Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[mav_9me]

The football may not have been pretty yesterday but it’s nonsense to suggest it’s like that all season. We’ve played good stuff in patches, most enjoyable since fergie in my opinion.
people need to calm down, there are no quick fixes, the job has just begun

Amen.

 

[caid]

Both fullbacks being booked in the first 5 mins really didn't help yesterday

 

[RedOrange]

Both fullbacks being booked in the first 5 mins really didn't help yesterday

Malacia's booking wasn't really his fault. Rashford made a backward pass to no one and Foden ran on to it, so Malacia had to foul him.

Dalot looked like he panicked a bit for his yellow. Hopefully that's something that will improve with more big match experience.

 

[caid]

Malacia's booking wasn't really his fault. Rashford made a backward pass to no one and Foden ran on to it, so Malacia had to foul him.

Dalot looked like he panicked a bit for his yellow. Hopefully that's something that will improve with more big match experience.

Its not really an issue of fault, or even the referee being harsh. It just made the match very difficult.
I could see a plan to set up really aggressively and try to turn the game into a bit of a derby day wrestling match and how that'd get thrown out the window when you get 2 bookings from 2 challenges. Maybe the wingers originally set up to play high and hit them on the break have to drop back and support the full backs now.

We didn't play well in the first half. On the ball more so than off it. Defensively i'm finding it hard to really fault anyone despite conceding 6 goals which is weird. Grealish is a pain to get the ball off at the best of times and when hes isolated against a right back on a yellow its not going to end well. They had good movement, they had great finishing. All our defenders probably got a block or two and Malacia was close to a goal line clearance. Varane's injury and the 2nd and 3rd goal coming from that basically ended the game and again its hard to hold fault, we should probably be better organised so we dont go from Varane to Eriksen covering the biggest danger on corners. We should probably sit in for a couple of minutes after kick off so our possibly injured centre back doesn't end up in a footrace against Haaland. They're details, they're important, especially against a team who are better than us. They're not fundamental issues that can't be resolved.
I dont really remember the rest of their goals to be honest. They barely mattered at that point. Both teams made a lot of changes and we probably ended the match better than we started but it was already over.

 

[alexthelion]

Rashford LW, Ronaldo #9, Fred and Casemiro CM and Eriksen #10.

And NOT to high press. We should not have committed to a high press vs City when the players aren't capable.

Ronaldo should be nowhere near the team.

If he's fit, Martial has to start at #9.

 

[Foxbatt]

Its not really an issue of fault, or even the referee being harsh. It just made the match very difficult.
I could see a plan to set up really aggressively and try to turn the game into a bit of a derby day wrestling match and how that'd get thrown out the window when you get 2 bookings from 2 challenges. Maybe the wingers originally set up to play high and hit them on the break have to drop back and support the full backs now.

We didn't play well in the first half. On the ball more so than off it. Defensively i'm finding it hard to really fault anyone despite conceding 6 goals which is weird. Grealish is a pain to get the ball off at the best of times and when hes isolated against a right back on a yellow its not going to end well. They had good movement, they had great finishing. All our defenders probably got a block or two and Malacia was close to a goal line clearance. Varane's injury and the 2nd and 3rd goal coming from that basically ended the game and again its hard to hold fault, we should probably be better organised so we dont go from Varane to Eriksen covering the biggest danger on corners. We should probably sit in for a couple of minutes after kick off so our possibly injured centre back doesn't end up in a footrace against Haaland. They're details, they're important, especially against a team who are better than us. They're not fundamental issues that can't be resolved.
I dont really remember the rest of their goals to be honest. They barely mattered at that point. Both teams made a lot of changes and we probably ended the match better than we started but it was already over.

It's like the old hammering under SAF. Yes on that day we could have cut the score down but we went for it. In hindsight we should have shut up shop but we didn't.
Two important things struck me. The lack of ball control of our players and the terrible passing.
Now any decent player will control and pass the ball if under no pressure. It's what they do under pressure that counts. We are normally so poor. It started from the time of Jose and has continued.

 

[GaryLifo]

It's like the old hammering under SAF. Yes on that day we could have cut the score down but we went for it. In hindsight we should have shut up shop but we didn't.
Two important things struck me. The lack of ball control of our players and the terrible passing.
Now any decent player will control and pass the ball if under no pressure. It's what they do under pressure that counts. We are normally so poor. It started from the time of Jose and has continued.

Our inability to control possession and dictate the tempo of games against sides like Brentford, Palace, Norwich, Newcastle, Leicester, Southampton over recent years has driven me absolutely crazy. I'm really hoping that this changes over Ten Hag's time at United.

 

[Stacks]

We've been stale for the most part. Leicester, Southampton & the EL were a snooze

honestly don't know what they are seeing. I have rarely been impressed by how we played. I feel Eth has a cult following like all our new managers do. Hopefully he does well but obviously he has to prove himself as imo he has done next to nothing to have the reputation and faith he currently has.

 

[Skills]

honestly don't know what they are seeing. I have rarely been impressed by how we played. I feel Eth has a cult following like all our new managers do. Hopefully he does well but obviously he has to prove himself as imo he has done next to nothing to have the reputation and faith he currently has.

We're in the manager shits gold phase of his tenure.

 

[Leftback99]

honestly don't know what they are seeing. I have rarely been impressed by how we played. I feel Eth has a cult following like all our new managers do. Hopefully he does well but obviously he has to prove himself as imo he has done next to nothing to have the reputation and faith he currently has.

He's still in the phase where we assume he's got a good plan and will be able to implement it. There has been very little sign of it on the pitch so far despite the 4 wins. If anything he has already gone away from how he originally wanted to play (first two games) and now we're caught between that and an Ole style counter attacking side.

 

[sullydnl]

If we're assessing ETH thus far, everything should be viewed through the prism of us having had roughly the second worst opening fixtures of any team in the league.

At which point it becomes difficult to put much weight in any complaints about our progress or lack thereof. Because no shit getting the team to play the way you want is harder when you're coming up against the tougher teams.

 

[Red Dreams]

I have full faith in him too but he’s not Jesus. The league is beyond our current capabilities

You are making the mangers argument for players in January.
The dividend taking parasites will not help the club become champions.
While we wait for the summer "budget" well run clubs will have strengthened. and we will once more be behind them.
Until these owners are removed from the equation, we are done.

Lest we forget. This squad that is not up to the task is in the current state due to them.

 

[Giggsyking]

 

[golden_blunder]

You are making the mangers argument for players in January.
The dividend taking parasites will not help the club become champions.
While we wait for the summer "budget" well run clubs will have strengthened. and we will once more be behind them.
Until these owners are removed from the equation, we are done.

Lest we forget. This squad that is not up to the task is in the current state due to them.

You’re the one who said we will win the league despite loads telling you that you’re off your trolley

 

[Andycoleno9]

He is creating unnecessary pressure to himself. You got 70 mil dmc who is labelled as one of the best in the world and you don't play him because Scott fecking Mctominay played well few games.
This summer he decided to keep Ronaldo and Maguire while it was obvious that they don't fit in his style.

 

[GaryLifo]

He is creating unnecessary pressure to himself. You got 70 mil dmc who is labelled as one of the best in the world and you don't play him because Scott fecking Mctominay played well few games.
This summer he decided to keep Ronaldo and Maguire while it was obvious that they don't fit in his style.

He didn't decide to keep Ronaldo. No other team wanted him on the wages he is on. We are stuck with him until the end of the season.

 

[avgp_1]

Yeah this was a very well made goal.

 

[RedOrange]

Not being able to move the ball around under pressure like they are showing in this clip is the exact reason for the losses to Brentford and Brighton. If they can do that consistently then things are looking up.

It's good to see De Gea making a longer pass over the pressing forwards to the fullback, too. He would have panicked and kicked the ball out of play earlier in the season.

 

[DSG]

I'm not really in disagreement with you and there was a time when I felt the same way about how we should go about navigating certain games. But that was in 2014, and the defeat to Leicester City in Van Gaal's first season at the club, when we lost 5-3 after leading 3-1, made him go defensive. And I think that was a mistake, because we did alot of good in that game but the bad overshadowed the good over 90 minutes. And for me personally Van Gaal should've tried minimising the bad and encouraging the good stuff on the training ground but he instead decided to take the cautious route. And that for me contributed towards his downfall and created a environment where we were playing a brand of football that was low intensity from a bygone era.

Solskjaer went on record and said he wanted to replicate the high pressing football of Jurgen Klopp, but ended up taking the cautious route which got us a couple of top 4 finishes, but we didn't evolve as a team, get close to replicating the high pressing football of Jurgen Klopp or even compete for the league title in his 2/3 years at the club. And one game that epitomises my thoughts, is the game against Spurs in 2020, when we set out to impose ourselves on Spurs and they countered us and ended up scoring 6 goals. And Solskjaer in his post match interview, made it clear that wouldn't be happening again, and we again reverted to playing a cautious brand of football with the emphasis on defensive stability as a priority. That would change after the arrivals of Sancho, Varane and Ronaldo, where Solskjaer would again attempt to attempt to play a more expansive game but the wheels completely fell off and he lost his job. Three years of trying to 'play like Jurgen' and we didn't get close.

Under Mourinho we finished second one season but I do remember saying on the forum at the time about Liverpool looking the more dangerous team in the long-run due to their proactive approach towards the game. Whilst our reactive approach wasn't sustainable when up against the more proactive and adventurous minds in the league.

Jurgen Klopp at Liverpool stayed consistent with his ideals in his early days at Liverpool where his team suffered a number of heavy defeats whilst he was in trial and error mode. And he was going game by game and working towards creating a team that was going to fit with his ideals and vision in the mid to long-term. So when they lost 5-0 away to Man City, it didn't deter him from trying to improve upon the mistakes and trying the same again in the next game. That's how you evolve as a football team, and Arteta at Arsenal is another example of a young upcoming coach who after 3 years has implemented a dominant play style after many ups and downs.

I don't have a issue with anyone thinking we should've maybe played a extra DM and had Bruno on the bench against City. But my own opinion right now is to see us attempting to play a more proactive brand of football within reason, and taking each opponent relative to their strengths. I think we will learn much more if we carry on with such a approach against a Man City, who I was half expecting to beat us before the game started. And when you approach games on the front foot, the weaker players in the setup will stick out like a sore thumb, and that will hopefully enable ten Hag to quickly move players on.

It's about executing the plan and not running away and reverting to type because we lost one or two games imo. We have to look at the bigger picture and stay firm in our beliefs and evolve as a football club.

Why can’t we alter tactics based on opponent a la Real Madrid? Why does it have to be a dogmatic investment in one style of play? Last I checked, Real is the most successful club in the last decade and cannot be defined as either a gegenpressing team nor a tiki taka team.

I think the Caf is obsessed with Klopp and Pep and a definitive style rather than pure results. There are other managers out there who have actually won as much or more than those two but are actually pretty damn pragmatic, Zidane and Ancelotti to name two…

 

[RetroStu]

He is creating unnecessary pressure to himself. You got 70 mil dmc who is labelled as one of the best in the world and you don't play him because Scott fecking Mctominay played well few games.
This summer he decided to keep Ronaldo and Maguire while it was obvious that they don't fit in his style.

I'd like to see a run of games with Casimero and Fred together, with Eriksen in front of them. Brazil apparently have a really good record with Casimero and Fred together.
I'm not sure why Casemiro isnt getting games to be honest, he cant be that unfit.

 

[Adnan]

Why can’t we alter tactics based on opponent a la Real Madrid? Why does it have to be a dogmatic investment in one style of play? Last I checked, Real is the most successful club in the last decade and cannot be defined as either a gegenpressing team nor a tiki taka team.

I think the Caf is obsessed with Klopp and Pep and a definitive style rather than pure results. There are other managers out there who have actually won as much or more than those two but are actually pretty damn pragmatic, Zidane and Ancelotti to name two…

This isn't about changing a style but rather about failing to do the basics of closing space which the teams you mention do well. Antony for example was applying pressure but Dalot behind him was awol and it allowed City to comfortably overload the right wide and half space which created gaps in our midfield and our back-line was forced to retreat. Real Madrid do these things extremely well.

Then you have players in our team who give the ball away too easily against technically secure teams which is a crime in itself. Real Madrid have players who are courageous on the ball and take the the initiative in possesion something we haven't come close to matching since Fergie was at the helm.

Real Madrid are a team who take the initiative and have players with the craft and guile to either play a more conservative game or a more proactive game by taking the initiative and dominating the ball. We're a long way from replicating Real Madrid both technically and tactically.

 

[RedOrange]

Why can’t we alter tactics based on opponent a la Real Madrid? Why does it have to be a dogmatic investment in one style of play? Last I checked, Real is the most successful club in the last decade and cannot be defined as either a gegenpressing team nor a tiki taka team.

I think the Caf is obsessed with Klopp and Pep and a definitive style rather than pure results. There are other managers out there who have actually won as much or more than those two but are actually pretty damn pragmatic, Zidane and Ancelotti to name two…

Playing out from the back through a heavy press isn't something managers can just tell their squad to do here and there. The squad actually has to be proficient and confident with it or it ends up like the Brentford game. Same deal for counter pressing, playing with a high line, etc.

The confidence can only be built by doing it in real matches, so there is inevitably an uncomfortable teething process, especially with players who haven't played in a team that does it before (i.e. everyone in the squad except Martinez and Antony).

 

[bosskeano]

some of that positional play and pattern play was very good.....however, what was the one thing that you noticed was missing in that build up??

 

[Marwood]

Modern football is such a drag. 13 passes between goalkeepers and the back four just to get us around the halfway line.

That move still didn't result in an actual chance.

 

[caid]

Why can’t we alter tactics based on opponent a la Real Madrid? Why does it have to be a dogmatic investment in one style of play? Last I checked, Real is the most successful club in the last decade and cannot be defined as either a gegenpressing team nor a tiki taka team.

I think the Caf is obsessed with Klopp and Pep and a definitive style rather than pure results. There are other managers out there who have actually won as much or more than those two but are actually pretty damn pragmatic, Zidane and Ancelotti to name two…

Because its not the preference of the manager we hired. Its not how he coaches teams. Mourinho and Solskjaer altered their tactics and were pragmatic, it didn't automatically make them good or successful. I dont even think Real change their style ever. Theres no such thing as a gegenpressing or tiki taka team

 

[Red Dreams]

You’re the one who said we will win the league despite loads telling you that you’re off your trolley

Now you are making my argument.

I have always said the manager needs to be supported in January.

 

[Stig]

There is a lot of talk nowadays about pressing. Does it mean running and tying to tackle or intercept the ball to get it back when you've lost possession?

If so, that's what we did a junior school.

Why is it now a science rather than basic football ?

 

[RedOrange]

There is a lot of talk nowadays about pressing. Does it mean running and tying to tackle or intercept the ball to get it back when you've lost possession?

If so, that's what we did a junior school.

Why is it now a science rather than basic football ?

Individual players can press but if a whole team is going to press as a strategy, it is generally meant that several players will press at once in a coordinated way. It's fine for a forward to run at a defender with the ball, but the other players need to run at the immediate passing options or your opponent will easily pass through it and take advantage of how many players you've committed forward.

The other thing is that a team has to decide when they're going to press and when they're going to drop back and get into a defensive shape. It takes some time to teach players the correct situations to press, and everyone has to know it well or the press won't work. Few teams press all the time without the ball, because often the situation isn't favourable for it, and because you can't have players make too many sprints or they will become exhausted.

 

[caid]

There is a lot of talk nowadays about pressing. Does it mean running and tying to tackle or intercept the ball to get it back when you've lost possession?

If so, that's what we did a junior school.

Why is it now a science rather than basic football ?

Because its coordianted between 4+ players now. Because you dont want your players chasing shadows and getting dragged around the pitch for 90 mins. You want to set traps and bait that trigger these coordianted presses at specific times and stay in formation and sit at other times to make it hard to pass between the lines and so you can recover energy.

 

[golden_blunder]

Now you are making my argument.

I have always said the manager needs to be supported in January.

But you are the one that doubled down that we could run the league

 

[VP89]

Modern football is such a drag. 13 passes between goalkeepers and the back four just to get us around the halfway line.

That move still didn't result in an actual chance.

Exactly. I had pointless twitter clips like that.

 

[pocco]

A few United supporters have said to me this week that doubts are starting to creep in about ETH. Not just based on Sunday but everything they've seen so far this season.

Anybody else having doubts or concerns?

 

[TheReligion]

He is creating unnecessary pressure to himself. You got 70 mil dmc who is labelled as one of the best in the world and you don't play him because Scott fecking Mctominay played well few games.
This summer he decided to keep Ronaldo and Maguire while it was obvious that they don't fit in his style.

Let’s not make things up

 

[TheReligion]

A few United supporters have said to me this week that doubts are starting to creep in about ETH. Not just based on Sunday but everything they've seen so far this season.

Anybody else having doubts or concerns?

Think they are daft sorry. Or have zero understanding of what needs to be done.

 

[Andy_Cole]

A few United supporters have said to me this week that doubts are starting to creep in about ETH. Not just based on Sunday but everything they've seen so far this season.

Anybody else having doubts or concerns?

Not doubts. Just pessimistic. It’s been a tough 9 years.

 

[DSG]

This isn't about changing a style but rather about failing to do the basics of closing space which the teams you mention do well. Antony for example was applying pressure but Dalot behind him was awol and it allowed City to comfortably overload the right wide and half space which created gaps in our midfield and our back-line was forced to retreat. Real Madrid do these things extremely well.

Then you have players in our team who give the ball away too easily against technically secure teams which is a crime in itself. Real Madrid have players who are courageous on the ball and take the the initiative in possesion something we haven't come close to matching since Fergie was at the helm.

Real Madrid are a team who take the initiative and have players with the craft and guile to either play a more conservative game or a more proactive game by taking the initiative and dominating the ball. We're a long way from replicating Real Madrid both technically and tactically.

You’re talking about a few things here. Dalot being clueless defensively (I agree). The giveaways are an issue (I agree). Now, some of this, of course, is coaching and system. Some of it, to be fair, is a personnel issue. Scott McTominay will never be mistaken for Xavi. He’s basically a blunt instrument and he’s going to give the ball away. Dalot’s absolute ceiling as a defender is mediocre or slightly sub par.

what you were intimating in your previous post was the ETH should have the courage to implement his style of football, no matter what, results be damned. I sense that you thought Ole and LvG were a bit chickenshit in that they didn’t follow through. A couple of points here: How do we know the purist form of ETH football can consistently beat Pep’s purist football? We don’t. Actually, the only team in the world that might match up to City is Bayern, but I still think City would out-possess them. Anyhow, I’m encouraged by Ten Hag’s pragmatic approach. I think he had a good game plan vs City, we just didn’t follow it, and we probably don’t have the squad yet.

A note on Real… they had less possession vs PSG, City and Liverpool on the way to the CL title. They were very compact, defended heroically at times, but basically changed their tactics to fit their opponent. Playing 4 central midfielders and looking to release Vinicius was a masterstroke in tactics by Ancelotti. Yes, they have world class players, but they also realized they aren’t a high press team or possession centric team and have found a way to win despite not having a definitive style. What’s wrongwith that?

 

[DSG]

Because its not the preference of the manager we hired. Its not how he coaches teams. Mourinho and Solskjaer altered their tactics and were pragmatic, it didn't automatically make them good or successful. I dont even think Real change their style ever. Theres no such thing as a gegenpressing or tiki taka team

It’s not? How do you know that? I’ve seen a manager in ETH that has had quite pragmatic instructions during the Liverpool and Arsenal matches. We have altered tactics based on our opponents.

‘There is a lot of snobbery in the Caf about trendy tactical philosophies that we must implement in order to win trophies. SAF was probably the most pragmatic manager ever in terms of picking sides and tactics to attack opponent’s weaknesses.

 

[Skills]

A few United supporters have said to me this week that doubts are starting to creep in about ETH. Not just based on Sunday but everything they've seen so far this season.

Anybody else having doubts or concerns?

Of course. I think the approach to the entire summer window was wrong which is disheartening considering the amount we spent.

And on the pitch, I'm just confused at our approach.

You can say he needs time citing Arteta. But Eddie Howe had a more profound effect on Newcastle than ETH on us so far.

 

[DSG]

Playing out from the back through a heavy press isn't something managers can just tell their squad to do here and there. The squad actually has to be proficient and confident with it or it ends up like the Brentford game. Same deal for counter pressing, playing with a high line, etc.

The confidence can only be built by doing it in real matches, so there is inevitably an uncomfortable teething process, especially with players who haven't played in a team that does it before (i.e. everyone in the squad except Martinez and Antony).

Playing out from the back is a small part of overall tactics. Most teams are doing it now — even bad ones — and it really doesn’t have a huge impact on how you attack in the final third, whether you press high, etc.

I agree that we’ve been woeful playing through the high press, but that’s been an issue since Ole. We’ve literally been working on it for several years. I’ve come to the conclusion that both Fred and Scotty aren’t good enough to play in that midfield 2in a 4231. They rarely can play a one touch pass, they are poor at looking over their shoulder and turning, and they are inaccurate forward passers. DeGea is pretty awful at distribution. I think you have to make personnel changes there, and possibly at RB before we’ll be able to play through the high press with any consistency.

 

[Adnan]

You’re talking about a few things here. Dalot being clueless defensively (I agree). The giveaways are an issue (I agree). Now, some of this, of course, is coaching and system. Some of it, to be fair, is a personnel issue. Scott McTominay will never be mistaken for Xavi. He’s basically a blunt instrument and he’s going to give the ball away. Dalot’s absolute ceiling as a defender is mediocre or slightly sub par.

what you were intimating in your previous post was the ETH should have the courage to implement his style of football, no matter what, results be damned. I sense that you thought Ole and LvG were a bit chickenshit in that they didn’t follow through. A couple of points here: How do we know the purist form of ETH football can consistently beat Pep’s purist football? We don’t. Actually, the only team in the world that might match up to City is Bayern, but I still think City would out-possess them. Anyhow, I’m encouraged by Ten Hag’s pragmatic approach. I think he had a good game plan vs City, we just didn’t follow it, and we probably don’t have the squad yet.

A note on Real… they had less possession vs PSG, City and Liverpool on the way to the CL title. They were very compact, defended heroically at times, but basically changed their tactics to fit their opponent. Playing 4 central midfielders and looking to release Vinicius was a masterstroke in tactics by Ancelotti. Yes, they have world class players, but they also realized they aren’t a high press team or possession centric team and have found a way to win despite not having a definitive style. What’s wrongwith that?

I'm explaining to you why we lost the game, and we lost the game because we failed to do the basics. And yes I hope we can regroup and come back with a positive approach and look to impose our game on the opposition and be courageous on the ball and take the initiative. Because the last 9 years have shown that we've failed to construct a team that plays with a high tempo play style which has badly effected performance over the long-term and there's been a knock on effect on the results.

And regarding Man City, they're a club backed by a nation state who have a great coach. But even Guardiola in his first season at the club wasn't doing well if you listened to the City fans and City journos who thought City had made a mistake in hiring him. Because the teething problems are very real, and in Guardiola's second season at the club, Abu Dhabi splashed almost £300m on players that Guardiola wanted and took his total spend in his first two seasons to about £500m.

The Champions League is a cup competition where I can give you examples of most managers ceding possession in knockout ties. But Real Madrid are a team who have for decades been a proactive attacking team in both the league and cups who have the ability/versatility to transition to be a more conservative team or a team chasing the game by taking the initiative.