Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[Adam-Utd]

Because there were 3 City players for 2 of ours every time whil Antony was stood on his own at the halfway line.

I’ve just said it twice and you’re ignoring it so here’s a third.

Yeah sure he did

Even IF he did, it's still 11v11 and somebody should be covering. No doubt City had 2 centre backs sat on the half way line, where was our extra man?

You can try and blame Antony all you want but it was a shoddy team effort. They wanted it more and ran harder, we were lazy and failed to track.

 

[phelans shorts]

Yeah sure he did

Even IF he did, it's still 11v11 and somebody should be covering. No doubt City had 2 centre backs sat on the half way line, where was our extra man?

You can try and blame Antony all you want but it was a shoddy team effort. They wanted it more and ran harder, we were lazy and failed to track.

Ahh right, so you’re deliberately being dense. That makes more sense.

Antony’s man (Cancelo, since you appear not to have watched) was the one causing the overload, because he didn’t track. No right back would have succeeded in those conditions, especially after a very harsh booking 40 seconds in.

I’ve not even claimed anyone played well, just said Antony was the cause of the overload in the bottom corner, if he’d tracked Cancelo’s runs at least it would have been 3 on 3 rather than 3 on 2.

 

[Adnan]

Yeah sure he did

Even IF he did, it's still 11v11 and somebody should be covering. No doubt City had 2 centre backs sat on the half way line, where was our extra man?

You can try and blame Antony all you want but it was a shoddy team effort. They wanted it more and ran harder, we were lazy and failed to track.

I think the poster is referring to a sequence in the 28th/29th minute where City have possession and Rashford allows Ake to dribble the ball forward unchallenged due to not making much of a effort to stop him. In that situation Antony is walking back and is looking behind him because his man Cancelo isn't active in the sequence and he again does his job but Rashford allows Ake to create a overload with Grealish and Bernardo Silva.

So Antony walking back and being focused on his man Cancelo isn't culpable in that sequence. I've watched that sequence a number of times and can't understand why Rashford seems so disinterested in closing Ake down.

 

[Ish]

Ahh right, so you’re deliberately being dense. That makes more sense.

Antony’s man (Cancelo, since you appear not to have watched) was the one causing the overload, because he didn’t track. No right back would have succeeded in those conditions, especially after a very harsh booking 40 seconds in.

I’ve not even claimed anyone played well, just said Antony was the cause of the overload in the bottom corner, if he’d tracked Cancelo’s runs at least it would have been 3 on 3 rather than 3 on 2.

Admittedly, just from watching (I rarely go into deep analysis of matches on my own time) the match, I agree with you. Whether it was Dalot who didn't quite follow "pressing" instructions or not, or Antony getting it wrong and not tracking back/or pressing invertedly, there was a clear issue on their side with Dalot often facing an overload and up against 2 City players, which was impossible to mark. I think at least a couple of their goals came bcause of it (if not more!). I remember that new LB (Gomez?) also getting an assist in a similar situation.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Ahh right, so you’re deliberately being dense. That makes more sense.

Antony’s man (Cancelo, since you appear not to have watched) was the one causing the overload, because he didn’t track. No right back would have succeeded in those conditions, especially after a very harsh booking 40 seconds in.

I’ve not even claimed anyone played well, just said Antony was the cause of the overload in the bottom corner, if he’d tracked Cancelo’s runs at least it would have been 3 on 3 rather than 3 on 2.

Without context (need to see the sequence of play) it's hard to really say who's right or wrong. If he was purely lazy and didn't follow then fair enough.

I think the poster is referring to a sequence in the 28th/29th minute where City have possession and Rashford allows Ake to dribble the ball forward unchallenged due to not making much of a effort to stop him. In that situation Antony is walking back and is looking behind him because his man Cancelo isn't active in the sequence and he again does his job but Rashford allows Ake to create a overload with Grealish and Bernardo Silva.

So Antony walking back and being focused on his man Cancelo isn't culpable in that sequence. I've watched that sequence a number of times and can't understand why Rashford seems so disinterested in closing Ake down.

Football is a fluid game with equal players, if we want to press and somebody ends up out of position then the others need to pick up the slack.

 

[Adnan]

Without context (need to see the sequence of play) it's hard to really say who's right or wrong. If he was purely lazy and didn't follow then fair enough.



Football is a fluid game with equal players, if we want to press and somebody ends up out of position then the others need to pick up the slack.

I agree, but our problem in the game was that our wounds were self inflicted. And apart from the first goal where fingers can be pointed towards Antony when he decided to push out centrally whilst defending deep, his off the ball work was on point. But like I've mentioned earlier, you can't compensate for certain players showing a unwillingness to close the opposition down and Rashford and Dalot were either unwilling to fully commit or in Dalot's case forgot his duties off the ball. And Dalot gave away three good opportunities to City which they missed.

And most of their goals were avoidable having watched the game again. Haaland scoring from a corner after Varane was receiving treatment was another kick in the teeth. If we can do the basics right and show belief on the ball, then we would look a different team.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

Its a fact. I'm laughing at the fact he gone back 2 seasons after the debacle last season. He could have said we were the best team in the league a decade ago and its a fact, but its in the present we need to be.

But his point stands. Being a shambles last season doesn't make us a shambles this season. Just look at Arsenal. I don't think there are clearly four better teams than us in this league, its all par for the course.

 

[wolvored]

But his point stands. Being a shambles last season doesn't make us a shambles this season. Just look at Arsenal. I don't think there are clearly four better teams than us in this league, its all par for the course.

We will have to agree to disagree. In my opinion there are 5 better, and using the last season barometer where we finished 6th shows that.

 

[phelans shorts]

I think the poster is referring to a sequence in the 28th/29th minute where City have possession and Rashford allows Ake to dribble the ball forward unchallenged due to not making much of a effort to stop him. In that situation Antony is walking back and is looking behind him because his man Cancelo isn't active in the sequence and he again does his job but Rashford allows Ake to create a overload with Grealish and Bernardo Silva.

So Antony walking back and being focused on his man Cancelo isn't culpable in that sequence. I've watched that sequence a number of times and can't understand why Rashford seems so disinterested in closing Ake down.

I’m referring to the entire bleeding first half, it was right in front of me it was so blatant. There’s no microanalysis other than they had 3 men on that wing about 8 times in the first half alone against 2 of ours.

 

[Adnan]

I’m referring to the entire bleeding first half, it was right in front of me it was so blatant. There’s no microanalysis other than they had 3 men on that wing about 8 times in the first half alone against 2 of ours.

Which three City players?

The sequence you were referring to was in the 28th/29th minute where Antony is walking and looking over his shoulder at Cancelo. And it was Rashford who allowed the CB Ake to dart forward from LCB, which caused the overload with Grealish and Bernardo Silva in tandem.

 

[phelans shorts]

Which three City players?

The sequence you were referring to was in the 28th/29th minute where Antony is walking and looking over his shoulder at Cancelo. And it was Rashford who allowed the CB Ake to dart forward from LCB, which caused the overload with Grealish and Bernardo Silva in tandem.

You’re taking the naming of City players far too literally. It was largely Bernardo pulling McTominay across and it was largely Cancelo moving forward.

I was there and haven’t watched it back because I’m not a masochist, as I’m acutely aware that my thoughts on what went wrong are totally irrelevant to the grand scheme so why would I put myself through that. I wasn’t referring to any specific sequence unless you count THE ENTIRE FIRST HALF as a single sequence.

 

[the_cliff]

You’re laughing but it’s literally a fact.

I'm sure he's the only person in the caf that didn't expect us to finish top 4 the beginning of last season after signing Sancho, Ronaldo and Varane.

 

[the_cliff]

Its a fact. I'm laughing at the fact he gone back 2 seasons after the debacle last season. He could have said we were the best team in the league a decade ago and its a fact, but its in the present we need to be.

I think you need to re read the conversation and see my point. You clearly have no idea what I'm talking about.

 

[Adnan]

You’re taking the naming of City players far too literally. It was largely Bernardo pulling McTominay across and it was largely Cancelo moving forward.

I was there and haven’t watched it back because I’m not a masochist, as I’m acutely aware that my thoughts on what went wrong are totally irrelevant to the grand scheme so why would I put myself through that. I wasn’t referring to any specific sequence unless you count THE ENTIRE FIRST HALF as a single sequence.

With exception of the first goal, Antony's work off the ball from a tactical pov was fine and wasn't the cause of the dysfunction on the right hand side. And the sequence you described in your earlier post where you pinned blame on Antony was wrong and it was actually Rashford allowing Ake to dribble up field unchallenged, whilst the walking Antony was looking over his shoulder at Cancelo who was behind him.

 

[phelans shorts]

With exception of the first goal, Antony's work off the ball from a tactical pov was fine and wasn't the cause of the dysfunction on the right hand side. And the sequence you described in your earlier post where you pinned blame on Antony was wrong and it was actually Rashford allowing Ake to dribble up field unchallenged, whilst the walking Antony was looking over his shoulder at Cancelo who was behind him.

I DID NOT DESCRIBE A SINGLE SEQUENCE IT WAS THE ENTIRE FIRST HALF

Jesus Christ this is painful. Antony did a totally insufficient amount of tracking. That’s just a fact. You can keep claiming I was talking about one single moment if you want but you’re lying and I’ve outright stated it several times now.

I quite like Antony, and can see why people want to defend him, but his defensive work on Sunday was abysmal and it’s only right to call that out, rather than do what you are and building a strawman because you saw one post on Twitter saying he did the right thing in one precise incident.

If Rashford had chased this one incident that literally nobody has any memory of back to right back he’d have been chastised because he’s supposed to be centre forward, for what it’s worth.

 

[Adnan]

I DID NOT DESCRIBE A SINGLE SEQUENCE IT WAS THE ENTIRE FIRST HALF

Jesus Christ this is painful. Antony did a totally insufficient amount of tracking. That’s just a fact. You can keep claiming I was talking about one single moment if you want but you’re lying and I’ve outright stated it several times now.

I quite like Antony, and can see why people want to defend him, but his defensive work on Sunday was abysmal and it’s only right to call that out, rather than do what you are and building a strawman because you saw one post on Twitter saying he did the right thing in one precise incident.

If Rashford had chased this one incident that literally nobody has any memory of back to right back he’d have been chastised because he’s supposed to be centre forward, for what it’s worth.

relax mate.

Give me one example in the first half where Antony neglected his defensive duties?. He was culpable for the first goal I accept that, but I don't see where he was culpable for the dysfunction on the right side.

That shouldn't be difficult for you.

 

[Cascarino]

I don't think we'll fire ETH without top 4 either. As long as it doesn't get too bad.

My point was considering the competition, the signings we've made and how the season has started I think it would be a failure not to finish top 4 and I'm sure ETH would agree.

I think you’re right in that he’d also consider it a failure, but it’s always going to be hard when it’s 4 spots for four.

I think the bolded is a fair point

But his point stands. Being a shambles last season doesn't make us a shambles this season. Just look at Arsenal. I don't think there are clearly four better teams than us in this league, its all par for the course.

The Arsenal thing is a big part of my point. This season (so far) hasn’t happened in a vacuum for them. They’ve made constant incremental progress, both in terms of overhauling the squad personnel and the playing style. It’s what I kept pointing to in the Arteta thread. It’s took him plenty of time but the direction was always clear. Klopp and Pep have been here for years.

ETH took over a side that was in free fall, with big foundational problems. It’s not something that can be fixed in one window. He’s an excellent manager but it will take him time.

 

[phelans shorts]

relax mate.

Give me one example in the first half where Antony neglected his defensive duties?. He was culpable for the first goal I accept that, but I don't see where he was culpable for the dysfunction on the right side.

That shouldn't be difficult for you.

The first goal literally came from that side. So your big brain knowledge has out done you, here. I can’t list them because I was at the game and have the square root of zero interest in watching any of it back. Why on earth would I put myself through that?

 

[Adnan]

The first goal literally came from that side. So your big brain knowledge has out done you, here. I can’t list them because I was at the game and have the square root of zero interest in watching any of it back. Why on earth would I put myself through that?

I've said several times he was at fault for the first goal. But apart from that I don't see where he made any mistakes off the ball from a tactical perspective.

If you had zero interest in discussing this, then you shouldn't have engaged in discussion with me. But i'm gonna leave it at this and move on and I hope I didn't anger you. And if I did, then i'm sorry.

 

[Bestietom]

We are not up to their standard and will take another 2 windows to get close to them.
We need a Top goalscoring CF, a RB and a Sweeper Goalkeeper and another CB when we get rid of the deadwood.

 

[phelans shorts]

I've said several times he was at fault for the first goal. But apart from that I don't see where he made any mistakes off the ball from a tactical perspective.

If you had zero interest in discussing this, then you shouldn't have engaged in discussion with me. But i'm gonna leave it at this and move on and I hope I didn't anger you. And if I did, then i'm sorry.

You created an argument that I never made by naming a single situation I have zero recollection of, I just told you that you were wrong because I wasn’t talking about that. At which point you repeatedly told me this one occasion that I never mentioned that Rashford was to blame.

Antony didn’t track enough in the first half, that was my only point and nobody has offered anything to challenge that assertion. I don’t care what tactical perspective you want to look at, but if there’s 3 attackers on a full back and a midfielder out wide then the winger needs to come back. Football is a simple game at heart.

 

[largelyworried]

SAF was actually a massive attacking idealist for the vast majority of his time here. He didn't embrace pragmatism till his final years where he just became generally conservative from the pitch to the transfer market. The notion that SAF was a pragmatic manager is genuinely saddening when it comes from United fans because it means they genuinely don't remember a lot of his best years.

I don't think it's that straight forward to be honest. I think he was idealistic, but in a different way to modern managers. Modern managers tend to have ideals right down the tactical level of games. This might include things like how many players you have in the back line, whether you play single or double pivot, inside or outside wingers, always pressing high, etc. That wasn't what SAF was about.

For SAF it was more about the most basic principles of the game. His was more of a 'he who dares wins' kind of philosophy. He wanted his teams to continually pressure and attack the opposition, and would always be prepared to gamble. He very rarely would settle for a draw when a win was there for the taking.

However where he was more pragmatic was about how exactly he achieved that. He wasn't wedded to a certain formation, he wasn't worried about winning only via possession or counter attack, he'd do whatever was best. He wasn't worried about having certain types of wingers or certain types of strikers, he had all sorts over his career. If an outstanding player came along that didn't fit his system, he'd change the system, not the player.

In many respects, he was the highest level of idealist. He set winning above all else and would do whatever it took to achieve this. Compared to, say, his old opponent Wenger, who often gave the impression he'd rather lose than play football the 'wrong way'.

 

[Adnan]

You created an argument that I never made by naming a single situation I have zero recollection of, I just told you that you were wrong because I wasn’t talking about that. At which point you repeatedly told me this one occasion that I never mentioned that Rashford was to blame.

Antony didn’t track enough in the first half, that was my only point and nobody has offered anything to challenge that assertion. I don’t care what tactical perspective you want to look at, but if there’s 3 attackers on a full back and a midfielder out wide then the winger needs to come back. Football is a simple game at heart.

If there's three attackers on two players, then it's important to attempt to understand who allowed the numerical superiority to occur. And apart from the first goal where we were defending deep and Antony decided to press centrally, and it cost us a goal, his off the ball work was good from a tactical pov and you shouldn't blame him for the ill discipline of others.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

You created an argument that I never made by naming a single situation I have zero recollection of, I just told you that you were wrong because I wasn’t talking about that. At which point you repeatedly told me this one occasion that I never mentioned that Rashford was to blame.

Antony didn’t track enough in the first half, that was my only point and nobody has offered anything to challenge that assertion. I don’t care what tactical perspective you want to look at, but if there’s 3 attackers on a full back and a midfielder out wide then the winger needs to come back. Football is a simple game at heart.

Go here and click on the players shirts. You'll see a heat map. This shows that Antony spent more time in his own half than any other attacking player on either team. Now you may be able to remember some incidents where our right side was exposed but the inference that Antony was lazy or didn't track back enough over the course of the game (or even for half of the game) is obviously wrong.

 

[Greck]

You created an argument that I never made by naming a single situation I have zero recollection of, I just told you that you were wrong because I wasn’t talking about that. At which point you repeatedly told me this one occasion that I never mentioned that Rashford was to blame.

Antony didn’t track enough in the first half, that was my only point and nobody has offered anything to challenge that assertion. I don’t care what tactical perspective you want to look at, but if there’s 3 attackers on a full back and a midfielder out wide then the winger needs to come back. Football is a simple game at heart.

Actually agree with you. he was a part of it. Biggest problem is without knowing what our attackers were instructed to do it's hard to comb our chances and be certain what was mistake and design. Like the way Sancho and Rashford played it's hard to deduce a true high press was part of the plan. We clearly wanted someone there to spring counters but they'd just stay stationed in the mid block zone while the defense got overwhelmed for long periods. One guy would make an error then pass on the confusion, the 5th goal, the halaand side netting were instances they (antony) were there but not really there.

Best to just leave it at everyone made mistakes, do better. It will become clearer which is weakness and design as the season sample grows. In the case of a player like Rashford who has been doing it for a while I just think he is given sizable discretion on how to use his counterattacking talents but sometimes/often abuses it.

 

[Adnan]

Defending from the front doesn't have to involve a high press, because the front is dictated by how high or low the last line is. We didn't attempt to implement a high press but were trying to defend from the front.

 

[NK86]

Defending from the front doesn't have to involve a high press, because the front is dictated by how high or low the last line is. We didn't attempt to implement a high press but were trying to defend from the front.

I am assuming you are talking about the City game here. If that's the case, we were never defending from the front. There can be multiple metrics to prove that but the eye test was clear. As soon as City defenders got the ball, we retreated. So much so, that Ake basically ran through our midfield multiple times while Rasford stood there like a moron.

 

[Adnan]

I am assuming you are talking about the City game here. If that's the case, we were never defending from the front. There can be multiple metrics to prove that but the eye test was clear. As soon as City defenders got the ball, we retreated. So much so, that Ake basically ran through our midfield multiple times while Rasford stood there like a moron.

You're correct because the press from the front wasn't backed up and the last line had to retreat. I've been saying that for the last few days.

 

[NK86]

You're correct because the press from the front wasn't backed up and the last line had to retreat. I've been saying that for the last few days.

I haven't seen the match again (and don't intend to) but I just cannot remember us pressing at all barring a few instances. Most of the times, we kept retreating as soon as we lost the ball. However I am sure there were some moments where we tried to press their defense with their GK them calmly passing it to their midfield or the wide full backs where there was no pressure from us.

In all this though, Rashford set the tone from the first whistle. Just jogging around as if he was on a stroll on a Saturday evening in the park. It was embarrassing to even watch that. If he gets rewarded with a new contract or keeps his position once Martial is back, I will lose all hope for ETH too. If lazy players are not dropped and shipped out, nothing will ever change and Rashford is the laziest of the lot. What happened to him!

 

[LoneStar]

I hope he's backed this season regardless of whether we finish top 4 or not. At this point, we need to trust the process and hope it works out. What other option do we have anyway?

But I hope to see more attacking and front foot football compared to what we are seeing now. Granted, it's just been 10 games in, but I was hoping for some glimpses and moments of fluid football so far.

 

[Adnan]

I haven't seen the match again (and don't intend to) but I just cannot remember us pressing at all barring a few instances. Most of the times, we kept retreating as soon as we lost the ball. However I am sure there were some moments where we tried to press their defense with their GK them calmly passing it to their midfield or the wide full backs where there was no pressure from us.

In all this though, Rashford set the tone from the first whistle. Just jogging around as if he was on a stroll on a Saturday evening in the park. It was embarrassing to even watch that. If he gets rewarded with a new contract or keeps his position once Martial is back, I will lose all hope for ETH too. If lazy players are not dropped and shipped out, nothing will ever change and Rashford is the laziest of the lot. What happened to him!

You're correct our closing down was abysmal and that was due to the gap between the forwards and Dalot/McTominay on the right side being too large which meant we couldn't be vertically compact.

I don't know what's going through Rashford's mind because at times he was allowing players to run past him which caused additional problems.

 

[croadyman]

We are not up to their standard and will take another 2 windows to get close to them.
We need a Top goalscoring CF, a RB and a Sweeper Goalkeeper and another CB when we get rid of the deadwood.

Would also throw a midfielder in as well

 

[Polar]

Antony did a totally insufficient amount of tracking. That’s just a fact. You can keep claiming I was talking about one single moment if you want but you’re lying and I’ve outright stated it several times now.

I quite like Antony, and can see why people want to defend him, but his defensive work on Sunday was abysmal and it’s only right to call that out

Spot on. We all probably agree Antony is one of few on the team with potential, which he also showed with his brilliant goal, but we can’t be totally blended by that. Antony have to improve his defensive work and in that regard off course needs a lot of coaching.

It remains to see how good ETH is to coach the players defensively and make our defence compact and we’ll organised.

I’m a fan of ETH’s principles but he also has to prove he is able to bring it out in practice. Until now things look like same old shit, but we have to accept it takes time to turn the ship.

 

[bleedred]

I hope he's backed this season regardless of whether we finish top 4 or not. At this point, we need to trust the process and hope it works out. What other option do we have anyway?

But I hope to see more attacking and front foot football compared to what we are seeing now. Granted, it's just been 10 games in, but I was hoping for some glimpses and moments of fluid football so far.

What has ETH done with regards to the process to deserve backing?. What we are witnessing on the field is the exact shit served up over the past 5 years.
What's the point in spending another half a billion to make a squad in his vision when we cannot see any sign of his vision on the field now?. We did the same with Ole and Jose and see how it turned out?.

 

[jameyzane]

What is he training them to do? No pressing, they rarely cross. They want to work it in to the net.

 

[PoTMS]

It is concerning how we look no different to what we've done in the past while spending a shit tonne of money. I expected so much more from him but it's early days. My question is why was so much spent on unproven players or players the manager doesn't trust?

 

[LoneStar]

What has ETH done with regards to the process to deserve backing?. What we are witnessing on the field is the exact shit served up over the past 5 years.
What's the point in spending another half a billion to make a squad in his vision when we cannot see any sign of his vision on the field now?. We did the same with Ole and Jose and see how it turned out?.

How many times do we need to do the same thing before we learn? I say we should have faith in him for a season, and give him a chance to implement his coaching methods into the team.

If he still fails to perform next season, then we at least gave it a proper shot. Look at Arsenal with Arterta, Liverpool with Klopp in their first season. The former approach of to 4 or sack has clearly not worked for us. If we are in the top 6, we should not sack him and give him a chance next season.

 

[FreakyJim]

3 months in and we are the same slow, lazy team. 0 press, awful movement. It's like Ole never left.

What is ETH actually doing?

 

[DJ_21]

3 months in and we are the same slow, lazy team. 0 press, awful movement. It's like Ole never left.

What is ETH actually doing?

Trying to coach a bunch of players that seem to be un coachable. ETH Ajax team would be like 3 up now. Our current teams better then there’s was surely??

 

[AndySmith1990]

I would bin the entire squad and start from scratch before even contemplating replacing Ten Hag. I actually think we'd be closer to winning the title in 10 years if we had to start from scratch and work our way up from the national leagues, rather than continuining with this lot and going through the same process every summer. The squad is broken from years of mismanagement; and new players are eventually tainted by the rot of the old lot