Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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AshRK said:
This. People compare us to Brighton and Newcastle when they have played very little in comparison to us. If we had no europe we would be comfortably in 3rd spot with 70 odd points.
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The issue I have with this is that even earlier in the season we very rarely produced performances where we were good over two halves of a game.

Even though the squad has issues we clearly should be better than Brighton and Newcastle based on our current squads. It's easy to see Newcastle getting a lot better next year though, and I would also expect a bug improvement from liverpool
 
Matt851 said:
The issue I have with this is that even earlier in the season we very rarely produced performances where we were good over two halves of a game.

Even though the squad has issues we clearly should be better than Brighton and Newcastle based on our current squads. It's easy to see Newcastle getting a lot better next year though, and I would also expect a bug improvement from liverpool
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I don't think we were bad from December end to February. We played some slick football and won a trophy and beat Barca as well. We looked a confident side. It is since the league cup win we have looked deflated.

You say Newcastle will get better next season, what makes you think we won't?
 
AshRK said:
I don't think we were bad from December end to February. We played some slick football and won a trophy and beat Barca as well. We looked a confident side. It is since the league cup win we have looked deflated.

You say Newcastle will get better next season, what makes you think we won't?
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I think we will but question if we will improve as much as Newcastle or Liverpool. Newcastle have a structure in place to make good transfers, we don't, they also don't necessarily have the same ffp or budget restrictions
 
His biggest miscalculations were going all in for the Europa and signing Weghorst otherwise he was doing as well as could be expected given where we were coming from. I wont blame him much for the Antony mistake, he clearly trusts him and in glimpses you can actually see the player he will become if it all comes together for him but that wasn't worth £80m and doing it at the expense of a DLP/completely rebuilding our CM.

One of the factors people are ignoring is the excessive amount of games we have played which have led to injuries and fatigue. The loss of Martinez and Varane robbed us of three players: we lost the CBs and then lost another key cog in our deep build up play architecture - Shaw. We practically limping to the end of the season and if City are on their A game I fear what they could do to us in the final.

We should see an improvement without too many midweek games from here on in.
 
Think people are forgetting how well we played for large swathes of the season. It was virtually the first time since Fergie that there looked to be an actual plan, a level of cohesion to us. Even the good run under Ole was predicated more on counter attacks and outrageous comebacks than real control.

ETH's tactics clearly aren't the issue. But it is at least moderately concerning that he can't seem to get these players up for the second half recently. A managers job is as much about motivation as it is anything else at this level.

As easy as it is to point how experienced this team is and that they shoudl be self-motivating - we all have seen enough squads crumble to know that managers make a huge difference.

Hopefully a full week of training for a specific match - something we've literally not had this year - should help.
 
I'd say the period between the spurs match at home and the League cup final was one of the best periods for us as fans that we've had in the post fergie years, together with Ole's caretaker reign and maybe those 3 successive victories under LVG (yeah i know, but it was pretty cool to be fair :lol: . Juanfield and all).
 
hobbers said:
That's the old 'finding excuses for an incompetent manager' spiel that was rubbish with previous managers and still now. Doesn't take 3 or 4 years to make a team consistent and competitive. Not with the finances we have.

ETH deserves two more transfer windows but if we dont have a team looking like a cemented top 3 and CL-worthy after that then it's because he is failing.
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Didn't it take Pep and Klopp a few years to get to a point where they were consistent in challenging for top honors?

We've also got players from previous regimes that may not suite Ten Hag's way of playing. De Gea is terrible in the build up phase. Harry is Harry. There's Jones that's a permanent sick note. That's 3 players that we can replace. I'm sure this season the manager will know who he can and cannont trust to play the way he wants to.
Add in the fact there's the cloud hanging over the club regarding a potential sale which may or may not go through.

This all is going to delay the progress of getting a team that's consistent enough.
 
kouroux said:
Deep down I know you're right, I just hate how I feel right now.
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We saw glimpses of what a Ten Hag United looks like firing on all cylinders earlier in the season. We just need to play like that more consistently and upgrade in some positions and we'll be good. I feel we are making some progress and that's enough for me. Have stated many times in the past. Just make steady progress and we'll get to City and Liverpools level.
 
Waynne said:
Didn't it take Pep and Klopp a few years to get to a point where they were consistent in challenging for top honors?
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It depends on the definition of a ‘few’ and ‘consistent’ but probably not.

Pep: got third in his first season, won the EPL title in every season except 2019/2020 after that and a few other trophies along with at least 1 UCL final.

Klopp: fourth on his first complete season, UCL final on his second, 97 points (but ultimately finishing second) on his second season and won UCL, won the EPL title on next season, 3rd in the next season, 2nd with 90+ points and UCL finalists last year.
 
Waynne said:
We saw glimpses of what a Ten Hag United looks like firing on all cylinders earlier in the season. We just need to play like that more consistently and upgrade in some positions and we'll be good. I feel we are making some progress and that's enough for me. Have stated many times in the past. Just make steady progress and we'll get to City and Liverpools level.
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Agreed. Reasonable analysis. We're not chelsea ffs.
 
Waynne said:
Didn't it take Pep and Klopp a few years to get to a point where they were consistent in challenging for top honors?

We've also got players from previous regimes that may not suite Ten Hag's way of playing. De Gea is terrible in the build up phase. Harry is Harry. There's Jones that's a permanent sick note. That's 3 players that we can replace. I'm sure this season the manager will know who he can and cannont trust to play the way he wants to.
Add in the fact there's the cloud hanging over the club regarding a potential sale which may or may not go through.

This all is going to delay the progress of getting a team that's consistent enough.
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Pep took over a very good team already has to be said, but still only finished 3rd with 78 points in his first season and miles behind Chelsea. Then won the title two years in a row.

Klopp took over a Liverpool side with a ton of deadwood. 4th in his first full season. Final of the champions league in his second full season.

That's the rate of progress we have to demand. Any top manager can revolutionise a squad and playing style in the space of two years/4 transfer windows.
 
hobbers said:
Pep took over a very good team already has to be said, but still only finished 3rd with 78 points in his first season and miles behind Chelsea. Then won the title two years in a row.

Klopp took over a Liverpool side with a ton of deadwood. 4th in his first full season. Final of the champions league in his second full season.

That's the rate of progress we have to demand. Any top manager can revolutionise a squad and playing style in the space of two years/4 transfer windows.
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I hope we can do the same.

I'm just being cautious to expect too much too soon. Otherwise who would be an alternative to Ten Hag if he's not upto the job if given enough time.
 
hobbers said:
Pep took over a very good team already has to be said, but still only finished 3rd with 78 points in his first season and miles behind Chelsea. Then won the title two years in a row.

Klopp took over a Liverpool side with a ton of deadwood. 4th in his first full season. Final of the champions league in his second full season.

That's the rate of progress we have to demand. Any top manager can revolutionise a squad and playing style in the space of two years/4 transfer windows.
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The thing about that first Pep season is that they were also 3 points away from fifth place - after signing eight first team players that summer. He won the league the following season after they spurlged the cash on a further six first team players.

Klopp's football in his first season was absolutely dire. It wasn't until he was able to sell the deadwood and bring in the players that fit his style that they became a force.

We finally have a manager that has proven to rebuild a squad into European heavyweights, can man-manage and motivate a team that have downed tools for three of his predecessors, and yet there's folk saying he needs to be let go so we have to start the whole rebuilding phase from the beginning again. Eventually we have to shit or get off the kettle and let someone have a chance to carry out their project.
 
Let him train our players and then maybe we will see a better style implemented. Cannot implement by playing every other day.
 
I feel that the number of games in a condensed manner has impacted our team’s growth in how we play.

There is simply no way of working on systems and play style. The only way the team progresses is if the staff show them what is wrong from the previous match, and then ask them to implement changes in the next game. This is trial and error which is not efficient and costs us games.

You can quote me on this in our next game, you will see a difference!
 
AshRK said:
I don't think we were bad from December end to February. We played some slick football and won a trophy and beat Barca as well. We looked a confident side. It is since the league cup win we have looked deflated.

You say Newcastle will get better next season, what makes you think we won't?
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True. The decline in form actually started one or two games before the league cup final. Our match schedule congestion has been extremely severe. Ridiculous.
 
DownRiver said:
I feel that the number of games in a condensed manner has impacted our team’s growth in how we play.

There is simply no way of working on systems and play style. The only way the team progresses is if the staff show them what is wrong from the previous match, and then ask them to implement changes in the next game. This is trial and error which is not efficient and costs us games.

You can quote me on this in our next game, you will see a difference!
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OK will hold you to that on Saturday
 
Berbaclass said:
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I can understand this and perhaps it’s a reason why I feel he should not be made captain when Maguire is binned off. I can imagine what a moany little cnut he would be like in the dressing room when the captain should be a composed leader.
 
Mr Pigeon said:
We finally have a manager that has proven to rebuild a squad into European heavyweights, can man-manage and motivate a team that have downed tools for three of his predecessors, and yet there's folk saying he needs to be let go so we have to start the whole rebuilding phase from the beginning again. Eventually we have to shit or get off the kettle and let someone have a chance to carry out their project.
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But we've not looked motivated or well managed since February so of course doubts will appear.
 
This season he has to deal with:
  1. Casemiro getting 2 (questionable) red cards
  2. Eriksen getting injured
  3. Varane and Licha getting injured
  4. Garnacho getting injured (yes I think that was quite a big blow)
  5. Had to loan Wout after Ronaldo left
  6. The squad is still far from his 'squad' despite of arrivals and it affected his decisions I reckon
As a result, several players are playing games more than they can handle (on top of World Cup) leading to burn out. With those problems reduced, we would be sitting higher in the table with more points. I can't think of any other manager that has to deal with that many problems (maybe Potter before he left). Casemiro's red cards was the real rhythm killer for both him and the team considering how reliant on him we were before that. Now obviously we're still good enough to be beating the likes of Westham even with those problems. But you have to see the overall picture to see if the problems he is facing can be fixed with transfers and not purely down to manager's incompetency, that should be the better way of evaluating him if he has a future here. Because regardless of what anyone says, we started the season on one leg and it definitely hampered the progress of the team. Any manager would have struggled starting the season like that.
 
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So much has gone wrong the second half of the season and the overall squad just isn't good enough. This is the same core players, minus Lisandro, Casemiro, Eriksen, and Antony, that has struggled to assert themselves in a 'modern' approach whether it be building up from the back, understanding how to press and counterpress, less reliant on transitions and trying to unlock defenses with smart movement and passes, and having a multi-goal per game average (i.e. at or above 2 goals per game).

We've had 3 consecutive managers who understand what it takes to win major trophies - Jose, Ole, EtH - because they've done it as a manager (Jose, EtH) and as a player at this club under the most successful manager (Ole).

Plainly speaking, it doesn't matter what manager comes in tomorrow or next season if less than 20% of people actually want EtH should be sacked or if new ownership comes in tomorrow and cleans house, the quality of players that are at the club, from the past 3 to 4 years, is extremely average and have punched above their weight, but been unable to sustain anything across more than 2 seasons.

You're only as good as your players and without Lisandro, the backline has been totally shuffled because club captain Maguire is so poor. Since he's been dropped, United's defense has been rather resolute, aside from 2 individual errors directly leading to goals (Shaw and DDG). Yet with the team relying on the current forward players, knowing how prone they are to goal droughts and they aren't the most natural goal scorers, we've suddenly expect them to score 2+ goals a game? They hardly hit the target more than 5 or 6 times per game it seems and that means the conversion rate would have to be 20% (1 goal from 5 shots on target). That's seems extremely high and unfavorable for a team that is not clinical enough nor do they get enough penalties or OG.

EtH has done more than his fair share to put this team in position to pick up points, if not win games. But the 2nd half collapse against Spurs, the lack of finishing and unfortunate handball against Brighton, and then again against West Ham - horrible finishing and bad mistake from David - it's difficult for this team to score goals and give themselves a chance for a full result.

The re-introduction of Garnacho will only help the team and hopefully he can provide another spark, as he's a match winner, which is sorely needed.
 
edcunited1878 said:
So much has gone wrong the second half of the season and the overall squad just isn't good enough. This is the same core players, minus Lisandro, Casemiro, Eriksen, and Antony, that has struggled to assert themselves in a 'modern' approach whether it be building up from the back, understanding how to press and counterpress, less reliant on transitions and trying to unlock defenses with smart movement and passes, and having a multi-goal per game average (i.e. at or above 2 goals per game).

We've had 3 consecutive managers who understand what it takes to win major trophies - Jose, Ole, EtH - because they've done it as a manager (Jose, EtH) and as a player at this club under the most successful manager (Ole).

Plainly speaking, it doesn't matter what manager comes in tomorrow or next season if less than 20% of people actually want EtH should be sacked or if new ownership comes in tomorrow and cleans house, the quality of players that are at the club, from the past 3 to 4 years, is extremely average and have punched above their weight, but been unable to sustain anything across more than 2 seasons.

You're only as good as your players and without Lisandro, the backline has been totally shuffled because club captain Maguire is so poor. Since he's been dropped, United's defense has been rather resolute, aside from 2 individual errors directly leading to goals (Shaw and DDG). Yet with the team relying on the current forward players, knowing how prone they are to goal droughts and they aren't the most natural goal scorers, we've suddenly expect them to score 2+ goals a game? They hardly hit the target more than 5 or 6 times per game it seems and that means the conversion rate would have to be 20% (1 goal from 5 shots on target). That's seems extremely high and unfavorable for a team that is not clinical enough nor do they get enough penalties or OG.

EtH has done more than his fair share to put this team in position to pick up points, if not win games. But the 2nd half collapse against Spurs, the lack of finishing and unfortunate handball against Brighton, and then again against West Ham - horrible finishing and bad mistake from David - it's difficult for this team to score goals and give themselves a chance for a full result.

The re-introduction of Garnacho will only help the team and hopefully he can provide another spark, as he's a match winner, which is sorely needed.
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I think injuries have finally caught up to us. We managed to skate through much of the mid season period without Eriksen, but when you compound that later with Casemiro's absenses, the loss of Garnacho and Martinez (both pivotal contributors), at some point the dam was bound to break, even with Rashford in fine form. I still hold that if you give ETH a relatively healthy squad and another summer of transfers to buy who he wants, that we will contend for every trophy next year.
 
Casemiro was off for a month just recently but somehow injuries have impacted our season when previously when he was actually missing we were winning games. Eriksen was also off for two months, so tiredness really should not be that huge for both of them.

I'd suggest that our performances after the LC have finally caught up to us. We've been smashed in playing style by a huge amount of teams and won some of those games.

But that can happen only so many times before you get stuck in a rut. Our selfishness, lack of structure and worryingly the manager's inability to do anything about that during and between games is the main cause here because we cannot score our way out of an awful performance and we've had plenty of those.
 
Rightnr said:
Casemiro was off for a month just recently but somehow injuries have impacted our season when previously when he was actually missing we were winning games. Eriksen was also off for two months, so tiredness really should not be that huge for both of them.

I'd suggest that our performances after the LC have finally caught up to us. We've been smashed in playing style by a huge amount of teams and won some of those games.

But that can happen only so many times before you get stuck in a rut. Our selfishness, lack of structure and worryingly the manager's inability to do anything about that during and between games is the main cause here because we cannot score our way out of an awful performance and we've had plenty of those.
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UItimately, it all boils down staying healthy. How would we have fared if we kept Martinez, Garnacho, Casemiro, and Martial all available ? Something tells me we would have another 5-10 more points.
 
Rightnr said:
Casemiro was off for a month just recently but somehow injuries have impacted our season when previously when he was actually missing we were winning games. Eriksen was also off for two months, so tiredness really should not be that huge for both of them.

I'd suggest that our performances after the LC have finally caught up to us. We've been smashed in playing style by a huge amount of teams and won some of those games.

But that can happen only so many times before you get stuck in a rut. Our selfishness, lack of structure and worryingly the manager's inability to do anything about that during and between games is the main cause here because we cannot score our way out of an awful performance and we've had plenty of those.
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The manager cannot shoot for the players. These are the same players we've known about for a few years now, specifically Marcus, Martial, Bruno, Sancho, and then recently Antony, Wout.

The team has to continue to play with principles, like passing from the back, higher line, etc. because whenever the players coming into the squad who can do the job at the requisite level, United don't need to make more wholesale changes. There's continuity behind the adjustments and nothing has to be totally new or different. It is the same with Brighton hiring De Zerbi after Potter. Potter created a strong foundation, De Zerbi tweaked it and improved upon it for the most part because there was a level of continuity with players and baseline expectations.

Even bringing on McTominay to shithouse his way through midfield or throughout the pitch would have been beneficial during this time, but he's been injured. Shaw's best position, especially as it relates to this squad is LB. He's an outlet and is an offensive creator from the backline. He's a short term solution at LCB and he's be fairly good, but same thing if United plays Marcus at CF, it's truly not his best position but he's had to cover there because CF has been inadequate. The creative outlet and defensive solidarity and delivery from Shaw at LB is obviously not the same as Dalot. The drive and passing ability of Lisandro and Shaw has been a glaring miss.

Bruno has also been playing with a fecked up ankle and rarely trains, he's on a daily recovery and not been training. Then he's repeatedly gotten the shit kicked out of him during matches and it's no wonder his performances has dwindled off.
 
MUFC OK said:
A United team that can lose 7-0 at anfield highlights a huge issue. It’s a sackable offense for the manager regardless of anything.

Utter disgrace, disinterested players and we suddenly look incapable of winning a game and every bang average club is having their day in the sun against these pansies.
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In recent games we dominated Brighton first half and should have been 2 or 3 up and we were all over West Ham before the De Gea mistake that gave them and their fans the boost they needed.

Ten Hag is not perfect but we’ve made strides this year that none of us expected considering the same questionable players are in and around the squad.

He should have been backed properly in Jan to replace Ronaldo and get a proper new striker in. Not asking for Harry Kane, but someone better than Weghorst and we’d more likely have had to 4 wrapped up by now, if the Glazer’s weren’t so cheap.
 
With or without a change ownership, my hunch is we'd still spend the same amount in each window to meet FFP regulations. We aren't good at selling our players and I don't think that will change with new owners. Also our scouting department might just be the worst in the EPL.
 
DRJosh said:
With or without a change ownership, my hunch is we'd still spend the same amount in each window to meet FFP regulations. We aren't good at selling our players and I don't think that will change with new owners. Also our scouting department might just be the worst in the EPL.
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new regime will need to adopt "fail fast", cant have Martial lingering around for almost a decade if there's no path for him to succeed. (Using him as an example, you can use VDb or anyone as an example)
 
Our squad is far from perfect and severely lacking in many areas. Despite that, EtH found a way to get this squad to play at a good level.
The injuries to Varane & Lisandro have really screwed us. We lost both calmness and passing at the back and then had to shift one of our potent attacking threats in Luke Shaw out of position to compensate for their loss. It has weakened our CB & LB positions and is disastrous for a side which was just scoring enough to win. The amount of pressure we invite on to our reshuffled defence due to bad finishing has caught us and led to dropped points.
 
I want to see a dominating team who are drilled to perfection in build up play and high pressing. And create chances like our peers. Even Brighton and Newcastle build up play better than us with inferior players.

If we are still playing on the counter with Bruno and Rashford hero ball this time next year then ETH will have failed.
 
Loon said:
I can understand this and perhaps it’s a reason why I feel he should not be made captain when Maguire is binned off. I can imagine what a moany little cnut he would be like in the dressing room when the captain should be a composed leader.
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Were you United fan when Keane was playing?
 
I'm fine with being patient. Other managers doing well have either had longer with their squads and longer to have input into what they require in terms of players, or they inherited something that was already working well and for which they didn't need to make sweeping changes.

I think the major concern is even with a squad this big, there's clearly a lack of players he trusts to do what he wants so he's run some players into the ground. Hopefully that can begin to be resolved in the coming window. Then I guess we'll see if it's a trait or something he is just working with.
 
hobbers said:
Pep took over a very good team already has to be said, but still only finished 3rd with 78 points in his first season and miles behind Chelsea. Then won the title two years in a row.

Klopp took over a Liverpool side with a ton of deadwood. 4th in his first full season. Final of the champions league in his second full season.

That's the rate of progress we have to demand. Any top manager can revolutionise a squad and playing style in the space of two years/4 transfer windows.
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While City did finish 3rd, underlying stats already had them as the best team in the league by far. Some even dared to say they played the best football and would possibly dominate in the following seasons, but these remarks were usually laughed at. See how that turned out.

Klopp's Liverpool also didn't have spectacular results at the start, but the impression was that they were better than their record suggested. Then Klopp took them to the levels no one could have expected to reach with that side.

Both these managers have unique combinations of charisma, knowledge and motivational ability at the highest level of football. Their achievements will be hard to replicate for anyone.
 
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I am very concerned with how ETH uses his #9s. I am not sure if agents would want his strikers to play at United.
 
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