Jesus give it a rest
some of ye in here are unbelievable.Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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some of ye in here are unbelievable.Other clubs manage it pretty well. Conte at Spurs changed them pretty bloody quickly.
Did he? I think they've gone backways this season, and I wasn't overly impressed with them last season.
Plus it's Conte, so he'll probably implode before season's end anyway.
It seems like a lot of people don't actually watch football games and compare it to highlights from other teams.
There are many elements evident that show how differently we operate as a team. We play more in clusters with combination plays evident during several periods of the game, we build up with a 3 and have been able to overcome the ball effectively to the attacking half of the pitch (something we struggled with for years, our full backs invert and our wingers stay wide when they attack.
It's not perfect and it's clear elements of fluidity are not yet there, but it's also clear that these elements are improving with each game. City at the Etihad came far too soon for us and holes in our process were exposed. It doesn't mean we haven't progressed.
The problem I think some fans here have is they can't really read the game, so say everything is terrible despite whilst not being specific. We are currently struggling to link the rest of the team to the centre of our attack. Sancho and Ronaldo have been terrible in getting involved. They're not moving well, not pressing well and not supporting the team at the moment. It's making attacks coming through the centre and on the left flank difficult to sustain. Its easy blaming Bruno (despite key passes), but if 2 of your three attackers aren't ready for your final ball consistently, what are you supposed to do? That's where the issue lies at the moment. We have solutions at the club already in Rashford and Martial.
There are many elements evident that show how differently we operate as a team. We play more in clusters with combination plays evident during several periods of the game, we build up with a 3 and have been able to overcome the ball effectively to the attacking half of the pitch (something we struggled with for years, our full backs invert and our wingers stay wide when they attack.
It's not perfect and it's clear elements of fluidity are not yet there, but it's also clear that these elements are improving with each game. City at the Etihad came far too soon for us and holes in our process were exposed. It doesn't mean we haven't progressed.
The problem I think some fans here have is they can't really read the game, so say everything is terrible despite whilst not being specific. We are currently struggling to link the rest of the team to the centre of our attack. Sancho and Ronaldo have been terrible in getting involved. They're not moving well, not pressing well and not supporting the team at the moment. It's making attacks coming through the centre and on the left flank difficult to sustain. Its easy blaming Bruno (despite key passes), but if 2 of your three attackers aren't ready for your final ball consistently, what are you supposed to do? That's where the issue lies at the moment. We have solutions at the club already in Rashford and Martial.
Martial immediately came on and was played in a spot (left sided forward between Rashford and Cristiano) that caused Omonia trouble, so at least we now have a manager who can see where a basically helpless team parking the bus might be overloaded and bring on a player to overload that space.
Also points for removing Sancho who was non-existent.
Bringing on McTominay made logical sense but he also immediately set about creating opportunities for Omonia with his defensive spaciness.
Also points for removing Sancho who was non-existent.
Bringing on McTominay made logical sense but he also immediately set about creating opportunities for Omonia with his defensive spaciness.
We need to persevere with being patient on the ball and trying to break teams down through progressive passing, switching of the play and getting our attacking players in situations where they can affect the game.
Too often in the past, like under Ole and Mourinho, we would just throw the kitchen sink at it and then reap the short term rewards.
ETH is not perfect but we must trust the process. He was ready to sub off Malacia i.e 'one of his boys', Bruno and take off Sancho, who he has repeatedly talked up; it shows he's okay to play the hard line when it matters.
Of course it's against minnows and Ronaldo finished the game (which I don't think is a bad thing) and he may be resting those mentioned above for the Everton game so it may be short lived. However, ETH is learning and tweaking things in a really tricky situation whilst trying to get points on the board.
Too often in the past, like under Ole and Mourinho, we would just throw the kitchen sink at it and then reap the short term rewards.
ETH is not perfect but we must trust the process. He was ready to sub off Malacia i.e 'one of his boys', Bruno and take off Sancho, who he has repeatedly talked up; it shows he's okay to play the hard line when it matters.
Of course it's against minnows and Ronaldo finished the game (which I don't think is a bad thing) and he may be resting those mentioned above for the Everton game so it may be short lived. However, ETH is learning and tweaking things in a really tricky situation whilst trying to get points on the board.
We had a squad that was about as far away from being suited to his Ajax style of football as you can get and he's already had to abandon parts of what he wanted to do after that Brentford game. We've just gotta be patient, he's always had a hell of a job on his hands. The football might not always be as fluid as he wants but we're 100% creating more chances.
Did he? I remember for a large time under Conte they were shit but getting results. Towards the end of the season they started to look better, but so far this season they seem to be getting results but not exactly the performances to go with it. If anyone here expects Ten Hag to make us play like Ajax in the space of a few months, he's smoking something
I'm curious as to how your square these two stances.
I'm firmly in the "I have no idea how it's going" camp, but surely if you're being cautious in judging a manager "it's just 8 games" is exactly the thing you would be saying because there's not a lot you can draw from 8 games either way, yet you're deriding people for making that statement? I am just curious as to how you don't see that as inconsistent logic.
If you can't see a difference in the way the team pass and move the ball this season compared to last season there's no hope for you. We're about 10 games in having played Liverpool, Arsenal, and Man City, so obviously we've had to be pragmatic at times. Still, I can't believe anyone could watch us at the moment and think there's no difference between this and Ole ball. Very weird.
I'd also love to know who you wanted us to get, seeing as you're unhappy about ten Hag's 'unproven' credentials.
Fans feel the manager shouldn't be criticized because it's just been 8 games. To me criticism of performances doesn't equate to judgement or calling him to be sacked.
I am not going to post anymore because apparently "I have been too negative" and mods feel that it needs citing.
I think people don't really understand ETH's style of play. They seem to think he's Pep and expect our play to resemble that style. Ajax did not play like City under ETH. They valued possession far less and actually played a lot of long balls. They had good passages of one touch football, but that was where the similarities pretty much ended.
If people actually try and see us for what we are, they will notice that we HAVE actually changed the way we play.
1. We build up with the players at the back. We have been moving the ball far better in this area of the pitch and today we did that really well again.
2. Our full backs have done well in supporting the build up play, allowing us to get to the final third far easier than we used to.
3. We play in clusters. Like Ajax, our attackers have many passages of play where they are close together and can play quick passes due to this. This has happened both on the flanks leading to an overlap and through the middle.
4. We are also defending far better in these clusters and as a result, have been far more compact than we have been in the past. Barring the City game, this has been a constant theme since our Bournemouth loss.
Right now we have two issues we have struggled with.
1. despite moving the ball up the pitch, we could still be quicker. This is getting better each game and I suspect with Casemiro getting into the eleven, will be something that becomes more fluid.
2. We have struggled to connect with our forward line. I believe this is actually an issue with our attackers, moreso than a tactical issue. I believe certain personnel have been responsible for this lack of connection. Ronaldo and Sancho are not getting into games. They are not playing with the intensity to win individual duels or make penetrative runs and are therefore not holding the ball in their area of the pitch well enough or widening the attacking area of the pitch. It makes it pretty difficult for our creative players like Bruno or Eriksen to play effective balls and has been why we haven't been bombarding teams with a plethora of clear cut chances. In addition, their lack of intensity is also evident in the press and has affected our ability to win the ball back as early as we would like to. Ronaldo is 37 and doesn't have the legs to sustain runs or win duels as effectively. I have also never liked him playing as a lone striker as I don't think he really knows how to play the role effectively outside of being a great goalscorer. Sancho needs to get himself much fitter. If he is not careful, he may never become a permanent fixture in the team moving forward. I feel both of these players coming in and playing a major part in our season affected us in these areas last season and are what are holding our attack back this season.
If people actually try and see us for what we are, they will notice that we HAVE actually changed the way we play.
1. We build up with the players at the back. We have been moving the ball far better in this area of the pitch and today we did that really well again.
2. Our full backs have done well in supporting the build up play, allowing us to get to the final third far easier than we used to.
3. We play in clusters. Like Ajax, our attackers have many passages of play where they are close together and can play quick passes due to this. This has happened both on the flanks leading to an overlap and through the middle.
4. We are also defending far better in these clusters and as a result, have been far more compact than we have been in the past. Barring the City game, this has been a constant theme since our Bournemouth loss.
Right now we have two issues we have struggled with.
1. despite moving the ball up the pitch, we could still be quicker. This is getting better each game and I suspect with Casemiro getting into the eleven, will be something that becomes more fluid.
2. We have struggled to connect with our forward line. I believe this is actually an issue with our attackers, moreso than a tactical issue. I believe certain personnel have been responsible for this lack of connection. Ronaldo and Sancho are not getting into games. They are not playing with the intensity to win individual duels or make penetrative runs and are therefore not holding the ball in their area of the pitch well enough or widening the attacking area of the pitch. It makes it pretty difficult for our creative players like Bruno or Eriksen to play effective balls and has been why we haven't been bombarding teams with a plethora of clear cut chances. In addition, their lack of intensity is also evident in the press and has affected our ability to win the ball back as early as we would like to. Ronaldo is 37 and doesn't have the legs to sustain runs or win duels as effectively. I have also never liked him playing as a lone striker as I don't think he really knows how to play the role effectively outside of being a great goalscorer. Sancho needs to get himself much fitter. If he is not careful, he may never become a permanent fixture in the team moving forward. I feel both of these players coming in and playing a major part in our season affected us in these areas last season and are what are holding our attack back this season.
It seems to me that if you don't think a manager can be judged in 8 games then you shouldn't really be criticising him in that period either, because by definition there are things that he simply hasn't had time to change or knowledge to gain? You can see how using evocative language like "papering over the cracks" (how would you tell that's whats happening after only 8 games?) and then advocating for patience is a bit pulling in both directions.
He just need to tell his players to finish off one on one chances themselves and not looking for Ronaldo.
1st half Antony goes past keeper or puts a curler into the net and the game is pretty much over. Dalot goes past keeper, whole side of the goal is open, instead of finishing it and getting another superb contribution this season, he stops everything. Game should end 2:0 or more after Martial & Rashford steps up.
Mindboggling we still give mercy to teams we should be destroying in the first half.
1st half Antony goes past keeper or puts a curler into the net and the game is pretty much over. Dalot goes past keeper, whole side of the goal is open, instead of finishing it and getting another superb contribution this season, he stops everything. Game should end 2:0 or more after Martial & Rashford steps up.
Mindboggling we still give mercy to teams we should be destroying in the first half.
We could finish 8th and I’d still back him. Sick of the managerial circus. Lets stick with one guy and see what happens.
Thank you for clarifying that. I thought I was losing my mind seeing all the negativity here. Did some people expect Messi’s tiki-Taka the first season or what? We’re miles better than all previous seasons.
Ex team mate what did you expect them to say
He’s missing a trick with Fred. In tougher games, we need to tighten the midfield and make a decision on Eriksen and Bruno, especially if the idea is to press higher up the pitch. McTominay needs to go in the bin and Casemiro needs a full run of games.
In previous seasons we don't score 3 goals against mancity at the Etihad after going four down in the first half. We would totally collapse. That alone points to a shift in mentality albeit a very minute one.
You wanted to see massive changes after 8 games but in reality it just doesn't happen. Mancity were already winning titles when Pep became manager yet he struggled to make top 4 in his first season. It took Klopp 3years to start implementing his ideas fully in the Liverpool team. Just few months ago we were making fun of Arteta in thid forum.
Players don't just change over night because of habit. It's difficult to change habit. Players like Bruno won't stop being compulsive on the ball after 3months with a new manager. The team won't start making constant off the ball runs after 11 games. It just doesn't happen.
The most positive thing for me is that ETH knows this and thus unlike LVG has decided to adopt his philosophy to suit the current players. He knows this isn't going to be a quick thing hence has decided to make changes gradually.
TH will turn us around I am sure. This season was always going to be all over the place. Hes a new manager never coached or played in the Premier. Hes never managed a big team in the 5 biggest leagues. He came into a team who were a shitfest last season, with a mishmash of players all suiting different styles on massive money and some droppable players were undroppable under previous manages.
We were just getting an head of steam up, then dont play for 4 weeks and then have to play probably the best team in the world, or as near as dammit.
These next 2 transfer windows if backed will show what he is made of and next season should show the real TH team.
We were just getting an head of steam up, then dont play for 4 weeks and then have to play probably the best team in the world, or as near as dammit.
These next 2 transfer windows if backed will show what he is made of and next season should show the real TH team.
So this emphasises my point above from a few days ago....
I don't think anybody (me included) really knew what we were getting with ETH. I suspect the Ajax supporters on here and @tjb are probably right, because that marries up with what I'm seeing on the pitch. Long balls, no focus on keeping possession, more quick transitions to exploit errors/a high line rather than force errors or create openings through guile and probing an opposition.
The more I watch us, the more I think we need to just fire-sale pretty much everyone who’s been here longer than a couple years. There’s something that’s always festered in the squad regardless of manager. We see a rare glimpse of a team with some fire, such as the Liverpool game, but its usually short lived.
We scored 2 meaningless goals in the last few minutes after the result became 6-1 and City stopped playing. Are you seriously considering this as a positive?
We totally collapsed, indeed.
Mental isn't it. They could've out 10 past us if they wanted
agreed. some of our players seemed to have been absorbed into certain "chicken" loser mentality content with mediocrity and sh&t themselves when there is pressure. Lindelof, De Gea, Shaw are great examples of players plagued by such mentality.
We all said he will need a lot of time. Seems for a lot of people, they just can't handle it.
We have a frankenstein team with so many players that can't play a possession game with any intensity without wasting so many passes.
He's 13 or so games into a new club that needs a lot of work.
Some of you here simply don't understand how difficult a task he has on his hands.
We have a frankenstein team with so many players that can't play a possession game with any intensity without wasting so many passes.
He's 13 or so games into a new club that needs a lot of work.
Some of you here simply don't understand how difficult a task he has on his hands.
I don’t think we played that badly last night. We dominated the game and a shocking error led to their goal. It’s hard to breakdown teams that play with 10 men behind the ball.
We also could have scored a lot more but the whole team was engaged in trying to get Ronaldo to score, which was weird and I hope they get told off for it.
Their second goal was comical, but the level in our back four always drops when Varane is not involved. All in all we got the win so no need for the pitchforks.
We also could have scored a lot more but the whole team was engaged in trying to get Ronaldo to score, which was weird and I hope they get told off for it.
Their second goal was comical, but the level in our back four always drops when Varane is not involved. All in all we got the win so no need for the pitchforks.
And Sancho is coming along nicely in that regard too. Its been long noted that given enough time, more or less all players that come here follow the same trajectory. They all end up in the gutter, bereft of confidence, and terrified of the ball. We lost the City game before they’d even stepped onto the pitch and that’s something that has plagued us for years. For me, its something that has circulated among the players and the only way to get rid is to rip it out and start fresh.
The biggest challenge for ETH I think will be deciding on a settled first 11. I think the preferred back 4 is obvious.
I'm still not convinced on the most balanced midfield and our attacking players are still too inconsistent and often missing in the big games.
I'm still not convinced on the most balanced midfield and our attacking players are still too inconsistent and often missing in the big games.
To add to your post regarding Guardiola, he took over from Pellegrini who had finished 4th before departing the club and Guardiola could only match Pellegrini's 4th place finish in his first season at the club after spending over £200m. And in his second season, the City owners backed him with £300m and he had spent £500m in his first two seasons at the club.
As long as City have owners who are prepared to spend big and absorb the hit on failed transfers, they will stay competitive with or without Guardiola. The amount of investment their owners have put into the club from the youth to the first team is unmatched by the Glazers. And I think it will get worse because the financial situation doesn't look great currently and ClearLake Capital and the Saudi Public Investment Fund at both Chelsea and Newcastle will also be a problem unless the Glazers sell to someone with the will and capital to financially boost the youth and the first team and hence make us more competitive.
This, a lot of our fanbase is spoilt and entitled and talk a big game about tearing it down etc but they don't have the stomach for it.
I said before ten Hag was appointed that it would take longer for him to implement his methods due to his methods involving both a on the ball positional game and a off the ball positional game. And I said ten Hag isn't a copy of Guardiola , because he's not wedded to a particular way of playing the game and he thus combines zonal and positional control with a fast transition, high intensity play-style with the aim of going direct, if needs be in a vertical axis. But that all depends on the game situation and the players he has at his disposal.
Even at Ajax it took him 6 months to quell doubts amongst the fans and media. But like I've said in the past, his aim is to create a team which fits his vision on how he wants to play the game. And his vision is to create a team that will look to exert, zonal and positional control in possession with emphasis on verticality and attempt to dominate the game. He's someone that is a cross between Guardiola and Klopp in playing style, where his teams have shown the ability to both display a controlled rest phase in possession and also transition into a team that is prepared to go ultra vertical by bypassing the midfield. And his approach is dependent on the calibre of players at his disposal and the relevant strength of the opponent.
So our current team isn't playing in his image right now but there's been glimpses of his principles and structures in games. And it will take time for him to teach and coach those principles where training the team both practically and mentally will take time where what they learn to do in practice must become repetition in their minds. And once that happens, a rhythm develops on the pitch.
Even at Ajax it took him 6 months to quell doubts amongst the fans and media. But like I've said in the past, his aim is to create a team which fits his vision on how he wants to play the game. And his vision is to create a team that will look to exert, zonal and positional control in possession with emphasis on verticality and attempt to dominate the game. He's someone that is a cross between Guardiola and Klopp in playing style, where his teams have shown the ability to both display a controlled rest phase in possession and also transition into a team that is prepared to go ultra vertical by bypassing the midfield. And his approach is dependent on the calibre of players at his disposal and the relevant strength of the opponent.
So our current team isn't playing in his image right now but there's been glimpses of his principles and structures in games. And it will take time for him to teach and coach those principles where training the team both practically and mentally will take time where what they learn to do in practice must become repetition in their minds. And once that happens, a rhythm develops on the pitch.
That is just not true. We had a record for coming back from losing positions to win games under Ole if I remember correctly.
You do, but last season you even lost that, and in the end that was a big part of why Ole had to go. United conceded far too many goals under him, but as long as the skill and self-belief was there to turn it around, results were ok.
Yeah but I think Ole became a scapegoat for a terrible season and squad building. Don't get me wrong Ole deserved the sack by playing favorites and not being willing to drop underperforming players, but I don't think Ole was the sole reason for our bad season. And I don't expect any manager to be able to fix this situation quickly.
However at the end of that day - I was the happiest as a United fan from Jan 2020 when we signed Bruno til the end of 2021 season since Fergie. And I'm very pessimistic about us getting back to that level for a long time - even if we got Pep or Klopp as our manager.
Agreed. He's only been here five minutes; it's going to take time for any manager to turn this squad around. ETH has identified the weaknesses we have been talking about for ages, namely the defence and central midfield, and has acted there. That's a huge positive. It's clear that confidence is very fragile at the moment, and we are capable of conceding a goal at any moment. This first season has to be about building the foundations for future success, and at times it won't be pretty. We have to allow ETH to do his work, and we must accept there will be short term problems. He has a huge job on his hands.
We can criticise performances and results, but we must be aware of the context of our overall situation.
That was unbelievable to read. I mean they are just sucking up to him. Not like he is their best friend. Just be diplomatic but don't go selling lies to us.
Yes, there is no quick fix. And I feel like United currently is on a similar level in regard to results and how games go as in the better times under Ole. Which isn't good enough in the long run, but definitely an improvement on Ole's later matches, so the direction is right but it will take time.
Great post. Agree with so much here.
This is absolutely spot on.
You could see it clearly last night in the first 20 minutes or so. Our attack narrowed and played intricate little passes between them.
It is really coming on well, I have high hopes. There will be more set backs (hopefully none as bad as sunday) but I think it will pay off longer term.
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