Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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Red the Bear said:
Very worried about the prospects of having a LVG esque summer window as our targets so far do seem a bit too risky for my taste but I'd be remiss if I didn't opt to support him anyway.

He's got enough credit in the bank and seemingly a clear blueprint to put us on a path to play a more modern way of football, that's more than enough for now.
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We are seeing the fruit of the same situation with previous managers that has continually failed where they are given too much influence when it comes to shaping the squad compared to a cohesive element of the footballing director pioneering the direction of the team.

I also think even a summer with Mount, Onana and Hojlund is relatively poor. The biggest issue last season was striker, wide areas and depth in quality around the midfield. Does Mount even outplay a inform Eriksen ? We would have assumed that the profile of player to sign for the midfield would have been one to replace Eriksen by way of having superior or similar attributes. I don't see any examples where Mount is a better distributor of the ball, he doesn't come across as press resistant and he doesn't progress with the ball in possession which is FDJ offered when chasing him last summer. Those are improvements to what Eriksen offers and the work ethic is good but that's out of possession.

Unless ETH plans to be more of a counter attacking side, Mount as an 8 in the midfield doesn't make too much sense especially alongside someone like Bruno.
 
Redstain said:
We are seeing the fruit of the same situation with previous managers that has continually failed where they are given too much influence when it comes to shaping the squad compared to a cohesive element of the footballing director pioneering the direction of the team.

I also think even a summer with Mount, Onana and Hojlund is relatively poor. The biggest issue last season was striker, wide areas and depth in quality around the midfield. Does Mount even outplay a inform Eriksen ? We would have assumed that the profile of player to sign for the midfield would have been one to replace Eriksen by way of having superior or similar attributes. I don't see any examples where Mount is a better distributor of the ball, he doesn't come across as press resistant and he doesn't progress with the ball in possession which is FDJ offered when chasing him last summer. Those are improvements to what Eriksen offers and the work ethic is good but that's out of possession.

Unless ETH plans to be more of a counter attacking side, Mount as an 8 in the midfield doesn't make too much sense especially alongside someone like Bruno.
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Murtough's vision for the direction of the team is to play football on the front foot with a high press, it was the objective set for Ole to move towards.

He has hired a manager with that same vision and experience in having such squads at his disposal. You only "know" Ten Hag wanted X Y and Z player because the media tell you that's the process. How do you know that the scouting team, Murtough and Ten Hag don't communicate about targets and make decisions together based on the data?

You don't, you just know what the media tells you.

The fact is that if your vision is A, and you hire a manager with that same vision then you back that manager to manage that vision and support him. Just like Liverpool did Klopp, just like City did Pep.
 
Borys said:
I didn't get that impression, mostly because it was very rare that we actually had control. Eriksen looks elegant on the ball, especially when nobody is pressing him, but that is rarely the case. I think Eriksen has been great for us, but ETH overplayed him regularly and overall his impact was a bit overrated because he did very little off the ball - and I struggle to understand why people don't see that. The team looking knackered around 60th minute IMO is also a result of just a few players doing the running. This comment is not for you, but the CAF in general. Feels like we have not learnt our Pogba lesson.
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I think you should check out running stats for Eriksen. It will surprise you.
 
Stinkypete said:
Murtough's vision for the direction of the team is to play football on the front foot with a high press, it was the objective set for Ole to move towards.

He has hired a manager with that same vision and experience in having such squads at his disposal. You only "know" Ten Hag wanted X Y and Z player because the media tell you that's the process. How do you know that the scouting team, Murtough and Ten Hag don't communicate about targets and make decisions together based on the data?

You don't, you just know what the media tells you.

The fact is that if your vision is A, and you hire a manager with that same vision then you back that manager to manage that vision and support him. Just like Liverpool did Klopp, just like City did Pep.
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That's nonsense because United never played played a high press under Solskjaer they absorbed pressure and was a team that was more dependent on transitions.

It's nothing but imaginative speculation to assume that Murtough's vision corresponded with what you have mentioned. In fact there's an interview on the United site where ETH is the one outlining the long term vision not his superiors: https://www.manutd.com/en/news/deta...or-manchester-united-in-fans-media-conference.

The scouting infrastructure was changed ahead of ETH appointment so its obvious the targets that were demanded were his recommendations more than the clubs. There's also minimalistic comparison with Liverpool and City, for instance Klopp was disinterested in Salah and Michael Edwards was the one who convinced the manager to sign the player. City appointed Txiki Begiristain specifically to work with Guardiola due to their previous relationship. There's nothing tangible in the slightest to suggest United have a vision from the hierarchy because the fundamental differences between managerial appointments show it. The model of the manager dictating the teams direction has repetitively failed as its not sustainable but it's one we are witnessing again under the current manager. This is also not a criticism of the manager its critical of the club's structure and individuals within those positions.
 
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NLunited said:
I think you should check out running stats for Eriksen. It will surprise you.
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That's probably a good point, it's not really about the running. I bet we have a few players that do the running but are a ghost defensively.

For Eriksen, once again the stats meet the eye test:
LVx2H1h.png
 
Borys said:
That's probably a good point, it's not really about the running. I bet we have a few players that do the running but are a ghost defensively.

For Eriksen, once again the stats meet the eye test:
LVx2H1h.png
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Eriksen is an attacking midfielder so that is not surprising. He does run a lot off the ball to get in good positions and drops deep to distribute.
 
NLunited said:
Eriksen is an attacking midfielder so that is not surprising. He does run a lot off the ball to get in good positions and drops deep to distribute.
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That is not surprising at all. The problem still stands, we have players who do the distance but are contribute very little defensively. Also a big reason I thought this is a big mistake to play him in that role, but we seem to be fixing that with another AM so interesting how this goes.
 
Borys said:
That is not surprising at all. The problem still stands, we have players who do the distance but are contribute very little defensively. Also a big reason I thought this is a big mistake to play him in that role, but we seem to be fixing that with another AM so interesting how this goes.
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Two points. Our defense has been very good, except mental/tactical breakdowns in four games or so. Our defense is not a huge issue.

What we do struggle with is playing out the back and keeping the ball in midfield. Eriksen is key in that and Mount will be as well. If we get Amrabat, we get another ball playing midfielder, who also can fill in for Casemiro. With Onana replacing DeGea, the issue should be solved.
 
NLunited said:
Two points. Our defense has been very good, except mental/tactical breakdowns in four games or so. Our defense is not a huge issue.

What we do struggle with is playing out the back and keeping the ball in midfield. Eriksen is key in that and Mount will be as well. If we get Amrabat, we get another ball playing midfielder, who also can fill in for Casemiro. With Onana replacing DeGea, the issue should be solved.
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What do you mean "the defense"? If you mean back 4, I'd say one of the best in the league. If we're talking about back 4 + midfield, nowhere close good enough. Casemiro is doing way too much by himself as Eriksen does close to nothing defensively, and Bruno is doing a lot of running but we don't press as a team anyway so this isn't very effective.

Our defense is not a huge issue, but our midfield being overrun is very much an issue away from home. I hope Mount alone will solve that (Eriksen is just the easiest one to replace), but I also don't think he will distribute the ball that reliably as Christian, so we'll see how this works out.

I have no idea how much impact will have on that team, I can only hope we can push defenders a bit higher and ask Martinez to start attacks because we don't have a midfielder to do that still.
Personally I think we're being a bit too optimistic with #6 + two #10s, but that sure is very exciting setup. I just don't think we should count on getting more control over the game compared to last season, what a lot of people on here seem to believe.
 
Borys said:
What do you mean "the defense"? If you mean back 4, I'd say one of the best in the league. If we're talking about back 4 + midfield, nowhere close good enough. Casemiro is doing way too much by himself as Eriksen does close to nothing defensively, and Bruno is doing a lot of running but we don't press as a team anyway so this isn't very effective.

Our defense is not a huge issue, but our midfield being overrun is very much an issue away from home. I hope Mount alone will solve that (Eriksen is just the easiest one to replace), but I also don't think he will distribute the ball that reliably as Christian, so we'll see how this works out.

I have no idea how much impact will have on that team, I can only hope we can push defenders a bit higher and ask Martinez to start attacks because we don't have a midfielder to do that still.
Personally I think we're being a bit too optimistic with #6 + two #10s, but that sure is very exciting setup. I just don't think we should count on getting more control over the game compared to last season, what a lot of people on here seem to believe.
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The number 6 plus two 10s idea is speculation. Probably it will be more like last season with Mount taking Eriksen‘s role.
 
NLunited said:
The number 6 plus two 10s idea is speculation. Probably it will be more like last season with Mount taking Eriksen‘s role.
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You said yourself Eriksen is an attacking midfielder, so is Mount. So it's just semantics if we call them #10/attacking #8s, the issue with unbalanced midfield still stands. Like I said, we're being optimistic here as we at United love pushing attacking midfielders into deeper central areas. Let's see how it works this time.
 
Borys said:
You said yourself Eriksen is an attacking midfielder, so is Mount. So it's just semantics if we call them #10/attacking #8s, the issue with unbalanced midfield still stands. Like I said, we're being optimistic here as we at United love pushing attacking midfielders into deeper central areas. Let's see how it works this time.
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I don‘t quite agree with the unbalanced midfield trope. We have one screening/tackling dm, one playmaking cm and one chance creating cm/am (Casemiro/Eriksen/Bruno). The balance is good.

What we need is backup for Eriksen (gets tired) and Casemiro. Mount and maybe Amrabat are cover for them and Mount is an upgrade energy wise on Eriksen.
 
Borys said:
I have no idea how much impact will have on that team, I can only hope we can push defenders a bit higher and ask Martinez to start attacks because we don't have a midfielder to do that still.
Personally I think we're being a bit too optimistic with #6 + two #10s, but that sure is very exciting setup. I just don't think we should count on getting more control over the game compared to last season, what a lot of people on here seem to believe.
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People confused by your posts because we all watched Eriksen drop deep to help with the buildup and start attacks last year.
 
Redstain said:
That's nonsense because United never played played a high press under Solskjaer they absorbed pressure and was a team that was more dependent on transitions.

It's nothing but imaginative speculation to assume that Murtough's vision corresponded with what you have mentioned. In fact there's an interview on the United site where ETH is the one outlining the long term vision not his superiors: https://www.manutd.com/en/news/deta...or-manchester-united-in-fans-media-conference.

The scouting infrastructure was changed ahead of ETH appointment so its obvious the targets that were demanded were his recommendations more than the clubs. There's also minimalistic comparison with Liverpool and City, for instance Klopp was disinterested in Salah and Michael Edwards was the one who convinced the manager to sign the player. City appointed Txiki Begiristain specifically to work with Guardiola due to their previous relationship. There's nothing tangible in the slightest to suggest United have a vision from the hierarchy because the fundamental differences between managerial appointments show it. The model of the manager dictating the teams direction has repetitively failed as its not sustainable but it's one we are witnessing again under the current manager. This is also not a criticism of the manager its critical of the club's structure and individuals within those positions.
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Agreed. The fact that Ten Hag is doing a good job doesn't change the fact that it's a sub-optimal way to run a club.
 
Redstain said:
That's nonsense because United never played played a high press under Solskjaer they absorbed pressure and was a team that was more dependent on transitions.

It's nothing but imaginative speculation to assume that Murtough's vision corresponded with what you have mentioned. In fact there's an interview on the United site where ETH is the one outlining the long term vision not his superiors: https://www.manutd.com/en/news/deta...or-manchester-united-in-fans-media-conference.

The scouting infrastructure was changed ahead of ETH appointment so its obvious the targets that were demanded were his recommendations more than the clubs. There's also minimalistic comparison with Liverpool and City, for instance Klopp was disinterested in Salah and Michael Edwards was the one who convinced the manager to sign the player. City appointed Txiki Begiristain specifically to work with Guardiola due to their previous relationship. There's nothing tangible in the slightest to suggest United have a vision from the hierarchy because the fundamental differences between managerial appointments show it. The model of the manager dictating the teams direction has repetitively failed as its not sustainable but it's one we are witnessing again under the current manager. This is also not a criticism of the manager its critical of the club's structure and individuals within those positions.
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Lots of truth in your post, but I also think it's worth pointing out that Murtough was only appointed Director of Football in 2021. He was also, supposedly, behind the push to get EtH instead of Conte and Pochettino.

I think it's probably way too early to conclude whether he has some kind of 'vision' for the club, but I'm also not sure it's fair to attribute the previous appointments with him. There was obviously some very unjoined up thinking in the Woodward days, and even though Murtough was around then he was in a different role, probably not with the influence to make the changes.

So far it certainly seems to be moving in the right direction. For all the criticism that we're only going for players that the manager knows/has worked with, they do at least all fit the profile of what most successful modern teams are looking for. Perhaps there is just a chance that part of that is because the manager, whom Murtough appointed, shares that vision and so his targets overlap with what the club also wants to see from it's transfers from now on?
 
RedOrange said:
People confused by your posts because we all watched Eriksen drop deep to help with the buildup and start attacks last year.
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He kind of did, and the Cafe is still obsessed about getting the midfielder that will drive the ball from defense to attack so I guess Eriksen isn't the answer here (no surprise really). Not sure Mount is the answer really, but I do think we will be doing a lot of buildup from the back via Martinez/Varane/Shaw. I think it's quite a unique trait and doesn't seem Mount strength so that's a good setup.
 
Crimson King said:
Lots of truth in your post, but I also think it's worth pointing out that Murtough was only appointed Director of Football in 2021. He was also, supposedly, behind the push to get EtH instead of Conte and Pochettino.

I think it's probably way too early to conclude whether he has some kind of 'vision' for the club, but I'm also not sure it's fair to attribute the previous appointments with him. There was obviously some very unjoined up thinking in the Woodward days, and even though Murtough was around then he was in a different role, probably not with the influence to make the changes.

So far it certainly seems to be moving in the right direction. For all the criticism that we're only going for players that the manager knows/has worked with, they do at least all fit the profile of what most successful modern teams are looking for. Perhaps there is just a chance that part of that is because the manager, whom Murtough appointed, shares that vision and so his targets overlap with what the club also wants to see from it's transfers from now on?
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I am certain that Ten Hag was hired to bring a footballing vision and philosophy to the club - an identity. It's not Murtoughs vision that ETH shares. Murtough went shopping for one. The absence of one post Fergie was at the root of so many of our bad decisions. When ETH eventually leaves, his replacement will be hired in line with his kind of philosophy That's my bet.
 
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Borys said:
He kind of did, and the Cafe is still obsessed about getting the midfielder that will drive the ball from defense to attack so I guess Eriksen isn't the answer here (no surprise really). Not sure Mount is the answer really, but I do think we will be doing a lot of buildup from the back via Martinez/Varane/Shaw. I think it's quite a unique trait and doesn't seem Mount strength so that's a good setup.
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No, the Caf is obsessed about getting the midfield connector because Eriksen is 31 and has a dicky ticker so he can barely play 60 minutes. Our next best option was Fred, who is about as press resistant as a starched shirt. The most important skill is being able to recieve the ball and quickly turn and move it on by passing or dribbling it, which we know Mount can do, because he does it all the time higher up the pitch.
 
Onana is a signing which elevates United to a new level. It may sound like hyperbole but it effectively allows us to play as a unit higher up the pitch.
 
nickm said:
I am certain that Ten Hag was hired to bring a footballing vision and philosophy to the club - an identity. It's not Murtoughs vision that ETH shares. Murtough went shopping for one. The absence of one post Fergie was at the root of so many of our bad decisions. When ETH eventually leaves, his replacement will be hired in line with his kind of philosophy That's my bet.
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It wouldnt surprise me if TH becomes the DOF or a role similar if successful, when he has perhaps reached 65. We should have moved on with different owners by then (fingers crossed).
 
Borys said:
He kind of did, and the Cafe is still obsessed about getting the midfielder that will drive the ball from defense to attack so I guess Eriksen isn't the answer here (no surprise really). Not sure Mount is the answer really, but I do think we will be doing a lot of buildup from the back via Martinez/Varane/Shaw. I think it's quite a unique trait and doesn't seem Mount strength so that's a good setup.
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I replied to this already but here's what Mount can do when the ball is passed to him. This mostly shows him doing it further up the pitch but it's the exact same skill. He's better than Eriksen at this, and it's why I think Mount will be dropping down a fair bit to help progress the ball. He'll come deep, receive the ball on the half turn, start a quick attack or just lay it off to a wide player while everyone moves into position to attack a deep block. When they're set up he can sit in the half spaces and do the same thing to get in on goal.

I also think in matches against weaker teams (or if we're chasing goals late in matches in general) we could put Mount and Eriksen together with Bruno in front. When we've set up against a low block, Eriksen stays back to be the deeper playmaker, Mount and Bruno move up and fill the gaps between the striker and wingers and Eriksen can just pass the ball through whichever gap in the defence looks the most vulnerable.
 
NLunited said:
The number 6 plus two 10s idea is speculation. Probably it will be more like last season with Mount taking Eriksen‘s role.
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It's pretty much how we generally set up last season when we have both Eriksen and Bruno starting imo. Not exactly two #10 but I'd say two hybrid #8. When we attack they're two #10 when we defend they're two #8. Of course there's also a lot of tweaks and changes depending on the opponent.

People usually think Bruno played as a #10 last season because it was his default position in the previous seasons. But last season Bruno was not exactly a #10. He no longer make a lot of runs into the box like before and covered a shitload of ground up, down, left and right basically everywhere every matches. He's actually more of a #8 than a #10. Pretty much would be said with Eriksen except he didn't have the legs to cover the ground especially after his injury.

Agree Mount will replace Eriksen. Imo we'd probably get better as Mount simply could cover a lot more of ground than Erkisen. He's also faster and a better dribbler as well imo. I don't watch him much so no idea about his passing though. Might be not as good as Eriksen imo.
 
I thought I saw him in David Lloyd. But then again he looked too bulked up. Wonder if anyone else has seen him there?
 
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