
What I’d give to be a fly on the wall on these meetings.
I’m pretty sure we will be closer to relegation than top in November. We are 10 points from the top and only 5 above relegation now, so there’s already a pretty sizeable gap. Even if we were to get 10 points in the next 5, I am not sure this would do it as we’d probably still be 10+ from the top, so we would have to count on the 18th placed team to be on less than 7 which is very unlikely.
We were 31 points off top and 34 points above relegation last year but Luton got relegated with 26 points at 18th spot which is abnormal. It’s typically more than 30 points and closer to 35 to stay up, and 90+ to win the league.
I wouldn’t really have ‘points above 16th place’ as a metric and still find it super weird that you pay so much attention to if. It’s not much more relevant than points over 12th and points above/below 9th placed team after the same game week in 1994. I’ve literally never heard ‘points above 16th place’ being used to measure performance, it’s not even a relegation zone or anything, it’s just a random spot in the table.
Btw Ole was obviously not 23 off top after 12 games, having won 17 points. That’s not even mathematically possible.
The first sentence? NLUnited. The rest is heavy sarcasm.
I mean how do you watch us play in any game in the last year and think 'yeah these tactics are superb. It's the players who are not doing the tactics justice'.... 
At this point I dont think ETH understands concepts like press triggers or rest defence. Or even what the word compact means, because we've never been it at any point in the last 2 years.
At this point I dont think ETH understands concepts like press triggers or rest defence. Or even what the word compact means, because we've never been it at any point in the last 2 years.
When you look at our roster, it would be perfect for Tuchel's 343 system with which he played with Celski.
Onana/Kepa
DC right- Yoro/Aspi
DC- De Ligt/Silva
DC left- Lisandro or Maguire/Rudiger
RB- Dalot/James
LB- Shaw/Chilwell
DMC - Casemiro/Kante
DMC - Mainoo/Jorginho
AMC- Bruno/Pulisic
AMC- Mount/Mount
ST - Zirkzee/Havertz
That is a team who would dominate with possession and be very compact in defensive phase. Sure, that team wouldn't play in a way what lots of United fans want (direct and quick through the wings) but having a control in games would be refreshing.
Onana/Kepa
DC right- Yoro/Aspi
DC- De Ligt/Silva
DC left- Lisandro or Maguire/Rudiger
RB- Dalot/James
LB- Shaw/Chilwell
DMC - Casemiro/Kante
DMC - Mainoo/Jorginho
AMC- Bruno/Pulisic
AMC- Mount/Mount
ST - Zirkzee/Havertz
That is a team who would dominate with possession and be very compact in defensive phase. Sure, that team wouldn't play in a way what lots of United fans want (direct and quick through the wings) but having a control in games would be refreshing.
If you step back from it all and just look at the very basics, forget the politics and layers of arguments either way and think of this with a clear mind.
Manchester United:
One of the biggest clubs in the world.
One of the biggest budgets in the world.
One of the most successful clubs in the world.
One of the biggest fan bases in the world.
Then ask yourself if the results, league position and current situation, reflect all of the above.
Just the basics, nothing more.
Manchester United:
One of the biggest clubs in the world.
One of the biggest budgets in the world.
One of the most successful clubs in the world.
One of the biggest fan bases in the world.
Then ask yourself if the results, league position and current situation, reflect all of the above.
Just the basics, nothing more.
I mean how do you watch us play in any game in the last year and think 'yeah these tactics are superb. It's the players who are not doing the tactics justice'....
At this point I dont think ETH even understands concepts like press triggers or rest defence. Or even what the word compact means because we've never been it in 2 years.
We all know that the tactics are senseless, at least anyone that understand geometry and physics.
He said yet, and that's probably a subtle but key point. Players are bedding in and won't hit the standards straight away looks like his point. I'm not saying I fully agree but it's not an outrageous take or without merit.
It is indeed a key point when after 28 months in the job the manager is yet to make his tactics and instructions workable, I don't know if the issue is the players.
I think the argument is that with a squad overhaul you need time for players to gel.
The other side though is that we’ve only really signed 4 players, one of whom has barely played so far and two have played together for years which should at least be slightly helpful.
That's only relevant if you actually overhauled the squad. In reality ETH has been coaching the core of this team for pretty much two years. The talks about time are total BS, things could improve in the future but it won't be because time did its work but because ETH pulled his head from his own backside.
I get what your expectation is, but you asked whether I'd sack Ole from say 10points out of 15 and my answer is that he'd be a lot closer to the top than the bottom in that regard, and in much better form so its a no.
Last season was atrocious but rightly or wrongly he's been given a go into this season which is why I'd prefer to keep our framing to the campaign we're in as it stands.
My "points above 16th" wasn't a metric. It just an illustration to show how bad and unsalvageable the season was in Mid-November. My apologies on the points behind Liverpool stat, that was looking at a big 6 mini league not in the campaign in question. We were something like 12 points from top, 8 points off top 4 and 5 points away from relegation or 16th.
If Ten Hag got to that level in mid november he should be of course sacked all the same.
I mean he's brought in a new RB, CB, CM and Striker whilst a current RB is undertaking a role at LB which needs some familiarisation. That's going to take some time to bed in surely?
I think we were broken against Liverpool and Spurs - totally. But can I ask which other games you thought there was a very clear tactical problem?
That's the thing. There is no plan, no method and logically no palpable improvements. Beyond the tactical issues, there is no overarching logic in the way ETH has led the squad, his decisions seem to fit two categories kneejerk reactions or apathy.
The majority of United fans don't seem to actually know anything about football. They wanted him to stay on because we scumbagged a cup.
We should have moved to a dominant style of football a long time ago.
Classic confirmation bias. You’re searching for data to fit a deluded conclusion that is predetermined.
It’s just confirmation bias mate.
I genuinely think he’s trying to fix things. In his mind, everything he is doing is logical. He’s just incompetent. You are starting to see frustration with Ruud.
How is it confirmation bias and what do you think my conclusion is?
What was so wrong about the Twente game tactically speaking? We had almost 60% possession and only surrendered 7 shots on our goal. The goal from them came from 2 individual errors by Maguire and then Eriksen which I do not find to be tactical.
Palace second half was really a tactical problem? What was it exactly? Fulham I recall, they broke on us twice, so I see where you are coming from there.
We have seen League 1 teams better organised than us. Out stats last season suggested we had some of the best defenders in the league that prevented us from finishing lower table. This season our defensive performance stats are closer to average, and we concede as many as our performance deserves.
There are valid reasons to consider underperformance unconnected to a manager, but a lack of very basic organisation, as well as clear and obvious deficiencies in the tactical setup not being addressed, suggest that things would improve under a different manager. The players might not be good enough, or need time to settle, but that should not have a significant impact on organisation and tactical setup.
I suspect it is Ten Hag who is the problem, specifically how he communicates with the team and projects his ideology.
My theory is the club were aware of this to some degree, along with his lack of man management skills, which is why they brought in Steve McClaren in addition to MvG in the first instance. This season they’ve gone with Rene Hake and RvN. It seems a theme that he needs more than just an assistant, or at least the club feels he does.
I don’t think the players are blameless in all of this however I do think Ten Hag isn’t getting through to them fully, and also likely not getting their buy in to what he wants, due to how he is as a person. All the top managers have that charismatic side which is important to bring everyone on board with what you’re telling them to do. Ten Hag always appears somewhat impersonal to me and lacking in emotion and awareness. This is likely also why he’s so frustrated as he can’t understand why his ideas aren’t coming to fruition consistently and I’m sure he’ll blame this on the players and appear more abrasive and arrogant.
Despite what you read on here I do think Ten Hag has shown the ability to be tactically smart against the best and has had good results in one off games sporadically. Some of these games the players were likely highly motivated themselves, like the FA Cup final for instance, so the other aspects came together. Sadly in a league setting where you need to perform over a longer piece, and in terms of a project where you want to achieve buy in over a longer period to develop and implement something more permanent, we are never going to get there under Ten Hag in my opinion due to his shortcomings in those areas.
Everyones favourite journalist Sam Luckhurst is saying that Ten Hag expects to be in charge next week
Great. So 2 draws saves him again. Whilst we’re closer to relegation and closer to getting knocked out of Europa.
The players may need time to bed in but the overall tactics shouldn't be affected, he should be able to have the 20 other players operate at a good enough level otherwise why are we even optimistic for the 4 players that you mentioned, none of them are certified world beaters.
And that's being generous because managers integrate new players every years, in fact any manager that isn't at the helm of one of the wealthiest lose a key player every summer and has to integrate his replacement quickly while maintaining a similar level of performances. What you are suggesting for ETH wouldn't be accepted for most midtable clubs because they can't afford it, they can't afford that kind of nonsense.
Not really, a lot of us who are complaining in here wanted him out most of last season and remained that way after the FA Cup win.
The vast majority were pro ten hag
These X posts are written by people who must not have worked a day in their life. Somehow their sources know but the main man in charge doesn't? Get real. He will know what his objectives are to avoid being let go.
The tactics are tweaked to last year and its a new coaching staff with the new signings, so I certainly expect there to be a bedding in period. What I do also expect however is a much better return from the 7 games in spite of that.
Your conclusion is that Ten Hag is a good manager. Saying we’re only 7 games in is inaccurate. We’re 125 games in. You’re searching for data to support a conclusion, not looking at data to make a conclusion. That’s the difference mate.
No, it's a minority that were pro Ten Hag and changed their mind. And they aren't really posting much in this thread.
I am disappointed in INEOS tbh but having seen how they got Nice meandering around midtable I guess we were too optimistic to expect any better. I don't think the decision to sack the manager should be made by committee or through votes, that's just pushing the bucket.
We have people within the INEOS team who, having kept an inept manager against best industry practice, now know that admitting to this mistake so early will weaken their influence. Sir Jim should have taken note of who pushed the hardest to keep ETH in the summer and sidelined them on this call.
This should be a Dan Ashworth recommendation and then the senior Executive team, the co-owners, make the final call. This dilly dallying while we sink deeper into mediocrity will only hurt us because potential candidates won't wait for us to get our act together they will move on whilst they dither.
Some people wanted to see how he fares after a very good first season and a very bad second season. I don't think there is much harm in that. If a lot of these posters have seen enough after the first 7-10 games then fair play.
However well people think we played til the league cup in his first season (I don’t think we were that good), doesn’t justify whatever faith some seem to have on him.
“Back” poll option creeping up. Crazy stuff
“Back” poll option creeping up. Crazy stuff
I'm aware, but most of those who switched their votes aren't the loudest voices in this thread
I have not concluded this. There's a flaw with your insinuation of confirmation bias and conclusions when you've not bothered to read the analysis and parameters prior.
There's a lot of people talking about the poll. Why does it bother you so much?
That's a very naive
A- considering that ETH had just 1 year left in his contract then keeping him meant having to activate his one year contract. Surely the club couldn't afford having the manager focused on finding his next job. That meant that getting rid of him meant spending 17m
B- top managers tend not to leave their his club mid through the season. Even the likes of Tuchel (free transfer) would only consider the job but only on his terms.
Last season it was a train wreck. We had drama on an almost weekly basis, injuries kept piling in (and the rumors were that it was down to ETH's training regime) and football was painful to watch. We ended 8th with a negative goal difference. Yet all was forgiven and the manager was given 200m to spend + new coaches (which...surprise surprise, he brought half of the Eredivisie/Ajax) with him based on.....1 game.
Yes they are tweaked, not revolutionized tactics, players and coaches are used to tactical tweaks several times during the same season depending on context. I'm genuinely baffled, it's as if you are ignoring how Football, coaching and playing it has worked for nearly a century. 4 new players is nothing and tactical tweaks that are implemented during preseason don't require months to be applied in games, tactical tweaks that are introduced during the season don't even require weeks to be implemented, managers routinely work on various tactical approaches all year long. ETH isn't experiencing anything different to 100% of other coaches in all leagues, he is just among the ones that are making a mess out of it for not apparent reason.
I'm not going to beat around the bush, the arguments that you give are terrible for ETH, they point to extreme incompetence and I genuinely hope that it's not the case.
I was only pointing out we were actually closer to the top 4 than we were the relegation places when Ole got sacked. After that Watford defeat I believe we were 8-9 points above the relegation zone.
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