Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

Status
Not open for further replies.
If we beat Fulham on Sunday we will end the season on 75 points.

Only once in the entire history of the Premier League has a team with 75 points failed to get top four so it’s a pretty shit argument to be honest. In the huge majority of seasons it gets you 3rd.
We scored 56 goals after 37 games in EPL
Last season when we were absolute shit we had 57 after 38.
I very much doubt we'd have finished top 4 if either Liverpool or Chelsea weren't so shit this season.
If we don't get proper signings next season is gonna be another 50/50 chance of us not making top 4.
 
Ahh yes, I am the one posting nonsense?

Out of the 13 trophies won you’ve listed, only two were won by the team that finished first in that season. Which is exactly what I stated.



Yep, anywhere near the top means top apparently. If you meant top, why didn't you say it?

Also, I was talking nonsense but clearly you twist facts to suit your agenda... 2 were won by the team finished 1st?

City won the league cup 3 in a row, Liverpool won the cups finishing 1 point behind City... but ofcourse 1 points is miles of top.
This is just pure bilge at this stage. Makes no sense in the context of what was originally discussed, has totally confused what point both of us were making, and I suggest you call it a day.
 
That’s a pretty insane stat that, no wonder we looked absolutely dead on our feet and have only picked up again recently after the cup matches stopped.

Have a look at Bruno for example, you can see he is running on empty. Luckily, there is no international competition this summer and all our players will come back refreshed.
 
We scored 56 goals after 37 games in EPL
Last season when we were absolute shit we had 57 after 38.
I very much doubt we'd have finished top 4 if either Liverpool or Chelsea weren't so shit this season.

Goals matters not, points matter and your arguing a 32/1 shot here man.
I’ll say it again, only once in the entire history of the league has 75 points failed to make top 4.

Chelsea are utter fecking shite and many years don’t make 75 points. The last time they managed it was 7 seasons ago.
It’s an absolutely shite argument.

So yeah, if Chelsea had their best season in 7 years and Liverpool weren’t so shit, then we’d be 5th.
Oh, and Arsenal and Chelsea would both have had to have their best seasons simultaneously in 7 years for that to happen.
You realise how stupid that sounds?
 
Goals matters not, points matter and your arguing a 32/1 shot here man.
I’ll say it again, only once in the entire history of the league has 75 points failed to make top 4.

Chelsea are utter fecking shite and many years don’t make 75 points.
It’s an absolutely shite argument.
How many times does it happen that 2 top 4 teams - one of them even being title challengers for the last couple of years to have such bad seasons?
 
How many times does it happen that 2 top 4 teams - one of them even being title challengers for the last couple of years to have such bad seasons?

Chelsea haven’t made 75 points for 7 years, what’s your point? If they suddenly became really good again in the same year Arsenal suddenly became really good again we’d be 5th?
Neither of those sides has made 75 points since seven seasons ago.

It’s so daft.

The stats over 32 Premier League seasons tell us clearly that if you stick 75 points on the board, you make top four.
It doesn’t then matter how many daft arguments you want to make about several teams all being the best version of themselves in 7 seasons. Soon you’ll be saying “if Leicester were as good as they were in 2016”.
Chelsea just don’t regularly put 75 points on the board, even under Abramovich. That version of Chelsea left us a long time ago.

So rather than pretending to @Pogue Mahone that we’ve been “lucky“ that Chelsea and Liverpool had bad seasons, you should instead realise that if we had achieved 75 points and missed out on top four because both Chelsea and Arsenal simultaneously had their best seasons in seven years whilst both City and Liverpool were also good, missing out on CL with 75 points for the only the second time in PL history, we’d have in fact been outrageously unlucky.
 
Last edited:
Perhaps Timber could be that missing piece at RB?
Possibly because timber is very good in progressing the ball and playing from the back when being pressed, it’s also having timber means he can cover two positions (CB and RB), which means we can sell maguire and one right back without buying two players as replacement. But we also need a ball playing keeper.
 
That’s a pretty insane stat that, no wonder we looked absolutely dead on our feet and have only picked up again recently after the cup matches stopped.

Not only that, we've looked a lot slicker in our passing and general build up play. It's exciting to see what Ten Hag can do with a more manageable schedule next season as well as pre-season.
 
Matches played since the world cup

United 39
Brighton 29
Liverpool 29
Newcastle 28
Arsenal 27
Tottenham 27

People might try to convince themselves that us playing at least 10 games more than everyone around us is insignificant, but in reality that is 10 midweeks this year that we haven't been able to adequately rest and prepare between matches, while our main competitors could. Anyone who refuses to add that context to this type of discussion just isn't worth engaging with.
Hear, hear.
 
The differences in opinion on how well he's done this season are staggering.

This time last year we all knew exactly what a mess this squad was in. Then we lost to Brighton and 4-0 at Brentford. Since then we've won 40 out of 58 football matches, securing CL football and a trophy, and are in another final.

For me it's a fantastic achievement. I can't really understand how anyone could think otherwise

The differences in opinion are because it has been a really strange season.

Some things simply don't make sense.

E.g:

De Gea having the most clean sheets even though he's been very up and down and as a team we always look vulnerable.

Great home record, rubbish away record. The home record and then the away record against top 9 is so bizarre.

Some good results but some absolute disasters.

Even yesterday's game, the result is brilliant but Chelsea outplayed us on almost all metrics.

The whole season has been a weird, contradictory one. A strange one that ultimately has turned out pretty good considering.
 
I generally about the reason but still those numbers you pulled up show big difference tbh.

Arsenal for half a season has presented a level which we've not achieved apart from some isolated games/half games. However, they can only do small tweaks to their team, while we have very clear pain points - solving them will elevate us to their level hopefully. So I'm not fussed about them.

I agree. I would go as far as to suggest that this remains the main reason for someone to still have reservations about the project or to be mildly concerned. Not the drama and the agenda driven posts from people who would drink the piss of two specific previous managers and they would try to convince you it's the finest beer they've ever tasted. But i feel there's a discussion to be had about our progress and how we're going to move forward, and some posters who raise some interesting points.

Anyway, that's the thing. Even with some hiccups on the road, you could see Klopp's ceiling as early as the first half of 16/17. They couldn't sustain it yet, but you could tell that, when they got going, they could blow teams away. It never quite felt the same with us under any manager in the post-SAF era. I'm not talking solely about the results. The performances just weren't convincing. Not under Mourinho, when we got our highest points tally since SAF, not during the good runs under Solskjaer, not this season, either.

This, i feel, is also why Arteta gets a lot of slack despite Arsenal's poor form lately. It's true that they're overachieving, but, when they were good, they looked like the real deal. They way the pushed us back at the Emirates and chased the third goal was total domination. We'll see how they'll cope next season. It's interesting that Arteta said that their performances were "way ahead of schedule" this season. And they can also improve. For example, i think Rice can be a huge signing for them.
 
We scored 56 goals after 37 games in EPL
Last season when we were absolute shit we had 57 after 38.
I very much doubt we'd have finished top 4 if either Liverpool or Chelsea weren't so shit this season.
If we don't get proper signings next season is gonna be another 50/50 chance of us not making top 4.
Why did you ignore everything he just said?

75 points gets you top 4 basically every season.

By your logic every time a team has ever finished top 4 it's because the other contenders were shit. You're always relying on other teams being worse than you to achieve your goals.

To win the league you're relying on your rivals to lose games unless you get 112 points. Same with any top 4 race, you're relying on your rivals to drop points.
 
Almost all metrics? We had more shots we scored more goals, created more chances and their goalkeeper made more saves.

Is all metrics now “possession”?

I think it's whatever metric allows them to moan the most.

The absolute state of a few posters here after we confirmed CL and have a cup final to look forward to is ridiculous.
 
Matches played since the world cup

United 39
Brighton 29
Liverpool 29
Newcastle 28
Arsenal 27
Tottenham 27

People might try to convince themselves that us playing at least 10 games more than everyone around us is insignificant, but in reality that is 10 midweeks this year that we haven't been able to adequately rest and prepare between matches, while our main competitors could. Anyone who refuses to add that context to this type of discussion just isn't worth engaging with.
I think we have to ask ourselves why are some so-called United fans trying so hard to argue that we haven't had a disproportionately packed schedule compared to all of our rivals apart from City, who have still played a few less than us? I mean, it is like arguing that black is white to try to say that all those extra miles run, all those days spent in recovery rather than out on the training pitch, all those additional injuries, do not make a significant difference. Why would United fans tie themselves in knots trying to argue this? I can only conclude that they are either oppo fans in disguise, or fans who cared more about one of our ex-managers than they do about the club.
 
Why did you ignore everything he just said?

75 points gets you top 4 basically every season.

By your logic every time a team has ever finished top 4 it's because the other contenders were shit. You're always relying on other teams being worse than you to achieve your goals.

To win the league you're relying on your rivals to lose games unless you get 112 points. Same with any top 4 race, you're relying on your rivals to drop points.

It’s absolutely bizarre, he’s using an example to show us being lucky, despite the statistics over 32 seasons showing that scenario would actually make us one of the most unlucky teams ever in the league.

His basic argument is:

“Look just how lucky we are, we could have been one of the most unlucky teams ever, but fortunately for ETH, the season panned out like 31 of the previous 32 Premier League seasons”.
 
Last edited:
Almost all metrics? We had more shots we scored more goals, created more chances and their goalkeeper made more saves.

Is all metrics now “possession”?

Yeah that's what I was thinking, not sure which metrics they dominated except Possession.

We absolutely killed them creating chances for fun, one of the easiest games we had this season.
 
Anyone who watched that game last night and thought Chelsea were the better team need to give their fecking head a wobble.
 
Matches played since the world cup

United 39
Brighton 29
Liverpool 29
Newcastle 28
Arsenal 27
Tottenham 27

People might try to convince themselves that us playing at least 10 games more than everyone around us is insignificant, but in reality that is 10 midweeks this year that we haven't been able to adequately rest and prepare between matches, while our main competitors could. Anyone who refuses to add that context to this type of discussion just isn't worth engaging with.

Good post. We barely had a mid-week break, on top of that Ronaldo saga for half season, Martial ever injured and Weghorst leading the line. Considering all that this was very good season.

Hopefully we will win FA Cup to make it even better.
 
I believe we don’t just sign Mount but also we might sign rabiot.

And if we sign Mason Mount, I believe there will be changing of tactic next season. And this is mainly because ten Hag and the scouting teams couldn’t find a deep-playmaker that has similar profile as FDJ (Someone with press resistance who can be ball carrier and progressive passer). Instead of playing with 4231 double pivot, ETH might play 433 with one no 6 and two no 8. We see this changing formation in his Ajax team when FDJ left.

The following below is when Ajax had the possession and start their build up play vs Dortmund in 2021/2022 season. You can see that Gravenberch is nowhere near in Ajax build up play phase to progress the ball. It‘s the keeper, two CB, a DM, and the two full backs the ones who got involved in this and if ETH uses this same system then we will rely on those 6 positions to retain possession or recycle the ball. Among these 6 players, Alvarez is the one being assigned to play more simple passes and doesn’t get involved on the ball often (see below stats), this suitable to Casemiro who is not a press resistance so I think we will see a different role in Casemiro next season in comparison to this season.

I think our build up and attacking transition will be something like this:

GK
Varane Martinez
Casemiro
RB —————— Shaw
Antony - Mount - Bruno - Rashford
ST​

Bruno and Mount will play in Berghuis and Gravenberch role. Our full backs will cover the half space and sometime swap position with the wingers. Mount will be perfect to play in this set up and system because we will get to utilise his strength to do high press, scoring goals and assists.

7-FE97-F7-C-2-EB9-4417-B45-D-57-D48-C5071-EB.jpg


840382-EF-AB98-4114-9-D4-A-98-E612-E31-D27.png


I took pictures of these FBref end of last season so this is based on 21/22 season.

42-F271-CB-166-F-445-D-916-D-F3516-E6-FD8-D8.jpg

Excellent post. In your scenario Frimpong wouldn't work though as the RB.

Bottomline for me is Casemiro needs more support in advancing possession and against the ball.
 
Excellent post. In your scenario Frimpong wouldn't work though as the RB.

Bottomline for me is Casemiro needs more support in advancing possession and against the ball.
Yeah I don’t think Frimpong is suitable with the inverted right back role.
 
The differences in opinion are because it has been a really strange season.

Some things simply don't make sense.

E.g:

De Gea having the most clean sheets even though he's been very up and down and as a team we always look vulnerable.

Great home record, rubbish away record. The home record and then the away record against top 9 is so bizarre.

Some good results but some absolute disasters.

Even yesterday's game, the result is brilliant but Chelsea outplayed us on almost all metrics.

The whole season has been a weird, contradictory one. A strange one that ultimately has turned out pretty good considering.

Re: De Gea - maybe people are just getting caught up in all of the talk about his distribution. Its a problem, yes, but it isn't the disaster train so many have jumped on

Re: Chelsea game (and some others) - people underestimate how often we are happy to let others have the ball because we like the spaces it opens up. We could have scored 10 goals yesterday

Our away record isn't all that weird either. Away matches against the toughest opponents are the hardest to win. None of them got anything from Old Trafford either.
 
Possibly because timber is very good in progressing the ball and playing from the back when being pressed, it’s also having timber means he can cover two positions (CB and RB), which means we can sell maguire and one right back without buying two players as replacement. But we also need a ball playing keeper.

Could be interesting, I think Timber fits that inverted RB role perfectly despite not actually playing it in that Ajax team.

The fact that we’ve seen new rumours of Wan-Bissaka up for sale and Dalot contract talks going well, makes me think ETH wants to implement that system and doesn’t see AWB as capable/prefers Dalots versatility.
 
I think we have to ask ourselves why are some so-called United fans trying so hard to argue that we haven't had a disproportionately packed schedule compared to all of our rivals apart from City, who have still played a few less than us? I mean, it is like arguing that black is white to try to say that all those extra miles run, all those days spent in recovery rather than out on the training pitch, all those additional injuries, do not make a significant difference. Why would United fans tie themselves in knots trying to argue this? I can only conclude that they are either oppo fans in disguise, or fans who cared more about one of our ex-managers than they do about the club.

It's a dirty word on here for some reason, but there are a lot of glory hunters in our fanbase. They chose United because we were the best, and they support winning more than they do United. They'll never be happy until we are dominant, because that's what they signed up to.
 
It's a dirty word on here for some reason, but there are a lot of glory hunters in our fanbase. They chose United because we were the best, and they support winning more than they do United. They'll never be happy until we are dominant, because that's what they signed up to.
Find me a supporter of any club who doesn't want their club to improve. Whether the club is at the top or the bottom every supporter on every message board discusses ways to improve the team.

Labelling everyone who wants us to be better as a glory hunter is lazy and just another form of trying to shut up anyone with concerns.

I've been supportive of Ten Hag all season, I think he's great. But clearly there is plenty of room for improvement. People should be able to voice that opinion without being jumped on for not simply saying everything is fantastic bevause we managed to finished top 4
 
It's a dirty word on here for some reason, but there are a lot of glory hunters in our fanbase. They chose United because we were the best, and they support winning more than they do United. They'll never be happy until we are dominant, because that's what they signed up to.
Incisive analysis. Obviously, most other fanbases are made of people supporting their clubs because of their moral values and ability to win ethical arguments.
 
Find me a supporter of any club who doesn't want their club to improve. Whether the club is at the top or the bottom every supporter on every message board discusses ways to improve the team.

Labelling everyone who wants us to be better as a glory hunter is lazy and just another form of trying to shut up anyone with concerns.

I've been supportive of Ten Hag all season, I think he's great. But clearly there is plenty of room for improvement. People should be able to voice that opinion without being jumped on for not simply saying everything is fantastic bevause we managed to finished top 4

What you've just described isn't the target audience of my post. It's the relentless moaners and the ones who search for faults to be annoyed about. There are many of them on here. It's pretty obvious to separate the ones who are bitter about the fact we aren't the dominant team anymore
 
As well as the World Cup and the ludicrous amount of games we’ve played, it shows tremendous navigation and adaptation if nothing else.

This is him utilising a squad that doesn’t fit with his ideals at all, which lends intrigue to what would or could happen with a superfluous squad of interchangeable players that doesn’t rely on any one component to function.
Agreed.

During and after preseason hopes were raised about the team potentially being more proactive with and without the ball. And we went into the new season with the same approach, where we tried playing out from the back and it back fired due to the longstanding weaknesses that have been present for many years. And to ten Hag's credit, he realised quickly that he had to abandon the original plan and adapt himself to the tools at his disposal and hence we defended deeper and relied on transitions to score goals. And the deeper block meant we were defensively solid and due to the number of players occupying positions in our own half. And it's why ten Hag credited the whole team for getting the golden glove and not just the keeper due to him placing more emphasis on defence rather than offence, for obvious reasons.



And the next step imo is to develop the team further so we can play through the press in possession, aswell as defend on the front foot. And defending on the front foot effectively will allow us to pin teams in their own half as long as we can play through the press in possession. So recruitment has to be centred around that, and signing players that will allow us to control the game in possession aswell as defend from the front effectively will be key to changing the whole dynamic of the team.

For me he's done a fantastic job and it's about backing the idea of the man and not just backing the man blindly. Because the idea has to be centred around a proactive attacking idea in the current EPL if we're to challenge the likes of Guardiola, Klopp, Arteta etc on a consistent basis. And the aforementioned managers have implemented a proactive attacking approach with good to great success.
 
What you've just described isn't the target audience of my post. It's the relentless moaners and the ones who search for faults to be annoyed about. There are many of them on here. It's pretty obvious to separate the ones who are bitter about the fact we aren't the dominant team anymore
That's why I separate people in to 2 groups, fans and supporters, the latter, as a general rule are supportive and critical in a constructive way, nothing wrong with that
 
Re: De Gea - maybe people are just getting caught up in all of the talk about his distribution. Its a problem, yes, but it isn't the disaster train so many have jumped on

Re: Chelsea game (and some others) - people underestimate how often we are happy to let others have the ball because we like the spaces it opens up. We could have scored 10 goals yesterday

Our away record isn't all that weird either. Away matches against the toughest opponents are the hardest to win. None of them got anything from Old Trafford either.
To be fair I'm not sure possession was the major concern against Chelsea. Countering worked. It was how easily we were letting them progress into dangerous situations with little pressure on the ball in the first half. I wouldn't say we were fortunate in that half because ultimately chance conversion isn't luck, but it was concerning from a defensive point of view. But if we are to criticise that it's only fair to praise the manager for addressing it at half time.
 
We scored 56 goals after 37 games in EPL
Last season when we were absolute shit we had 57 after 38.
I very much doubt we'd have finished top 4 if either Liverpool or Chelsea weren't so shit this season.
If we don't get proper signings next season is gonna be another 50/50 chance of us not making top 4.
How does it make it any difference when we did put in 72 and maybe 75. 75 points on any season would mean top 4 is a guarantee, doesn't matter how good or bad other teams are. If Liverpool were good that would have meant Arsenal or Newcastle could have suffered.

Speaking of bad luck, ETH was equally unlucky that he had to deal with ronaldo issue and play with a burnley reject as his number 9. He has been unfortunate with the fixture congestions and injury to key players. Casemiro getting suspended before key games is also a bad luck.

So to say ETH is just lucky to be in top 4 just because Chelsea didn't bother to turn up or Liverpool woke up late is an injustice to the work he has done.
 
If we beat Fulham on Sunday we will end the season on 75 points.

Only once in the entire history of the Premier League has a team with 75 points failed to get top four so it’s a pretty shit argument to be honest. The stats say that it’s 32/1 shot you miss out on top 4 with that record.

In the huge majority of seasons it gets you 3rd.

That's not right.

In 13-14 Arsenal were 4th with 79 points and in 16-17 Liverpool were 4th with 76 points. Also in 17-18 Liverpool were 4th with 75 points (GD of 46, so we wouldn't be 4th that season either)

Having said that your point stands. Other teams performances are irrelevant to our points total. And vast majority of seasons 75 will get you top 4. Even 72.
 
We scored 56 goals after 37 games in EPL
Last season when we were absolute shit we had 57 after 38.
I very much doubt we'd have finished top 4 if either Liverpool or Chelsea weren't so shit this season.
If we don't get proper signings next season is gonna be another 50/50 chance of us not making top 4.

Let's see if you reply to this.

Other teams performances are irrelevant to our points total. And a total of 75 points is enough for top 4 in the vast majority of seasons. Even 72.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.