Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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The problem with giving managers such as Jose & Ole more time than required is that it places unrealistic expectations on the manager who succeeds them & is probably the best shout to be the right man for the job.
 
I don't really disagree with that logic, things can change quickly in football, but 34 points is a heck of a lot, and Klopp has had many years with this Liverpool side. I'm not sure how you can expect ETH to be finishing ahead of them considering the context.

ETH will need some time and patience.
Considering the context of how the season has started for both those teams I'd say we have a pretty good chance. I'm sure last season the teams that saw our bad start to the season also thought they should finish top 4 too.
 
A few United supporters have said to me this week that doubts are starting to creep in about ETH. Not just based on Sunday but everything they've seen so far this season.

Anybody else having doubts or concerns?
No, I’m convinced that he’s the right one to take us forward.
It’s depressing his knee jerk modern fans can get
 
Interesting you say that. I thought it was Antony who was at fault, leaving the RW position to press inside leading to city playing around him ending in a 2v1 against Dalot which BTW happened multiple times in first half.
This is just one example of Dalot missing in action when it comes to pressing from the front. It left Antony in no mans land on several occasions where he did his job, but Dalot didn't occupy the space which gave City an easy out and hence disrupted our defensive structure.

 
It’s not? How do you know that? I’ve seen a manager in ETH that has had quite pragmatic instructions during the Liverpool and Arsenal matches. We have altered tactics based on our opponents.

‘There is a lot of snobbery in the Caf about trendy tactical philosophies that we must implement in order to win trophies. SAF was probably the most pragmatic manager ever in terms of picking sides and tactics to attack opponent’s weaknesses.
SAF was actually a massive attacking idealist for the vast majority of his time here. He didn't embrace pragmatism till his final years where he just became generally conservative from the pitch to the transfer market. The notion that SAF was a pragmatic manager is genuinely saddening when it comes from United fans because it means they genuinely don't remember a lot of his best years.
 
SAF was actually a massive attacking idealist for the vast majority of his time here. He didn't embrace pragmatism till his final years where he just became generally conservative from the pitch to the transfer market. The notion that SAF was a pragmatic manager is genuinely saddening when it comes from United fans because it means they genuinely don't remember a lot of his best years.

Infuriating honestly to see SAF labelled as the most pragmatic manager ever.

They can't have watched us in the early 2000s or nineties.
 
SAF was actually a massive attacking idealist for the vast majority of his time here. He didn't embrace pragmatism till his final years where he just became generally conservative from the pitch to the transfer market. The notion that SAF was a pragmatic manager is genuinely saddening when it comes from United fans because it means they genuinely don't remember a lot of his best years.
So true. Very saddening. 1992-1994,1999-2001 and 2007-2009 were great attacking teams.

1999-2001 was an absolute joy to watch. Euphoric swashbuckling football
 
So true. Very saddening. 1992-1994,1999-2001 and 2007-2009 were great attacking teams.

1999-2001 was an absolute joy to watch. Euphoric swashbuckling football
Most of the people who were alive when Ferguson was manager have either passed on or are in their 90s now.
 
Infuriating honestly to see SAF labelled as the most pragmatic manager ever.

They can't have watched us in the early 2000s or nineties.
It's been so long (and I guess it takes a while until kids really get into tactics on top of that time) that many probably don't actually remember. If you're under 25 or so you won't have seen that much of SAF first hand unless you had an insane memory as a teenager.

I remember there were an alarming number who didn't even know about his Aberdeen experience when someone made a thread/post on that a while back.
 
When I watch us I just don't see a team that is looking to play possession based football, that is my gripe. To me we look more like a team that is built to try to play in fast transitions. Do we want to press? ETH says we do but I'd say our press has been average to non-existent so far. We build a lot in wide areas and in some games have focused heavily on putting crosses into the box. This is where I am at odds with when some claim he is a possession based manager. I imagine in Eredivisie that Ajax dominated possession by default as they had much more quality compared to the other teams - they were the Man City of that division such was the gulf in quality. Particularly going back to around 2019 when they had a good group of players come through their system.

Watching the highlights and reading the stats from the Real Madrid game that you reference, I feel this only backs up my point. They scored 3 goals through turnovers and quick transitions, with the final goal coming through an outrageous freekick. The stats suggest Real Madrid dominated the game in terms of possession, despite the scoreline. Sounds familiar (Arsenal, Leicester and Liverpool this season).

Fair enough, it will absolutely take time to implement his style. However, I don't see the 'makings' of a possession based side or a team that is building towards that right now. In my opinion you have to be dominant to be a top team, so that is the natural progression that I am looking for. I'm not calling for his head, but more looking for reassurance that this is what he is trying to do. Pep and Klopp struggled initially but I watched City and Liverpool and could see what they were trying to do. I've seen many managers take over worse teams and stamp their style on a team quickly - even if results were further down the road whilst it was perfected.
Sympathise but we just don't have the personnel to go full possession. The right balance is what we're currently seeing, that is to play it in spurts. I can't see the future but I'm certain the squad as presently constituted will never be a possession type till more phaseouts come. We've now conceded 10 times in 2 games we didn't park the bus. The squad absolutely sucks ass at playing without a deep line or battling for possession. The mistakes of his predecessors in building it are evident. It's so clear they didn't know how to have the ball or even want it.

He has to play this way because that is the most reasonable course. Asking De Gea to always pass out of the back, asking our midfield to be press resistant, this is like asking them to be better players. Sustaining possession is simply not going to happen with so much anti-possession talents.
 
The things that City do, it’s very easy to see what their weaknesses are and how to attack them. The issue is execution. They are incredibly well coached and they have top top talent. But there is a reason Pep hasn’t won the CL yet. Of course, if you do not execute and play well vs City, the pressure will continue to build and very difficult to cope with for 90 minutes. But you saw in the CL ties vs Real Madrid last season. Despite being ahead in the tie, Pep and the squad only play one way. Instead of moving to a 4-4-2 and shutting up shop, they continued to hold a high line against a very talented Real side. Is that good management? Is it arrogance? Is it smart?

I guess my preference would be for Ten Hag to create a side that is tactically flexible, who can thump clubs like Everton away by superior possession and technique, but also can win those very difficult fixtures against top clubs by being pragmatic and tactically smart.
I agree with you regarding Guardiola and feel he's found himself in such privileged positions at Barcelona, Bayern and now with Abu Dhabi backing that he on most occasions doesn't need to stray too far from his ideals after being promoted from Barca B. He's still a great coach and it was his ideals and ability to execute a proactive attacking approach which was rewarded after his stint with Barcelona reserves.

But ten Hag on the other hand has shown he can adapt and manage games by adapting to the opponent. The Champions league run in 2019, is a clear example of him adapting to the opponent in big games and even ceding territory on occasions against the bigger teams like Real Madrid and controlling the defensive transition instead.

But his Ajax team could also transition into a more imposing team by taking the initiative and attempting to dominate the game in possession which is a trait all the successful clubs have, including Real Madrid.
 
Is this the SAF appreciation thread :wenger:
 
Considering the context of how the season has started for both those teams I'd say we have a pretty good chance. I'm sure last season the teams that saw our bad start to the season also thought they should finish top 4 too.

That's a fair point, I just don't think player for player will mean it happening, and that should be taken into consideration when assessing ETH and his job security imo.
Still anything can happen and I'll hold my hands up at the end of the season if things turn out differently.
 
A few United supporters have said to me this week that doubts are starting to creep in about ETH. Not just based on Sunday but everything they've seen so far this season.
Anybody else having doubts or concerns?
Too early to tell. I think he has that Dutch coach "arrogance" which will prevent him from being flexible with tactics and playing style. Could go either way but I am fairly confident that united are not spending 200m net next year. I still can't believe he played a 2-man midfield with Eriksen against City and did not even have Bruno drop deep to help out in defense.
 
A few United supporters have said to me this week that doubts are starting to creep in about ETH. Not just based on Sunday but everything they've seen so far this season.

Anybody else having doubts or concerns?
No.
 
That's a fair point, I just don't think player for player will mean it happening, and that should be taken into consideration when assessing ETH and his job security imo.
Still anything can happen and I'll hold my hands up at the end of the season if things turn out differently.
I don't think we'll fire ETH without top 4 either. As long as it doesn't get too bad.

My point was considering the competition, the signings we've made and how the season has started I think it would be a failure not to finish top 4 and I'm sure ETH would agree.
 
The worrying factor is his team selection. Is DVB so bad now he can't even get into the squad?
 
I think making a hard and fast rule that no top 4 = instant sacking is counterproductive. Obviously if results are poor enough and it's clear things are not going to work you move on. But if team is making strides and implementing the new style and the problem is simply a lack of quality at a few positions, then firing the manager and starting over with a new one with a different tactical philosophy is going to create the same bedding in problems we're seeing right now.

At some point it needs to be recognized that ETH didn't walk into the typical "top club" situation, unless someone would like to make the argument that the squad was actually of sufficient quality last year and the sole problem was poor management. The situation isn't like the one at Real Madrid or Bayern, where the squad is chock full of world class players at 8+ positions, iy was genuinely not good enough and had no confidence whatsoever.
 
SAF was actually a massive attacking idealist for the vast majority of his time here. He didn't embrace pragmatism till his final years where he just became generally conservative from the pitch to the transfer market. The notion that SAF was a pragmatic manager is genuinely saddening when it comes from United fans because it means they genuinely don't remember a lot of his best years.
The glazers were the reason for the no value in the market. They only started spending big after he left and they realised the other managers couldnt manage with the drop off in quality
 
Surely Erik would rather work with a Mitchell or Campos than Murtough but club won't give it to him, gotta say @pocco is clearly lacking patience if he's asking fellow fans about Ten Hag already.
 
The worrying factor is his team selection. Is DVB so bad now he can't even get into the squad?
Of all the decisions ETH has made to point to, not playing DvB is the least worrying and the most predictable.
 
A few United supporters have said to me this week that doubts are starting to creep in about ETH. Not just based on Sunday but everything they've seen so far this season.

Anybody else having doubts or concerns?
8 games in?

Incredible.
 
This is just one example of Dalot missing in action when it comes to pressing from the front. It left Antony in no mans land on several occasions where he did his job, but Dalot didn't occupy the space which gave City an easy out and hence disrupted our defensive structure.


It's strange, up until Sunday he was sound defensively, dont know what happened vs City, he was in no man's land and Graelish was having him on toast constantly.
 
Well Antony did the press so didnt abandon him, it was the other way around.
So that one clip negates the entire first half? I know what I watched, Antony standing on the half way line while 3 City players swarmed us right in front of the away fans.

That’s abandoning your defence whatever way you look at it
 
So that one clip negates the entire first half? I know what I watched, Antony standing on the half way line while 3 City players swarmed us right in front of the away fans.

That’s abandoning your defence whatever way you look at it
In any case we weren't coordinated and were too soft.
 
It's strange, up until Sunday he was sound defensively, dont know what happened vs City, he was in no man's land and Graelish was having him on toast constantly.
The problem that arose with him not closing down the space was that Antony was caught in no mans land in the advanced half space. Antony was taking up the same position for Ajax off the ball but the difference was that Mazraoui and Alvarez would actually back up the press.

But it's something that Dalot shouldn't find difficult to grasp.
 
So that one clip negates the entire first half? I know what I watched, Antony standing on the half way line while 3 City players swarmed us right in front of the away fans.

That’s abandoning your defence whatever way you look at it
If Dalot didn't spend 90 minutes running away from Grealish and giving him 10 yards of space everywhere he went, maybe that flank wouldn't have been so much of a threat.

You have to wonder why he hasn't looked great against other opposition, why he suddenly looked class against us? that silly 2 minute yellow card meant he played on eggshells all game.
 
If Dalot didn't spend 90 minutes running away from Grealish and giving him 10 yards of space everywhere he went, maybe that flank wouldn't have been so much of a threat.
Because there were 3 City players for 2 of ours every time whil Antony was stood on his own at the halfway line.

I’ve just said it twice and you’re ignoring it so here’s a third.
 
You’re laughing but it’s literally a fact.
Its a fact. I'm laughing at the fact he gone back 2 seasons after the debacle last season. He could have said we were the best team in the league a decade ago and its a fact, but its in the present we need to be.
 
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