Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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bosnian_red said:
Who would you play ahead of Ronaldo with Sancho, Antony and Martial out? Seriously. If you're going to complain, at least look at the whole picture. He isn't catering to him. Ten Hag literally made the big move to bench him right away, take him off when needed, fine and drop him completely for his actions, and he's put Ronaldo in his place. He's playing now because of injuries, that's it.

Van de Beek, yeah I agree, but do you not understand that a manager is going to use his squad and give the guy a chance? He hasn't had a chance under Ten hag before now, and this was the first time where it just worked out that he gets a chance with Bruno being suspended. Ten Hag values Eriksen's build up play, so it made sense Van de Beek getting a chance. He won't get many more I'm sure.

Today, we conceded 0.6 xG total. We were never going to be down 4-0. They scored their first chance after bad defending from Lindelof and a clinical finish, then they scored a screamer, and we found ourselves 2 down within 10 minutes. Then we dominated and played well but had useless attackers today, probably because we had 4 key attackers unavailable.

How was this a "it was coming"? We've had the better of xG in every game for a while now? We hadn't conceded from open play in the 7 previous games? It was defensively "one of those days", and going forward it was a case of not having our starting options. And in addition, we are at a stage where we will quite simply have some off days now and then. Ten Hag has been manager for what, 4 months? Take a breath.
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Mic drop!

Yeah, tough game today and it's hard to rotate players in who are lacking match sharpness, fitness, or are kids. Unfortunately, you have to start Ronaldo and giving him the armband was hopefully a boost to try and get a decent performance out of him.

This is one of those games that got away from him. I think he was struggling to change the game because the bench was limited. You can't bring a midfielder for a midfielder and expect a different result. Maybe Van De Beek was the only questionable starter but, I'm struggling to see who else could've started in place of him and maintained some sort of attacking front.

Villa scored 2 goals from 2 shots with one of them being a free kick on another day those go wide and we can apply better pressure to come away with a different result.

Good experience for ETH to learn further what this squad is about. I'm sure he'll rectify it and choose a different tram or formation next time.
 
Honestly, this result and performance should not come as a surprise to us. Frankly — we are not even close — to being a team, that given all usual obstacles like the schedule and injuries and lack of form, will not have performances like this. Not even close.

In addition, we will have games, in all likelihood longer stints, with much worse performances than this. 100%.

Why? Our game is totally dependent on a limited number of players who we have no backups for. Especially Martinez, Eriksen and Casemiro.

If Martinez does not play the ball from the back-end at a really high level, if Eriksen cannot dictate the play for us, and if Casemiro cannot be the balance player and pass the ball like he does — we are not in any way shape or form capable of playing the way ETH wants us to play. At most, we will be a team that sits deep and counters fairly well. Like we would be back to playing Ole ball. Antony with his wide presence and Varane with his experience at D are also really important.

And I mean, if we are back to playing Ole level of play, with the play of Harry and Lindelof at CB, guys like Fred and McT running the central midfield behind a Bruno — and so forth — we will take some pts. But it won’t be pretty. And it’s players that are awful awful fits for Ten Hag ball.

AND, it can without any single doubt be ruled out that guys like Eriksen and Casemiro can can play in all games and even play at the high consistent level they have so far this season. Three games a week for 5 months. So that Ole level of play is certainly coming (unless we get like 3-4 squad players in January).

We all know how this fan base reacts, how expectations always will be sky high and certain players will be made scapegoats, most won’t be able to handle it and will become depressed, and so forth. But at the same time, the more the expectations can be kept in shack the better.
 
frostbite said:
Garnacho is too young to be playing back to back away games. Ronaldo is too old to be playing back to back away games. VDB is too useless to be playing any games. Perhaps you can get away with one, but all three together is a mistake.

It's okay, ETH made the wrong choices today. He will learn. It is a process.
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Who would you have played?

Other than not trying VDB there are barely any options. Our first team are already fatigued, something has got to give.
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
Who would you have played?

Other than not trying VDB there are barely any options. Our first team are already fatigued, something has got to give.
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Elanga and Fred for Donny and Ronaldo would've given us at least a bit of energy and pressing. Elanga isn't all that, sure, but at least he's a tryer (trier?)
 
baskinginthesun said:
Mic drop!

Yeah, tough game today and it's hard to rotate players in who are lacking match sharpness, fitness, or are kids. Unfortunately, you have to start Ronaldo and giving him the armband was hopefully a boost to try and get a decent performance out of him.

This is one of those games that got away from him. I think he was struggling to change the game because the bench was limited. You can't bring a midfielder for a midfielder and expect a different result. Maybe Van De Beek was the only questionable starter but, I'm struggling to see who else could've started in place of him and maintained some sort of attacking front.

Villa scored 2 goals from 2 shots with one of them being a free kick on another day those go wide and we can apply better pressure to come away with a different result.

Good experience for ETH to learn further what this squad is about. I'm sure he'll rectify it and choose a different tram or formation next time.
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To be honest the only decision I'd complain about today is Ronaldo being captain. Should never be captain for this club after all he's done recently.

But aside from that, it's understandable ideas that just didn't work out, but were forced upon him due to injuries. Not going to complain about a manager waiting until the 60 minute mark instead of making half time subs, not going to complain about trying Van de Beek as a 10 because Bruno was suspended, not going to complain about Ronaldo starting and playing 90 minutes because of all our injuries and game state... So yeah.
 
The way Villa set up, sitting back and hitting on the counter, Eriksen has to play CM and not in the no 10 position, he’s the only one available with that creativity from a deeper position. We should all know by now that Fred is far less effective in that role, Fred’s more all action box to box.
We’ve got to start games a lot sharper and with more intensity, that’s for sure. And we need a no. 9, at least let’s hope Martial can stay fit for a prolonged period after this WC break. The pressing was poor today but that could also be due to fatigue.
We need more signings in defence, midfield and up front. Still loads to do. But there is progress and don’t forget this was only the first defeat in 10.
 
To be fair, if ETH had done the logical thing and rotated vs Sociedad he'd be branded unambitious.

As long as the squad is what it is today was always going to be a very difficult game for us.

Without new faces come January I think we ultimately have to sacrifice our cup runs if we want to get top 4.
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
Who would you have played?

Other than not trying VDB there are barely any options. Our first team are already fatigued, something has got to give.
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Fred or McTominay.

No, ETH made a mistake. The same team won in Spain, so he made no changes. He has done this a few times and it does not work.
 
Look, we have a manager who is building a team the right way. But he is not even remotely getting sufficient support from the management above him in order for us to have high expectations on him over the course of the entirety of this season. When we have a full squad and everyone are somewhat rested/in form — then sure, we should play well, and we have. But when he doesn’t have a healthy squad and/or our some players are a bit out of form/tired, like perhaps Eriksen and Martinez the first 25 min — we can’t even remotely expect that level of play.

Martinez should like at the most play like 80% of our games (give how the schedule looks with 3 games a week). When he doesn’t play, we don’t have a single CB capable of playing like ETH wants his CBs to play.

Eriksen should like at the most play like 66% of our games (give how the schedule looks with 3 games a week). When he doesn’t play, we don’t have a single CM who even remotely can dictate the play with long range passing and smarts the way ETH requires.

Casemiro should like at the most play like 75% of our games (give how the schedule looks with 3 games a week). When he doesn’t play, we don’t have a single CDM who even remotely can be the balance player and who can pass the ball dictate the play the way ETH requires.

And so forth. The same applies to Antony and co. We have no back-up to Antony. We have no real back-up to Darlot. These guys don’t have 55 games in them.

SouthMancRed said:
Manager takes over a sinking ship, does a hell of a lot of good but shows he's not 100% perfect, like everyone else is. We're doomed ah tell ya. Doomed.
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This year? Well we will certainly struggle, but I wouldn’t rule out top 4 to be honest. Chelsea, Tottenham, Liverpool and co will also struggle.

But give ETH 1-2 more years, I think we have as good a shot as anyone else besides Man C to become an established top 2-3 team in this league. The big problem we have right now is that so many players bought by the previous regime are horrible fits for ETH. Like Maguire, AWB, Fred and co. Sancho was a really poor signing.

Rams said:
The way Villa set up, sitting back and hitting on the counter, Eriksen has to play CM and not in the no 10 position, he’s the only one available with that creativity from a deeper position. We should all know by now that Fred is far less effective in that role, Fred’s more all action box to box.
We’ve got to start games a lot sharper and with more intensity, that’s for sure. And we need a no. 9, at least let’s hope Martial can stay fit for a prolonged period after this WC break. The pressing was poor today but that could also be due to fatigue.
We need more signings in defence, midfield and up front. Still loads to do. But there is progress and don’t forget this was only the first defeat in 10.
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100% agree. We just need more ETH players.
 
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Another manager succumbing to Ronaldo's pressure and seeing things go south.

Why on earth would you sacrifice seeing your team showing improvement to indulge some egomaniac diva is beyond me.

It wasn't even 2 weeks ago the team looked like it was about to take another leap with string of consistent good performances yet here we are 4 games after reintegrating Ronaldo looking ass again. Sigh.
 
Santoryo said:
Another manager succumbing to Ronaldo's pressure and seeing things go south.

Why on earth would you sacrifice seeing your team showing improvement to indulge some egomaniac diva is beyond me.

It wasn't even 2 weeks ago the team looked like it was about to take another leap with string of consistent good performances yet here we are 4 games after reintegrating Ronaldo looking ass again. Sigh.
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Think if the missing players get fit by time World Cup over we will not be seeing Ronaldo. He wasn't left with too many quality options. In fact I would be playing those bench warmers on Thursday, if he has to sacrifice the EFL Cup so be it. Rest some of these lads for the Fulham game.
 
pascell said:
I'm a big ten Hag fan but today was a mess and this kind of result has been coming with recent performances.


For us not to approach the game with so much complacency. Ten Hag is an experienced manager, he should've known the Villa players will have been highly motivated so we needed to see out the first 15-20 minutes and build into the game. We did the absolute opposite and embarrassed ourselves.

He needs to be more reactive with his substitutions, it was blatantly evident van de Beek offered nothing and our midfield was being overran and bypassed with ease, we needed an extra body in there.
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The result wasn't coming because of recent performances, come on. It was a result that came because of a series of injuries and us not having the depth to cover those injuries properly.

You don't think that Ten Hag would have told them that? Sometimes it just doesn't quite work like you want. The players started like shit, and then picked it up after and played well after about 15-20 minutes. But damage was already done and our attackers weren't good enough to really do more anyway.

In terms of the subs... meh. We were well on top by the time the half time whistle went. Made sense not to change things right away. He made 3 subs at 60. I always felt like it was nit picking when fans complained about making subs at 60 minute mark rather than at half time, especially when the team performance vastly improved after the first 15 anyway.
 
Santoryo said:
Another manager succumbing to Ronaldo's pressure and seeing things go south.

Why on earth would you sacrifice seeing your team showing improvement to indulge some egomaniac diva is beyond me.

It wasn't even 2 weeks ago the team looked like it was about to take another leap with string of consistent good performances yet here we are 4 games after reintegrating Ronaldo looking ass again. Sigh.
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Something something, injuries, suspensions, illnesses.....
 
bosnian_red said:
Something something, injuries, suspensions, illnesses.....
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Poor excuse. Ronaldo was getting dropped and subbed out when we still had injuries (Martial), now he doesn't even get subbed out after doing nothing.

Today's game confirmed my suspicions. Should have been hooked and replaced by Martial like for like. Instead Ten Hag opted to keep in and put Martial in the hole and on the wing. Should have brought Fred to fill that midfield with his energy and put Martial as CF. Ronaldo shouldn't have finished that game.

Ten Hag continues to shuffle everyone in less optimal positions to accommodate Ronaldo.
 
He is digging his own graveyard with CR and DvB.
When shit hits the fan and players go in preservation mode we all know who will go first.
 
Judas said:
Exactly. I’ll sleep tonight purely because of that.

I wonder if the Ten Hag doubters are the same who desperately wanted Conte here.
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I didn’t want Conte, but I’ve started to think Conte would’ve been a perfect middle stop for United before bringing in ETH.

If I was able to reverse time….

Phase 1 (two seasons): Conte cleaning up the house; high demands to his surroundings; telling the players and board “I’m the boss and it’s either my way or the highway”. Pretty modern and demanding playing style. He also is pretty pragmatic and not as crazy as Mourinho.

Phase 2. ETH makes the fine tuning and brings United back in the title race within two seasons. ETH has the required Fingerspitzengefühl and intellectual x-factor to make United great again, but I’m not sure housecleaning is his strong skill.

United probably should have waited a bit and done some of the dirty job before hiring ETH. Right now it feels like we misuse ETH skills and waste his time at the club - which could’ve been saved for better times. By that saying I’m afraid board, players, supporters and maybe ETH himself aren’t patient enough or willing to «stay the race out».
 
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Why he decided to auto destruct himself?
We played well, team pressed high, played HIS type of football, mood was great, he showed that he is the boss etc....and then he reacted like a small time manager and throw everything in trash because of Ronaldo.

He should have put some kid in team, play Dubravka on striker or literally anything than what he did.
 
TheGame said:
This is a ridiculous post. It’s still early days and fans are backing the manager.
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"Backing the manager" in Redcafe means treating him like an absolute god who makes no mistakes and any losses are always due to the board/players/whatever.

It's the problem of those here who don't understand that you can back a manager without absolving him from any and every blame. Fergie used to make mistakes. People used to criticize him, it's normal. Managers are humans and they feck up. Pointing it doesn't mean we want them sacked. Meanwhile making a simple fact that results are what will be the ultimate judgement on not just Ten Hag but literally any manager in the world irritates those who "back the manager" to no end as if what they care about is the manager staying even if we get relegated in the process (and yeah I'm not saying Ten Hag is going to relegate us, one has to clarify every single sentence nowadays).

We see clubs around us sacking their managers 1 or 2 years after winning them league titles or Champions League but it's at Redcafe that the slightest talk about the possibility of the manager leaving at the end of the season (Again, at the end of the season, not now) if we fail to achieve top 4 is enough to make some here go riot.

Backing the manager is a fine concept, but ultimately we support United, not the manager. Backing the manager is fine but ultimately he's a human being who makes mistakes. For God's sake, Pep Guardiola makes ton of mistakes and people point it out, what's the problem ?
 
Andersonson said:
We didnt win the group with first 11 playing either. It just made everything worse. Poor squad use
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If Ronaldo scores his one on one on Thursday and we won 2-0 then today we’d be saying it was worth it. It’s fine margins and hindsight is 20/20.

Not going for it on Thursday would have been easily worse than what we did do.
 
Leftback99 said:
Is Fred injured? Because that's the most baffling decision to me. After a run of him starting (Omonia, Newcastle, Tottenham) where we had good control of the midfield he's suddenly been dropped for Van De Beek of all players.

Just looking at the line up before the game it was obvious we were in trouble.
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Unpopular opinion around here but I agree. Donny like? He does absolutely nothing. It’s almost like he’s giving everyone two or three games to see what they can do.
 
Santoryo said:
Another manager succumbing to Ronaldo's pressure and seeing things go south.

Why on earth would you sacrifice seeing your team showing improvement to indulge some egomaniac diva is beyond me.

It wasn't even 2 weeks ago the team looked like it was about to take another leap with string of consistent good performances yet here we are 4 games after reintegrating Ronaldo looking ass again. Sigh.
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With players injured and what have you I can’t see any other option than playing Ronaldo to be frank. Rashford could be an option, I think he’s more effective as no 9 than on the right. But that would have meant playing Garnacho and Elanga and I think that’s too much inexperience for the level of the EPL. If anything I would have played Elanga right & Rashford left, at EPL level I think Garnacho is only ready for coming on late when the opposition are tiering. But this Ronaldo nonsense is a bit of a red herring.
 
I don't know how can anyone defend starting Ronaldo today. He shouldn't be playing a 37-year-old 4 full games in 10 days never mind someone who's playing as badly as Ronaldo and has such a bad effect on the rest of the team.

Elanga would've been better, even Pellestri would've been a better choice than putting Rashford on the right and starting Ronaldo again.
 
This fan base is far too reactionary. It's a process under EtH. Lower your expectations as the manager has repeatedly pointed out after our recent run of victories. There'll be more games like this as much as it pains me to say as we simply don't have enough quality. This is a team that were lucky to finish 7th last season.

It's obvious we need a new GK. De Gea isn't gonna make the cut for how EtH wants to play.

We need to move Maguire and lindelof on so a new cb or 2 is needed (though this isn't a priority for us right now).

We're CRYING out for a ball-carrying midfielder a la Frenkie De Jong. Our midfield lacks that cutting edge to bring others into play and open teams up. It's so obvious from today and in previous games why EtH was hell bent on bringin FdJ in. I'm certain we'll be back in for him next summer.

And of course we need a number 9. As adored as he is for our club, Ronaldos days at the top are certainly over. Every game we've started with him up front has resulted in weak performances. It's almost as though the attackers and midfielders have to rush and force their play just to feed him. We need João Felix. He'll make an impact like Martial does on the team but difference being we'll be able to rely on him as he's barely injured.

Bring in another RB to compete for Dalot and we're good to go.

I'm convinced ETH will bring us back to the top but it's crucial he has the boards backing in this (which I believe he does as he wouldn't have risked his rep taking on a gigantic job at the helm).

Keep the faith and keep it moving!
 
Santoryo said:
Poor excuse. Ronaldo was getting dropped and subbed out when we still had injuries (Martial), now he doesn't even get subbed out after doing nothing.
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Except now we've got Martial, Antony and Sancho all out. We basically have five first team players for the front three positions, and three of them have been injured for the last couple of games (with Martial now just easing back in). Bruno also being out just makes it even worse in this game.

The instant we have some of our attacking options back I expect to see Ronaldo starting to get dropped again. It is, by far, the most likely scenario. Now if the unlikely happens and he continues starting consistently even when our options are back then the criticism will be fair, but why not wait until that happens before creating this narrative that ETH has bowed to the pressure.
 
phelans shorts said:
If Ronaldo scores his one on one on Thursday and we won 2-0 then today we’d be saying it was worth it. It’s fine margins and hindsight is 20/20.

Not going for it on Thursday would have been easily worse than what we did do.
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But he didn't score and his performance Thursday didn't warrant another start today.
 
MadDogg said:
Except now we've got Martial, Antony and Sancho all out. We basically have five first team players for the front three positions, and three of them have been injured for the last couple of games (with Martial now just easing back in). Bruno also being out just makes it even worse in this game.

The instant we have some of our attacking options back I expect to see Ronaldo starting to get dropped again. It is, by far, the most likely scenario. Now if the unlikely happens and he continues starting consistently even when our options are back then the criticism will be fair, but why not wait until that happens before creating this narrative that ETH has bowed to the pressure.
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Ok. So explain the sub of bringing on Martial to replace Dony in the hole, leaving Ronaldo who had done nothing all game on the pitch playing CF instead of bringing an actual midfielder in Fred to replace Dony and have Martial play as CF replacing Ronaldo.
 
phelans shorts said:
But again, who starts instead today. This is the question that absolutely nobody has been able to answer. Joe Hugill? That’s the level we’re looking at for our next option up front.
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I would 100% not want Ronaldo and don't even think it needs hindsight.

Id have preferred something like casemiro and Fred just behind Eriksen and VDB in a false 9. Rashford and Garnacho either side of him as inside forwards.

The minute ronaldo starts our attack becomes incredibly predictable.
 
el3mel said:
"Backing the manager" in Redcafe means treating him like an absolute god who makes no mistakes and any losses are always due to the board/players/whatever.

It's the problem of those here who don't understand that you can back a manager without absolving him from any and every blame. Fergie used to make mistakes. People used to criticize him, it's normal. Managers are humans and they feck up. Pointing it doesn't mean we want them sacked. Meanwhile making a simple fact that results are what will be the ultimate judgement on not just Ten Hag but literally any manager in the world irritates those who "back the manager" to no end as if what they care about is the manager staying even if we get relegated in the process (and yeah I'm not saying Ten Hag is going to relegate us, one has to clarify every single sentence nowadays).

We see clubs around us sacking their managers 1 or 2 years after winning them league titles or Champions League but it's at Redcafe that the slightest talk about the possibility of the manager leaving at the end of the season (Again, at the end of the season, not now) if we fail to achieve top 4 is enough to make some here go riot.

Backing the manager is a fine concept, but ultimately we support United, not the manager. Backing the manager is fine but ultimately he's a human being who makes mistakes. For God's sake, Pep Guardiola makes ton of mistakes and people point it out, what's the problem ?
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What mistake was that poster pointing out exactly, it was a general comment that hinted we should think about sacking him. I agree that no manager is immune to criticism, I disagreed with his selections today and have often felt he is too timid with subs.
 
phelans shorts said:
But again, who starts instead today. This is the question that absolutely nobody has been able to answer. Joe Hugill? That’s the level we’re looking at for our next option up front.
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Elanga with Rashford up front. Rashford is (unfortunately) our biggest threat right now and we used him in his worst position to accommodate Ronaldo who offers absolutely nothing.
 
With the schedule, injuries, lack of depth, and Villa having a new manager this was always going to be a dodgy game for us.

Ronaldo was poor yet again but with no Antony or Sancho, Elanga off form and Martial not fully fit there really wasn't anyone else to play. Only weird decision was not hook Van de Beek at half time.
 
Leftback99 said:
Elanga with Rashford up front. Rashford is (unfortunately) our biggest threat right now and we used him in his worst position to accommodate Ronaldo who offers absolutely nothing.
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Basically we handicapped ourselves. The very least we should have our best attacking threat in a position he can work from.
 
Santoryo said:
Ok. So explain the sub of bringing on Martial to replace Dony in the hole, leaving Ronaldo who had done nothing all game on the pitch playing CF instead of bringing an actual midfielder in Fred to replace Dony and have Martial play as CF replacing Ronaldo.
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We were losing so wanted more attackers on. Not exactly rocket science. Replacing Ronaldo with Fred (which is basically what you've said) is very different than replacing Ronaldo with Sancho for example.

I'm not saying it was the right call, but it's hardly some sign that he's succumbing to the pressure of playing Ronaldo. Once again, if he's making that same decision when we have actual attacking options then it'll be time to criticise. But seeing as ETH seemed to have no problems starting the season with Ronaldo as 4th or 5th choice, it's something I'm fairly confident about.
 
Santoryo said:
Poor excuse. Ronaldo was getting dropped and subbed out when we still had injuries (Martial), now he doesn't even get subbed out after doing nothing.

Today's game confirmed my suspicions. Should have been hooked and replaced by Martial like for like. Instead Ten Hag opted to keep in and put Martial in the hole and on the wing. Should have brought Fred to fill that midfield with his energy and put Martial as CF. Ronaldo shouldn't have finished that game.

Ten Hag continues to shuffle everyone in less optimal positions to accommodate Ronaldo.
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It's not? He's 5th choice attacker. When 3 of the other 4 attackers are out, he goes in? It's pretty self explanatory. He was a sub when we had Antony, Sancho and Rashford fit. We just have Rashford fit.

Ten Hag is literally the first manager ever to make Ronaldo a bit part player. To say he's accommodating Ronaldo is fecking laughable. We simply don't have other players available right now. He stayed on because we were down 2 goals, and didn't have anyone else to bring on in attack. That's all it was. How can you not see that Ten Hag has made him a backup, but that the backup had to be used when the starters are out? Lindelof isn't our main CB. But he plays when Varane is out. It's really nothing more than that, it's like you don't understand the concept of squad players and injuries ...
 
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