Erik ten Hag | 2024/25 | Sacked

[Zumbi]

Yes, exactly, last season even 8th flattered us.

xG and other metrics don't perfectly correlate with league positions, because even a 38-game league season leaves some room for variance.

Also, good xG probably won't save ten Hag long-term, if the results are similar to last season, but a good xPts tally that the players massively underperform on the pitch probably would save him IMO.

Regarding the 7-0, it's not deflecting responsibility. It's highlighting that dismissing context, underlying statistics and just focusing on results will never get you anywhere.

And that’s my point really. Ultimately the buck stops with the manager, and three seasons in he absolutely has to start turning potential and xg etc into actual goals and wins and points or he’s failed and he’ll be out. Given the strength of the opposition in the league, I am very sceptical he can do it consistently, despite our improved performances so far this season. And his poor in game management is one of the main reasons for my scepticism.

Regarding the 7-0, the most important context for me is that it was not an anomalous result. We’ve suffered a bunch of absolute pastings against a variety of teams under Ten Hag. He has to shoulder some responsibility for that. Results over time show patterns, and those patterns are important.

 

[Leethal]

Nonsense. Lots of posters have made very detailed and specific criticisms of his in game management yesterday, and how his subs negatively affected our second half performance when the match was there for the taking.

All you’ve done is come on here and throw around insults at anyone critiquing Ten Hag. And you have the audacity to call people immature?

Ah yes, the tactical nous of the redcafe.

Apologies for giving no credence to the drivel I see spouted here that is touted as “analysis”. Or the isolated, non contextualised, subjective stats banded around; that’s used to support baseless arguments.

For the record, it’s not a defence of ten hag. I wanted him gone, too. I still do. But the reality is, he was given an opportunity with a new structure by people much smarter and well versed in the running of club football than the denizens of this shit-hole. I’m more than happy to criticise where it’s just - but on the back of yesterday’s performance? Just because we didn’t win? That’s pathetic.

Also, yes, I have the audacity. A spade’s a spade, and all that jazz.

 

[Judas]

I cannot remember that last time that Erik made a substitutions that change that course of the game. Erik's substitutions so far has not been trying to change the outcome of the game. He replaced players who are tired, carrying some injury or having a yellow card. He should have play Rashford and replace Rashford with Garnacho when he needed a result. With defenders tired, it is the best time to unleash Garnacho. Eriksen should have come on to provide more creativity. There are so many evidence to prove Erik is a poor manager and he is still sticking around. If he loses the next 2 EPL games, please get him out of this club.

Eriksen starting the game was the right choice, as clearly shown by our first half display, the issue is having no one who can replace him efficiently.

 

[Malone_Post]

Comical how shit ETH is allowed to have us doing

And we have people defending this

It’s both comical & tragic how low standards have fallen at this club. Celebrating a 0-0 against a winless Palace side cos we played quite well in the first half. Honestly it feels like we’re in an episode of black mirror at this point. We’ve gone through the looking glass.

 

[Leethal]

And we have people defending this

It’s both comical & tragic how low standards have fallen at this club. Celebrating a 0-0 against a winless Palace side cos we played quite well in the first half. Honestly it feels like we’re in an episode of black mirror at this point. We’ve gone through the looking glass.

Nobodies celebrating the 0-0. Don’t make shit up to drive your narrative. People are saying that’s the performance was improved, and we played well outside of the result.

 

[vanrooney]

So far into his time as United manager then you can't just put these games down to bad luck, like you can't put Southampton and Barnsley games as some sort of new dawn, or the Liverpool game as just a really bad off day.

His first season was quite good imo especially considering some quite hard situations like managing the Ronaldo situation and starting with a absolute disfunctional squad and a shit club structure. Second season was a disaster if there wasn’t the fa cup of course. The injury situation combined with a bad squad was one of the most important factors I would say. Of course he made mistakes, like bringing in Anthony but all in all I say the trajectory is right. You have to take into account where he started squad wise and where we are now.

He should now have the possibility to get the team playing good football and win something. That’s clear, although the squad doesn’t compare with city right now, it is quite balanced.

As it stands we played 5 pl games and played well in all of them if there wasn’t casemiro. We should have won at least yesterday and Brighton. So if you only look at this season I would say there is enough to be positive and if we continue to develop and I am sure we will with a fit lb we will have a good chance for top 4,

To be honest more than a top4 finish was never realistic at this point. Add the Europa league Titel to this and that would be another good season. With two more windows I would say we are ready to fight for the title again. But only if we don’t start all over again. Hopefully with the new football structure that wouldn’t be the case even if they sack eth

 

[Resonance]

We will never have sustained long term success under this guy. Matches against mid table teams away are a 50/50 for us now.

Worst decision in a decade to not get rid of him in the summer.

Outside of City under Pep, who has?

And we have people defending this

It’s both comical & tragic how low standards have fallen at this club. Celebrating a 0-0 against a winless Palace side cos we played quite well in the first half. Honestly it feels like we’re in an episode of black mirror at this point. We’ve gone through the looking glass.

Who's celebrating? I often too come up will bullshit scenarios in my head but then my brain engages before I actually post.

 

[glazed]

After five games? When you’re one of the ones that’s preached patience for Ten Hag in his third season?

Can you really not see how ridiculously knee jerk and hypocritical that is? Seems like you’ll do literally anything to deflect from Ten Hag, even if it means throwing a brand new coach under the bus. Shameful.

Are you unable to read? I am not criticising RvN. I'm saying it's illogical to blame ETH for the striker coaching. I wouldn't blame either of them myself.

 

[glazed]

Which doesn’t really make sense to me given how he used McTominay last season. They wouldn’t have been competing for the same spots. Who knows.

We did end up very exposed in the Liverpool game, having to bring on Collier. MIght just have been that.

 

[Zumbi]

Ah yes, the tactical nous of the redcafe.

Apologies for giving no credence to the drivel I see spouted here that is touted as “analysis”. Or the isolated, non contextualised, subjective stats banded around; that’s used to support baseless arguments.

For the record, it’s not a defence of ten hag. I wanted him gone, too. I still do. But the reality is, he was given an opportunity with a new structure by people much smarter and well versed in the running of club football than the denizens of this shit-hole. I’m more than happy to criticise where it’s just - but on the back of yesterday’s performance? Just because we didn’t win? That’s pathetic.

Also, yes, I have the audacity. A spade’s a spade, and all that jazz.

Stop changing the goals posts. You claimed people hadn’t pin pointed things when they had. if you were arguing in good faith you would have disagreed with the things they pin pointed instead of incorrectly claiming they hadn’t.

And again, people aren’t criticizing him just because we didn’t win. Most criticisms specifically relate to his in game management.

 

[Zumbi]

Are you unable to read? I am not criticising RvN. I'm saying it's illogical to blame ETH for the striker coaching. I wouldn't blame either of them myself.

Yes I can read. You literally wrote “logically RvN should be the target of our ire, not ETH.”

Why are you suggesting we blame RvN and then denying you did so? Can you not remember what you wrote?

 

[Zumbi]

But logically RvN should be the target of our ire, not ETH.

 

[Red & White]

So disappointing to see only 5 goals scored in 5 league games. Only Crystal Palace and newly promoted Ipswich and Southampton have less. This was a huge problem last season, too, so was desperate for us to hit the ground running.

 

[RedRocket9908]

3 seasons in with £650m spent on new players and still playing awful football with only 7 points picked up and only 5 goals scored from our opening 5 games leaving us 5 points behind City already, this start to the season has been nowhere near good enough and Erik should be deserevedly sacked.

 

[RORY65]

So disappointing to see only 5 goals scored in 5 league games. Only Crystal Palace and newly promoted Ipswich and Southampton have less. This was a huge problem last season, too, so was desperate for us to hit the ground running.

In fairness last season we weren't creating many chances, this season we have created chances in all of our games (admittedly we only did against Liverpool when they declared at 3-0) so if we keep doing that then the goals should start to come even if the team we had out yesterday doesn't have any players who are likely to score a ton of goals.

 

[Salford_Red83]

Yes, they are, because the underlying statistics give you a clearer picture of where we are, especially if the sample size of games played is very low.

For example, not sure how ETH is supposed to turn 10.21 xG into 10+ goals other than becoming player-manager and putting himself up front for us?

Do you blame ETH for the 0-7 at Anfield, or do you blame De Gea and the outfield players more for conceding 7 goals from 2.91 conceded xG?

Some people truly are lost

 

[Adz_99]

I think performances have improved this season (apart from the Liverpool game) but the bar was set so low it's difficult to get excited about some small improvements, particularly when results are still awful.

The Spurs game is make or break for Ten Hag. If he wins then let's just carry on and see what happens. But a plucky 2 all draw with some decent-ish football being played just isn't going to cut it. We HAVE to finish top 4.

 

[city-puma]

What’s the point to debate anything through microscope anymore?
2w 2l 1d are simply really poor start of a season!
If the result can’t catch up soon, this season is again a “transition”. It’s below the expectations of most supporters I guess.

 

[RedIan]

We bought 5 or 6 players in summer. All defensive with Only one attacking player in Zirkzee. Failure to address last seasons obvious lack of goals may come back and bite us on the bum. Ivan Toney would have immediately made a huge impact. He was available for reasonable money and we ignored him.

In January at least get a proven goal scorer in on loan.

 

[Leethal]

3 seasons in with £650m spent on new players and still playing awful football with only 7 points picked up and only 5 goals scored from our opening 5 games leaving us 5 points behind City already, this start to the season has been nowhere near good enough and Erik should be deserevedly sacked.

Awful football? Have you even been watching us this season? Or surmising your opinion off Twitter tweets and content creator YouTube clips?

If your opinion is that we’ve been awful this season is in fact, your opinion (doubt it), then I suggest sticking to video games where 10 goals combined for both sides is routine.

 

[Rojofiam]

Some people truly are lost

If anyone's lost, it's you.

"The only statistic that matters is the scoreline."

You said this to me 3 weeks ago.

It's clear that your brain is incapable of going beyond surface-level things, and results based logic.

Win = good. Lose = bad. Delve a bit deeper into things? No thanks.

 

[ManRed]

At what point do we sack? Are we waiting until Christmas?

 

[Salford_Red83]

If anyone's lost, it's you.

"The only statistic that matters is the scoreline."

You said this to me 3 weeks ago.

It's clear that your brain is incapable of going beyond surface-level things, and results based logic.

Win = good. Lose = bad. Delve a bit deeper into things? No thanks.

Is it not?

 

[Adz_99]

Looking at the fixture list, Ten Hag could be gone on the 6th of October. Next 2 games are Spurs home and Villa away. Could conceivably lose both of those and that'll almost certainly be the end.

For me he has to win both for the start of the season to be anything other than an utter disaster.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Looking at the fixture list, Ten Hag could be gone on the 6th of October. Next 2 games are Spurs home and Villa away. Could conceivably lose both of those and that'll almost certainly be the end.

For me he has to win both for the start of the season to be anything other than an utter disaster.

Surely we beat Spurs. They look all kinds of awful this season.

 

[Zumbi]

If anyone's lost, it's you.

"The only statistic that matters is the scoreline."

You said this to me 3 weeks ago.

It's clear that your brain is incapable of going beyond surface-level things, and results based logic.

Win = good. Lose = bad. Delve a bit deeper into things? No thanks.

What do you think will seal Ten Hag’s fate with Ineos? Our results and our league position or our xg?

Sure, we can have nuanced and in depth debates about performances and tactics and various stats. Nothing wrong with that - all part of the fun. But ultimately everything will always come down to the league table when assessing a football manager’s tenure at a top club. If a manager continually underperforms on that front, they will eventually get sacked. And it seems we’re very close to that point with Ten Hag, because we are still underperforming when it comes to results, despite some improvements in performances.

 

[tjb]

Finally, some common sense amongst a sea of stupidity.

As a club, I'm not sure we can afford more seasons of slow or no progress. Ten Hag went into the season with a lot to prove. Because we have INEOS doesn't mean the previous seasons under Ten Hag have been swept away. As a club, we want to be back into a position where we are good enough to be challenging for all major trophies available. In terms of talent and how much we've spent, we should already be there. If Ten Hag was a new manager, it would make sense to give him the benefit of the doubt, but he's not. Too many fans and people related to the club are just too willing to waste seasons. How many seasons can we afford to waste before we can't get back up. As a club, yesterday epitomized our struggles over the last decade. Lack of urgency disguised as a constant state of rebuilding.

 

[FrenchRed]

At this point I, just want him gone.

I have been ETH since mid last season, it now feels like we are just wasting time.

 

[Rojofiam]

Is it not?

What do you think will seal Ten Hag’s fate with Ineos? Our results and our league position or our xg?

Sure, we can have nuanced and in depth debates about performances and tactics and various stats. Nothing wrong with that - all part of the fun. But ultimately everything will always come down to the league table when assessing a football manager’s tenure at a top club. If a manager continually underperforms on that front, they will eventually get sacked. And it seems we’re very close to that point with Ten Hag, because we are still underperforming when it comes to results, despite some improvements in performances.

Will you ever reach consistently good results over several seasons, and become one of the best teams in the world, if you disregard everything and only care about results, when the underlying statistics might suggest you are better than what the results over a small sample size of games played show? You would need to permanently avoid bad luck

Says it all that I'm not even ETH in, I'm just trying to make you pivot from this flawed logic that nothing ever matters except the results in the end. I'm not saying ETH will be successful at United, but we've clearly improved on last season so far, and like it or not, with Ineos coming in, the past 2 years don't matter as much as it normally would without the ownership change.

 

[Blood Mage]

Comical how shit ETH is allowed to have us doing

I don't understand why he's still here, I really don't.

 

[Zumbi]

Will you ever reach consistently good results over several seasons, and become one of the best teams in the world, if you disregard everything and only care about results, when the underlying statistics might suggest you are better than what the results over a small sample size of games played show? You would need to permanently avoid bad luck

Says it all that I'm not even ETH in, I'm just trying to make you pivot from this flawed logic that nothing ever matters except the results in the end. I'm not saying ETH will be successful at United, but we've clearly improved on last season so far, and like it or not, with Ineos coming in, the past 2 years don't matter as much as it normally would without the ownership change.

We’ve already had several seasons under Ten Hag. If the results don’t come this season, and very soon, he’ll be gone, and rightfully so.

No one is saying it’s only the results that matter. We’re just saying the results also matter, a lot. Especially in the third year of a tenure where he’s been backed with enormous sums of money. He cannot be eternally shielded by “bad luck”, “injuries”, “but we’re improving”, “but it’s a project”, “but look at our xg”.

 

[glazed]

Yes I can read. You literally wrote “logically RvN should be the target of our ire, not ETH.”

Why are you suggesting we blame RvN and then denying you did so? Can you not remember what you wrote?

Then you are misunderstanding, perhaps willfully. I'm not suggesting we blame RvN I'm suggesting it makes more sense to blame him that ETH. But I don't advocate either. I'm just flagging up the irrationality of blaming ETH rather than RvN for poor coaching of goal scorers when literally every other part of the team he coaches is playing well.

 

[Redfrog]

We outplayed Palace whole game, what else should Ten Hag do, come in and finish all those chances himself?

If he can’t do nothing, we should find someone who can.

 

[Zumbi]

Then you are misunderstanding, perhaps willfully. I'm not suggesting we blame RvN I'm suggesting it makes more sense to blame him that ETH. But I don't advocate either. I'm just flagging up the irrationality of blaming ETH rather than RvN for poor coaching of goal scorers when literally every other part of the team he coaches is playing well.

If you don’t mean the things you write, then perhaps don’t write them.

The ultimate responsibility for all aspects of our team lies with Ten Hag. He’s hd years with this team, RvN has had just a few games with them. Trying to shift blame on to a brand new coach and then trying to pretend you didn’t is pretty poor form.

Also, I’m not sure how one good first half performance suddenly means every other part of our team is playing well. Did you forget the meltdown our midfield had against Liverpool recently?

 

[Bocca9978]

I don't understand why he's still here, I really don't.

My Liverpool (sadly) neighbour says the same. When they know that he should be gone but are glad he hasn’t, it says it all.

 

[VP89]

I’m still not sure how you you missed the actual point so badly in that whole back and forth. Because the point wasn’t about the table, even though it was referenced.

The point was that based on our seasons so far, expecting us to beat Spurs didn’t seem that well founded. That the game could go either way, because it’s hard to be confident in either team’s results given what they’ve shown so far this season.

The debate between us was started after I said looking at the table after 5 games is utterly pointless. And then you seemed to argue otherwise, asking at what stage it should be looked at instead.

 

[ForeverRed1]

Premier League away record:
P41 - W17 - D7 - L17
GF52 - GA65

If you want that to look even more grim, without promoted sides:
P34 - W10 - D7 - L17
GF39 - GA62

It was always going to be grim and not pretty.

Getting to the root cause of problems always is. This season won’t be particularly pretty at times but we’ll start to see massive improvement on how we play, style of play and attitude.

January transfer window and next summer will see the last of the dead wood leave along with rashford/bruno. I predict next summer will see a totally fresh squad from when ETH took over with no OG players left (at worse one or two).

This season will be progress, far from perfection.

 

[Zumbi]

The debate between us was started after I said looking at the table after 5 games is utterly pointless. And then you seemed to argue otherwise, asking at what stage it should be looked at instead.

The debate branched off in to that sure, where I repeatedly said that both results and performances matter, and that bad enough results early in the season can still be detrimental to a team’s chances over the season. I stand by that.

But the original point that started it all was someone saying they expected us to beat Spurs. I replied by saying I didn’t think that was a sound expectation and thy I wouldn’t be surprised by a win, draw or loss against Spurs, specifically because both teams results have been very inconsistent so far this season, as evidenced by the league table.

 

[VP89]

The debate branched off in to that sure, where I repeatedly said that both results and performances matter, and that bad enough results early in the season can still be detrimental to a team’s chances over the season. I stand by that.

But the original point that started it all was someone saying they expected us to beat Spurs. I replied by saying I didn’t think that was a sound expectation and thy I wouldn’t be surprised by a win, draw or loss against Spurs, specifically because both teams results have been very inconsistent so far this season, as evidenced by the league table.

You know what my debate with you was about. It's silly to point to a league table 5 games in. If you agreed with that in the first place we didn't need so many exchanges.

 

[Zumbi]

You know what my debate with you was about. It's silly to point to a league table 5 games in. If you agreed with that in the first place we didn't need so many exchanges.

On the contrary, it’s silly to completely disregard results five games in as if they’re some sort of irrelevance. League tables are, after all, merely a formatted way of displaying results, and both performances and results are important in football no matter what stage of the season we’re in.

Besides, you know full well I wasn’t arguing the current table was conclusive of anything. I referenced it only when making a very specific point about an upcoming match against a team who we’re equal on points with. But as an earlier poster pointed out, you tend to drag things into the weeds in your attempts to deflect any criticism of Ten Hag.