Erik ten Hag | 2024/25 | Sacked

[VP89]

On the contrary, it’s silly to completely disregard results five games in as if they’re some sort of irrelevance. League tables are, after all, merely a formatted way of displaying results, and both performances and results are important in football no matter what stage of the season we’re in.

Besides, you know full well I wasn’t arguing the current table was conclusive of anything. I referenced it only when making a very specific point about an upcoming match against a team who we’re equal on points with. But as an earlier poster pointed out, you tend to drag things into the weeds in your attempts to deflect any criticism of Ten Hag.

I didn't say it's irrelevant. Results aren't irrelevant. But relying on a league table when making a point 5 points in is quite silly, particularly when the teams are on even points.

 

[Superden]

For all our good play in the first half, he was outwitted by the oppositions managers changes in the second. Not for the first time. He just doesnt have that magic touch to inspire teams / is tactically astute enough on the fly.

 

[glazed]

If you don’t mean the things you write, then perhaps don’t write them.

I mean what I write and I explained what I mean. If you continue not to understand that's between you and your neurons and I can't help you.

 

[Zumbi]

I didn't say it's irrelevant. Results aren't irrelevant. But relying on a league table when making a point 5 points in is quite silly, particularly when the teams are on even points.

I wasn’t relying on it. It was just one piece of information I included amongst several others when making a point about one particular upcoming game. As for your “particularly when the teams are even on points”, congratulations! You accidentally, albeit belatedly found the point. Us having similarly inconsistent results to Spurs is exactly why I don’t share the other poster’s expectation that we will win that match. As I’ve said several times already, for me it’s a toss up that could go either way.

 

[Sarni]

I don't understand why he's still here, I really don't.

We are not a sacking club. We stand by our manager.

I think INEOS simply ended up giving in to fans pressure in the Summer. After we won the cup, overwhelming majority of our fans wanted ETH to stay. I think that is also why we won’t sack him anytime soon as outside this forum he seems to still be hugely supported by our fans, and I get the same feeling from matchgoing fans as well (he got huge applause during his speech after Newcastle game before we even beat City). I think barring an absolute disaster he will have fans behind him as long as he’s here so at one point INEOS might have to act against it. But it won’t be for a while.

I actually think we will do well this year and finish 5th - 6th, which will earn him a 2-3 year extension. The signs so far this year indicate that we are capable of getting to 5th with a bit of luck.

 

[Zumbi]

I mean what I write and I explained what I mean. If you continue not to understand that's between you and your neurons and I can't help you.

Literally no one was taking about RvN when you decided to suggest we start directing our ire at him. An absolutely laughable take from someone that’s repeatedly pleaded for patience with Ten Hag.

We can all read that you decided to write that, no matter how much you deny it. It’s there in black and white. .

 

[glazed]

Literally no one was taking about RvN when you decided to suggest we start directing our ire at him. An absolutely laughable take from someone that’s repeatedly pleaded for patience with Ten Hag.

We can all read that you decided to write that, no matter how much you deny it. It’s there in black and white. .

Doubtless intelligent people will understand the point that you cannot. Which is that it makes more sense to criticise RvP than ETH for the goal scoring performance of the strikers. But neither makes much sense since one striker is settling in and the other is coming back from injury.

You can continue to suggest I said something else but the only person who will get laughed at is you.

And yes, ETH needs patience. Judge him in the new year.

 

[VP89]

I wasn’t relying on it. It was just one piece of information I included amongst several others when making a point about one particular upcoming game. As for your “particularly when the teams are even on points”, congratulations! You accidentally, albeit belatedly found the point. Us having similarly inconsistent results to Spurs is exactly why I don’t share the other poster’s expectation that we will win that match. As I’ve said several times already, for me it’s a toss up that could go either way.

I think you need to differentiate between what I posted and what you were debating with the other poster. Go back and revisit my first post, and your subsequent reply. You even asked when one should look at the league table if not 5 games in which shows you were reliant on it for making a point. I think unless we are on an atrocious start to the season, 5 games in doesn't give much information.

 

[Zumbi]

Doubtless intelligent people will understand the point that you cannot. Which is that it makes more sense to criticise RvP than ETH for the goal scoring performance of the strikers. But neither makes much sense since one striker is settling in and the other is coming back from injury.

You can continue to suggest I said something else but the only person who will get laughed at is you.

And yes, ETH needs patience. Judge him in the new year.

Ten Hag has had several seasons to work with our attacking players. RvN had only been here a few weeks. Given your history of pleading for patience, why would you criticize the guy that only just got here and not the guy that’s been working with them for years?

Please, take us less intelligent folk through that genius thought process?

If blaming neither of them makes sense, then why did you suggest we blame anyone?

 

[stevoc]

We are not a sacking club. We stand by our manager.

I think INEOS simply ended up giving in to fans pressure in the Summer. After we won the cup, overwhelming majority of our fans wanted ETH to stay. I think that is also why we won’t sack him anytime soon as outside this forum he seems to still be hugely supported by our fans, and I get the same feeling from matchgoing fans as well (he got huge applause during his speech after Newcastle game before we even beat City). I think barring an absolute disaster he will have fans behind him as long as he’s here so at one point INEOS might have to act against it. But it won’t be for a while.

I actually think we will do well this year and finish 5th - 6th, which will earn him a 2-3 year extension. The signs so far this year indicate that we are capable of getting to 5th with a bit of luck.

We don't need luck, if we finish 5th it'll be because Erik dragged us up there. And after such a dizzingly high finish it would need to be more than a 2-3 year extension. More like 4-5, give him another 5 years and another billion to spend and who knows where he can take us.

Probably 3rd.

 

[Tyrion]

I'm amazed that some fans want him to stay. Seems pretty obvious the club wasn't sure who to replace him with so just left him in place. I'd be surprised if he's still there by the end of the season.

 

[Zumbi]

I think you need to differentiate between what I posted and what you were debating with the other poster. Go back and revisit my first post, and your subsequent reply. You even asked when one should look at the league table if not 5 games in which shows you were reliant on it for making a point. I think unless we are on an atrocious start to the season, 5 games in doesn't give much information.

You were the one that jumped into that debate with a reply, so you can’t now try and wash your hands of what that debate was originally about as if it’s some sort of irrelevance.

You originally replied with “I think anyone looking at a table 5 games in has a wider problem with their analysis of the game”.

To which I replied “Only if that’s their only method of analyzing the game. If, however, it’s used as one piece of information in amongst various other pieces of information (such as watching matches), then it’s an absolutely valid reference point. Are you trying to say the league table should just be disregarded? How many games in does the league table become relevant?”

So I very specifically noted from the outset in my back and forth with you that it was not something I was solely relying on. You continuing to suggest that I am relying on it, rather than taking it into account along with other things like I explicitly said, is just dishonest.

As you just mentioned above, we are equal on points with Spurs. Which is one (just one) of the reasons why I don’t think it makes sense to expect a win against them. Because both our results and performances have been very inconsistent, as have theirs, and so I think that match is a toss up.

 

[Redstain]

Premier League away record:
P41 - W17 - D7 - L17
GF52 - GA65

If you want that to look even more grim, without promoted sides:
P34 - W10 - D7 - L17
GF39 - GA62

An absolute disgrace, it's the spending power of United that has elevated Erik's position with respect to certain results, tactically he's a mid-table level manager who's being over-compensated by a club with vast resources.

INEOS will have United at the top if they get the next managerial appointment correct, club can't move forward under the present coach.

 

[redNATION]

Premier League away record:
P41 - W17 - D7 - L17
GF52 - GA65

If you want that to look even more grim, without promoted sides:
P34 - W10 - D7 - L17
GF39 - GA62

I am staggered Ineos ran a review process and decided keeping Eth was the best outcome. In the modern game long term trends are telling, he’s been poor so long he’s not going to turn it around like Fergie in the 80s/90s. We’ll keep lumbering along with odd win here and there but nothing will impress until the manager is replaced.

 

[Leftback99]

Premier League away record:
P41 - W17 - D7 - L17
GF52 - GA65

If you want that to look even more grim, without promoted sides:
P34 - W10 - D7 - L17
GF39 - GA62

For teams that finished in the top half I think it's:

P18 - W2 - D2 - L14
GF17 - GA49

Counting Palace and Brighton this season:

P20 - W2 - D3 - L15

 

[TrueRed79]

At what point do we sack? Are we waiting until Christmas?

If he loses against Spurs and Villa then I can see him getting sacked. And deservedly as well.

 

[VP89]

You were the one that jumped into that debate with a reply, so you can’t now try and wash your hands of what that debate was originally about as if it’s some sort of irrelevance.

You originally replied with “I think anyone looking at a table 5 games in has a wider problem with their analysis of the game”.

To which I replied “Only if that’s their only method of analyzing the game. If, however, it’s used as one piece of information in amongst various other pieces of information (such as watching matches), then it’s an absolutely valid reference point. Are you trying to say the league table should just be disregarded? How many games in does the league table become relevant?”

So I very specifically noted from the outset in my back and forth with you that it was not something I was solely relying on. You continuing to suggest that I am relying on it, rather than taking it into account along with other things like I explicitly said, is just dishonest.

As you just mentioned above, we are equal on points with Spurs. Which is one (just one) of the reasons why I don’t think it makes sense to expect a win against them. Because both our results and performances have been very inconsistent, as have theirs, and so I think that match is a toss up.

So going to your broader point in that case, you think we should NOT expect to beat Spurs at Old Trafford?

 

[Salford_Red83]

Will you ever reach consistently good results over several seasons, and become one of the best teams in the world, if you disregard everything and only care about results, when the underlying statistics might suggest you are better than what the results over a small sample size of games played show? You would need to permanently avoid bad luck

Says it all that I'm not even ETH in, I'm just trying to make you pivot from this flawed logic that nothing ever matters except the results in the end. I'm not saying ETH will be successful at United, but we've clearly improved on last season so far, and like it or not, with Ineos coming in, the past 2 years don't matter as much as it normally would without the ownership change.

But, we're in a worst league position than this time last year.

 

[Sarni]

If he loses against Spurs and Villa then I can see him getting sacked. And deservedly as well.

Not a chance. He’d maybe be in danger of losing his job if he hadn’t picked up 4 points against Southampton and Palace already.

 

[Zumbi]

So going to your broader point in that case, you think we should NOT expect to beat Spurs at Old Trafford?

As a club, that is exactly the sort of game we should expect to win. It’s the sort of game I used to expect us to win, and I miss feeling like that.

Under Ten Hag, no, I don’t expect us to win. There isn’t any result that would surprise me.

Because both our performances and our results
remain incredibly inconsistent. Even when playing some of our better games, we contrive to find ways to drop points, either by failing to score or by conceding soft goals, even against teams our squad should be more than capable of beating, as has happened recently against Brighton and Palace. And that happens even when having some of our better performances.
Recent experience has also taught me not to rule out us having a stinker and getting embarrassed either. The only saving grace is that we’re at home which makes the latter scenario slightly less likely.

This is one of the reasons I don’t think he’s the right man for the job.

 

[glazed]

Ten Hag has had several seasons to work with our attacking players. RvN had only been here a few weeks. Given your history of pleading for patience, why would you criticize the guy that only just got here and not the guy that’s been working with them for years?

Please, take us less intelligent folk through that genius thought process?

I already have. If you can't understand English by now you're not going to.

 

[Zumbi]

I already have. If you can't understand English by now you're not going to.

You haven’t. All you said was “that it makes more sense to criticise RvP than ETH for the goal scoring performance of the strikers”.

At no point have you explained why it makes more sense to blame the guy that’s been here for just a few games versus the guy that’s been in charge of the team for several years.

 

[glazed]

You haven’t. All you said was “that it makes more sense to criticise RvP than ETH for the goal scoring performance of the strikers”.

At no point have you explained why it makes more sense to blame the guy that’s been here for just a few games versus the guy that’s been in charge of the team for several years.

I have explained that neither make sense and the issue is the assumption that poor coaching is the cause of our lack of goals. If you (I mean you generically not you personally) chose to wrongly blame it on the coaching then logically you'd criticise RvN first as he's the striker coach. But you'd be a fool to do so. Because bad coaching is not the issue.

You (personally) seem to have some mental issue with processing what I'm saying. I'm afraid I can't help you with that and I'm sorry you're struggling with these tricky abstract concepts. If you have any further issues just go and reread the above till it sinks in. Good luck!

 

[Zumbi]

I have explained that neither make sense and the issue is the assumption that poor coaching is the cause of our lack of goals. If you (I mean you generically not you personally) chose to wrongly blame it on the coaching then logically you'd criticise RvN first as he's the striker coach. But you'd be a brainless knuckle dragging moron to do so. Because bad coaching is not the issue.

You (personally) seem to have some mental issue with processing what I'm saying. I'm afraid I can't help you with that and I'm sorry you're struggling with these tricky abstract concepts. If you have any further issues just go and reread the above till it sinks in. Good luck!

No. Logically I wouldn’t blame that on the coach that’s only just arrived. Logically I’d blame it on the coach that’s been coaching the players for the last several years.

You have been one of the ones pleading patience. So why do you think it would be logical to blame someone who has only just arrived?

Make it make sense.

 

[cpresc]

Literally no one was taking about RvN when you decided to suggest we start directing our ire at him. An absolutely laughable take from someone that’s repeatedly pleaded for patience with Ten Hag.

We can all read that you decided to write that, no matter how much you deny it. It’s there in black and white. .

what's "ire" ?

I keep seeing this posted

 

[Zumbi]

what's "ire" ?

I keep seeing this posted

Dictionary definition is “intense and usually openly displayed anger”.

 

[cpresc]

Dictionary definition is “intense and usually openly displayed anger”.

oh thanks, I thought it must have been an acronym

 

[glazed]

No. Logically I wouldn’t blame that on the coach that’s only just arrived. Logically I’d blame it on the coach that’s been coaching the players for the last several years.

You have been one of the ones pleading patience. So why do you think it would be logical to blame someone who has only just arrived?

Make it make sense.

Because when we're talking about the lack of goals we're talking about centre forwards and the only fit one, Zirkzee, arrived two months ago. The other one, Hojlund, is recovering from injury.

Again it would only be logical to blame RvN if you wanted to blame these two's lack of goals at Palace and more generally on coaching. I don't.

But you can keep asking the question over and over again if it makes you happy. The answer will stay the same.

 

[Zumbi]

Because when we're talking about the lack of goals we're talking about centre forwards and the only fit one, Zirkzee, arrived two months ago. The other one, Hojlund, is recovering from injury.

Again it would only be logical to blame RvN if you wanted to blame these two's lack of goals at Palace and more generally on coaching. I don't.

But you can keep asking the question over and over again if it makes you happy. The answer will stay the same.

If you didn’t want to blame him, it was super weird to decide to type “But logically RvN should be the target of our ire, not ETH.”

Instead of something like “if we blame anyone, which we shouldn’t…, it should be”

Like I said before, try typing what you mean, instead of typing things you apparently don’t mean.

 

[cpresc]

Everyone seems to be jumping on EtH again now and the sentiment swings are really extreme.

We played great in that first half and looked proper solid.

If Garnacho's shot that hit the bar had been a couple inches lower, we'd have walked that game with Palace having to push up for a goal and made more space for our wingers.

Everyone in here would have been singing EtH's praises for this new run of form.

Fine margins.

 

[glazed]

If you didn’t want to blame him, it was super weird to decide to type “But logically RvN should be the target of our ire, not ETH.”

Instead of something like “if we blame anyone, which we shouldn’t…, it should be”

Like I said before, try typing what you mean, instead of typing things you apparently don’t mean.

Thanks for the style tip. I typed exactly I meant. Within the context of the full post what I wrote was completely clear.

What we don't have is a decent centre forward because we've committed to coaching young ones rather than buying off the shelf. Will Hojland and Zirkzee come good on goal scoring? We will see. But logically RvN should be the target of our ire, not ETH.

 

[Zumbi]

We have a credible midfield and a solid back line. It's not the same. What we don't have is a decent centre forward because we've committed to coaching young ones rather than buying off the shelf. Will Hojland and Zirkzee come good on goal scoring? We will see. But logically RvN should be the target of our ire, not ETH.

I think the issue here is you saying “should be” instead of “shouldn’t be”.

Stating he should be the target of our ire is just a really strange way of trying to express that you don’t think he should be the target of our ire, as you’re now claiming you meant.

Of course, if you really didn’t think anyone should be the subject of our ire, it would have made a lot of sense to just leave that last, very suggestive sounding sentence out completely.

 

[glazed]

I think the issue here is you saying “should be” instead of “shouldn’t be”.

Stating he should be the target of our ire is just a really strange way of trying to express that you don’t think he should be the target of our ire, as you’re now claiming you meant.

Very happy with what I wrote, thanks.

Logically RvN is the coach responsible for the centre forward goal scoring, which is the only thing missing from the performance of the one centre forward we have, Zirkzee. Logically if you were in the 80% looking for a coaching scapegoat (I'm not) and wanted to blame someone (I don't) you'd blame him, not ETH. But it would be wrong to do so.

It's not that deep.

 

[Zumbi]

Everyone seems to be jumping on EtH again now and the sentiment swings are really extreme.

We played great in that first half and looked proper solid.

If Garnacho's shot that hit the bar had been a couple inches lower, we'd have walked that game with Palace having to push up for a goal and made more space for our wingers.

Everyone in here would have been singing EtH's praises for this new run of form.

Fine margins.

If Onana hadn’t made that double save it or if Eze had buried that easy chance, we’d have suffered another bad loss. Fine margins indeed.

Very happy with what I wrote, thanks.

Logically RvN is the coach responsible for the centre forward goal scoring, which is the only thing missing from the performance of the one centre forward we have, Zirkzee. Logically if you were in the 80% looking for a coaching scapegoat (I'm not) and wanted to blame someone (I don't) you'd blame him, not ETH. But it would be wrong to do so.

It's not that deep.

Given that our inability to score goals was very apparent last season as well as this season, logically the person to blame, if you were going to blame a coach, would be the coach that was here last season and this season. That would be the head coach who is ultimately the one responsible for all aspects of the team.

Logically if I didn’t want to blame any coaches, I wouldn’t bother typing sentences suggesting we direct ire at a particular coach.

 

[simonhch]

I’ve come to the conclusion about Ten Hag that he is probably an excellent technical coach. In that he knows how to coach players well in how to receive the ball under pressure, and play their way out of trouble. That he’s good at coaching the technical aspects of the game. But that he doesn’t know how to set a team up to be functional as a unit, and tactically he doesn’t know how to overcome opponents. This was evident yesterday with the changes he made, and how they lost us control of the game. He just doesn’t know how to positively affect outcomes or see patterns in the game.

He’s probably someone who would excel as an assistant manager, maintaining discipline and coaching technical excellence, alongside a softer more approachable AM for the human/mental side of the game. And then having him report to a head coach who can see the bigger picture, shape how players are used, how the team is set up. I just don’t see him as a leader. He doesn’t have the communication skills to inspire people and he is regularly caught out by teams changing shape or exploiting obvious weaknesses in our set up; and routinely fails to react to worrying patterns.

He’s a manager, not a leader. And I mean that in the leadership sense, not in the traditional football sense. In organisations, managers do things the right way, leaders do the right things.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

If Onana hadn’t made that double save it or if Eze had buried that easy chance, we’d have suffered another bad loss and be left wallowing at the bottom of the table on . Fine margins indeed.

Or saved a penalty the week before when we were getting outplayed by one of the worst teams in the league.

Those talking about performance levels like they are suddenly infallible are strange ones.

 

[soapythecat]

‘it’s only 5 games’ is the new benchmark it seems. Let’s forget this is the 3rd season of tumescent football and the huge outlay on his players, it’s still anyone but ETH’s fault.
If anyone thinks he’s still capable of getting us back in the top 4, let alone title challenge, then you don’t watch United.

 

[bleedred]

After five games? When you’re one of the ones that’s preached patience for Ten Hag in his third season?

Can you really not see how ridiculously knee jerk and hypocritical that is? Seems like you’ll do literally anything to deflect from Ten Hag, even if it means throwing a brand new coach under the bus. Shameful.

It's everyone else's fault except for Eth.

The only ones who haven't yet been used as scapegoat are probably the Tealady and the announcer.

 

[TsuWave]

If Garnacho's shot that hit the bar had been a couple inches lower, we'd have walked that game with Palace having to push up for a goal and made more space for our wingers.

Everyone in here would have been singing EtH's praises for this new run of form.

Fine margins.

When people make these “if” scenarios they seem to think they could only go United’s way or something.

And the run of “form” in question - LLWWD - with one of those W’s being against Barnsley in the league cup. “Singing his praises”. God

 

[NewGlory]

Erik is in tough place having failed to win against Crystal Palace. We are clearly improving, but we are losing too many points and time is running out for us to climb up the EPL table

Pragmatically, Erik needs to win against both Spurs and Villa if we want to make a real claim for top 4. Anything short of that puts us on trajectory for 5th or 6th by end of the season. And yes, I know it is early, but these early games do come calling by the end of the season

It will be very hard to win both of these games. We are progressing, without a doubt, but we are still very very early in our turnaround and both Villa and Spurs are more stable and consistent.

Probabilistically, 4 points out of 6 in these two games will be good performance, but I am afraid it won't be enough for us to get on top4 finish trajectory...

I don't think Erik will get sacked any time soon, if we keep playing well, even if we are losing points, but he will get sacked end of the season if we don't make Champions League and/or finish below 6th. That I am certain of