Thank feck for you Adnan, honestly wading through threads like this filled with nonsensical shite is worth it to read your well-researched, level-headed and informative posts.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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I'd suggest you take your own advice and save yourself the five minutes of typing stuff like that. If it is sooo difficult to react to criticism for some folks in here, I'd suggest a second thread where no criticism is allowed. Could save us all a lot of time.
It sure is, but I guess many have had question as soon as the lineup dropped. I for sure did but thought, not bad, he is brave is trying to take them on. But then he didn't. If the proactive approach doesn't do you any favors in terms of attacking, what are the benefits then?
From after the game until now, I haven't seen anybody suggesting going ultra defensive. People asked if we should have added an actual DM to the team or exchange Bruno or Eriksen for another midfield player. If that is ultra defensive for you, then ok. It isn't for many others I guess.
I agree and disagree Adnan.
I don't think he was absolutely correct. He got his pants pulled down and spanked. Two late goals in garbage time masked a dismal performance on the pitch and off it. The game plan was indeed to go toe to toe with city and ETH miscalculated badly. I love all the system stuff but the GOAT Fergie taught us there is room for pragmatism. Sometimes you win ugly. Winning is what matters. Winning is in our DNA.
I do agree I'm more confident now than under Ole and that we need time and patience. We are 9 games in for fecks sake. ETH has shown a commitment to his rules and principles and I agree with the passage I bolded. It's fraud hunting season.
I have full faith in him too but he’s not Jesus. The league is beyond our current capabilities
Not saying you're wrong, but he instantly chose to be more pragmatic when we got smacked 4-0 by Brentford. We stopped building play out from the back almost entirely after that.
He could've realized we weren't ready to press a team that's possibly the best in the world at evading the press. Even against Liverpool our pressing worked for about 25 mins and they were constantly beating the press afterwards. The thing that won the Pool game was dogged defending and not the system.
Honestly, we were only slightly effective at pressing sides like Sociedad and Southampton. Sociedad beat the press a few times but they aren't as good offensively as City so they couldn't do much with the ball before we got back in shape. We could very easily have sat back and countered effectively instead of trying to press their CBs and exposing gaping holes in the midfield. Go on and play your practice pressing matches against lesser opposition.
Thank God for common sense. These dumbos above him would put Rashford on £400k/week if it's up to them
I hope he gives a midfield 3 of Casemiro-Fred-Eriksen a try.
Excellent piece in the Guardian tonight from Barney Ronay: "......it was there on Casemiro’s face as he came on with the game already dead, having worked his way through five Champions League medals only to discover that, in fact, he’s not as good as Scott McTominay. So, some useful information there for the Brazilian. Ten Hag is the latest United manager caught between ill-fitting celebrity signings and coherent team building. A 37-year-old celebrity black hole was never likely to be a Ten Hag kind of guy. But not starting Casemiro, a midfielder who has been the best in the world in his role, made very little sense."
Of course, it's all hypothetical now, but it isn't just hindsight. I watched the match with my dad and brother, and as soon as we saw it was the same team as against Arsenal we all said, "too open." Going to The Etihad with such an attacking line up is brave, but it's also risky and it backfired. Some folk on the match thread also said the same thing. Of course, some people are never happy, true, but it isn't unreasonable to say we could have made it more difficult for City. 4-0 at half-time is disgraceful. I think it was the ideal game to pack the midfield with tacklers and hard workers; instead we had huge gaps all over the pitch.
I like Ten Hag thus far and think he has a plan for the future, but I think he got it wrong yesterday. He's only just in the door and is finding out about the Premier League. There will be lots for him to learn along the way.
Great post, I'm a really big fan of EtH and everything he's doing but he made mistakes yesterday and didn't act fast enough to change them. I also think its now time to put in Casemiro and let him play himself into form.
I know it is still quite a unpopular opinion and one I have been castigated on here for, but Bruno is a liability and should not start for us moving forward.
There are two flips to that coin.. Going forward, ETH needs to be ruthless, and award commitment from players. Mc’Tominay earned this start. But not the next. Has to be this way.
This is worse than Moyes banning chips!
The Casemiro thing is strange, not because Ten Hag isn't picking him but more that such an incredible defensive midfielder looks so shaky when he comes on. I think there's the reason why we're not seeing him.
I guess you could say that such a player needs to play himself into form with a run of matches but with the fixtures we have in the coming month I expect him to get games, Ronaldo too. Hopefully Casemiro and Fred/Mctom can form a good partnership
The fact that this has to be said. You can already see why with zero experience he was our defacto Dof in the summer. Bar is low enough. He's the one clued in to what a stable organisation should look like.
I wouldn't mind giving VDB a go in a midfield trio. We can't keep this 4-2-3-1 going it just doesn't suit our players. I said the same under Ole. A hard working midfield trio is needed. I'd go VDB Casemiro and Fred. Something different needs to be tried, and fast! I'd even go a 4-3-2-1 with Anthony and Bruno behind Martial. Sancho and Rashford are complete and utter rubbish and shouldn't be any more than squad players.
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Yes! But seriously it is a very sensible call from Ten Hag. There have been some terrible decisions made at Man United as regards new contracts awarded before a player has proved they deserve it e.g. Bruno Fernandes & David DeGea and one that will go down in PL History: Phil Jones.
I never thought anyone would out-do Winston Bogarde at Chelsea (£40,000 a week between 2000 and 2004 & made 9 appearances). But Phil Jones must be coming close to beating that on a pounds per minutes on the pitch basis.
It's not an excellent piece, it is a lazy, out of context narrative that is typical of the mediocre football "journalism" that comes from England. When we won 4 on the bounce, where was this type of "analysis"? Why would Ten Hag unsettle a midfield that was playing well? He was bedding Casemiro to a new style, a new team and a new league. Will he see gradually see more and more game time? Of course.
It is also worth noting that Casemiro often starts the season slowly for Real Madrid.
Couldn’t disagree more which is strange cause I usually don’t stray far from most of your posts.
Nobody wants us playing on the counter forever! But that’s not what ETH is about so we we know that it’s gonna take time and we don’t need to panic. For now though, at the outset, being conservative 20% of the season (so as to not be humiliated) while drilling in the principles for the other 80% is hardly continuing on the same old same old. That’s such a narrow way of looking at it. Allowing your team to adapt against really top sides when you are at the beginning of a process is just common sense.
That 20% becomes 15% after Xmas, 10% after another summer and then maybe next season…when we are sure that our fuking wingers know that they can’t just not track runs, or our CAM can press coherently and not waste possession, our striker can occupy centre halves, our CMs don’t shit a brick when they get the ball because we have no options to play forward…when all that is in place…then you go to the Etihad and set up to take the game to the best coach in the world who manages the best team in the world and who have the best striker in the world going through the hottest hot streak in the history of the world….none of that seems naive to you?
Liverpool at home last season stays in the history books…and so will yesterday. Being humiliated counts. No one remembers the draws you grind out…and how boring you were and plenty of teams and coaches have gotten back on top without having to be humiliated time and time again.
Utds coaches have been naïve over the last few seasons due to the weight and expectation of the badge and the history. Notwithstanding the fact that they didn’t have the same basic ingredients that created that history…great managers, great teams…hard fuking work. Get that in place before you just take teams on and think the badge is going to count for anything when you can’t play 3 passes in a row!
I think ETH will get there, he is rooting out the deadwood, making good signings and making the right noises. But if he, and naive fans with opinions Like yours are not careful, he will try too hard too soon to play the “mythical” Utd way and he won’t be given a chance to achieve what the majority of us think he can.
He can get a pass for that because he isn't working with the same sample of information we think we have. He just got here and will be more willing to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. The Mctominay thing is something that needs to be learnt with firsthand experience, specifically the ugly drop off when he's thrown into midfield battles. Like any other rotation level player his abilities have huge asterisks, like when afforded time on the ball he looks like baby-matic, when he has to defend huge spaces he turns to washed up Matic. His mobility and reading are limited. That's pretty much the roadmap of how to deploy his talents. No matter how well he performs on the good days don't throw him into tough assignments. He's a useful utility player so we can stop trying to turn him into Carrick or prime Matic.
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Fecking FINALLY!
ETH showed who can and can't stand up, and showing that the team is trying to move forward.
95% of teams going to the Etihad will come away with 0 points - so it's really not that huge in the grand scheme of things. Sure, it's our rivals and we hate to lose against them, but credit where it's due, they are most likely the best team in Europe right now and we're at least a few years in the making.
I can understand the manager not being involved in the initial contract offer for a new signing since it’s purely financial, but did they seriously not have the final say when it came to extensions? Was Judge deciding who was worthy or not? Feck me.
Not playing Ronaldo has nothing to do with pressing.
It’s just that Ronaldo is fecking shit. His name carries him, but he has been really that bad. And it’s not shocking, considering his ego and age.
At this point I wouldn’t even bet Ronaldo scoring 1 on 1.
The moment he finally goes away, the team will get huge relief. Hope it’s in the winter.
It’s just that Ronaldo is fecking shit. His name carries him, but he has been really that bad. And it’s not shocking, considering his ego and age.
At this point I wouldn’t even bet Ronaldo scoring 1 on 1.
The moment he finally goes away, the team will get huge relief. Hope it’s in the winter.
1) It wasn't.
2) It doesn't suit the kind of game we would face against City.
That's, like, basic stuff really.
Bring on posts from this thread who actively asked for him to get sacked and not just criticized him to prove your nonsensical claim.
Our mental readiness and mindset were not there yet. The training and winning the rest of games as many as possible will take us there.
there is nothing wrong for our approach yesterday. It just exposed us that we need continue to develop as a team. A learning experience, valuable. The team will learn from it and grow. That’s it. Otherwise, we will forever stay in the origin and take a reactive approach every game.
there is nothing wrong for our approach yesterday. It just exposed us that we need continue to develop as a team. A learning experience, valuable. The team will learn from it and grow. That’s it. Otherwise, we will forever stay in the origin and take a reactive approach every game.
Thats never been a good partnership. Why do you think it will be now? The first sign of madness is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results. We need to scout 2 CM who are better than these and dont cost a fortune. Thats what we need. Brentford, Brighton etc manage it. We should be able to as well.
I mean some Einstein gave Phil Jones a 5 year contract a few years ago when he had been injured all season. In fact how many games has he played since he was part of that 1st choice CB partnership with ol' Mike Smalling? Absolutely mental decisions which is why we are where we are.
If we're talking about "basic stuff", trusting a professional manager over some random internet poster to understand the nuances of evolving a football style and culture is as basic as it gets.
With respect to your other points:
1) that is your opinion, it is subjective but our midfield was a damn sight better than it has been for a long time, with Eriksen being touted by many as our best player this season
2) hindsight is 20/20 but there is no guarantee we would have been better with Casemiro's inclusion. We don't see him in training every day but Ten Hag does.
I'm not really in disagreement with you and there was a time when I felt the same way about how we should go about navigating certain games. But that was in 2014, and the defeat to Leicester City in Van Gaal's first season at the club, when we lost 5-3 after leading 3-1, made him go defensive. And I think that was a mistake, because we did alot of good in that game but the bad overshadowed the good over 90 minutes. And for me personally Van Gaal should've tried minimising the bad and encouraging the good stuff on the training ground but he instead decided to take the cautious route. And that for me contributed towards his downfall and created a environment where we were playing a brand of football that was low intensity from a bygone era.
Solskjaer went on record and said he wanted to replicate the high pressing football of Jurgen Klopp, but ended up taking the cautious route which got us a couple of top 4 finishes, but we didn't evolve as a team, get close to replicating the high pressing football of Jurgen Klopp or even compete for the league title in his 2/3 years at the club. And one game that epitomises my thoughts, is the game against Spurs in 2020, when we set out to impose ourselves on Spurs and they countered us and ended up scoring 6 goals. And Solskjaer in his post match interview, made it clear that wouldn't be happening again, and we again reverted to playing a cautious brand of football with the emphasis on defensive stability as a priority. That would change after the arrivals of Sancho, Varane and Ronaldo, where Solskjaer would again attempt to attempt to play a more expansive game but the wheels completely fell off and he lost his job. Three years of trying to 'play like Jurgen' and we didn't get close.
Under Mourinho we finished second one season but I do remember saying on the forum at the time about Liverpool looking the more dangerous team in the long-run due to their proactive approach towards the game. Whilst our reactive approach wasn't sustainable when up against the more proactive and adventurous minds in the league.
Jurgen Klopp at Liverpool stayed consistent with his ideals in his early days at Liverpool where his team suffered a number of heavy defeats whilst he was in trial and error mode. And he was going game by game and working towards creating a team that was going to fit with his ideals and vision in the mid to long-term. So when they lost 5-0 away to Man City, it didn't deter him from trying to improve upon the mistakes and trying the same again in the next game. That's how you evolve as a football team, and Arteta at Arsenal is another example of a young upcoming coach who after 3 years has implemented a dominant play style after many ups and downs.
I don't have a issue with anyone thinking we should've maybe played a extra DM and had Bruno on the bench against City. But my own opinion right now is to see us attempting to play a more proactive brand of football within reason, and taking each opponent relative to their strengths. I think we will learn much more if we carry on with such a approach against a Man City, who I was half expecting to beat us before the game started. And when you approach games on the front foot, the weaker players in the setup will stick out like a sore thumb, and that will hopefully enable ten Hag to quickly move players on.
It's about executing the plan and not running away and reverting to type because we lost one or two games imo. We have to look at the bigger picture and stay firm in our beliefs and evolve as a football club.
No, I meant Casemiro and ONE of McTominey or Fred. My mistake for not being clear.
I’d be very surprised if ETH doesn’t adapt and learn from this. The team, indeed the club, was on the floor when he came in. It doesn’t matter how good a manager he is, it was always going to take time. Some of you seem to have forgotten just how bad things had become.
1) who cares if our midfield is better than our own midfield last year or the year before? We have to go against our opponents and while the midfield has been a tad more functional lately thanks to Eriksen it certainly hasn't set the world alight and hasn't gained us any notable control except for the Leicester game.
2) There is no guarantee, you are right. But there is also not a guarantee it could have gone better, right? All we know is that the chosen plan failed badly. Is it really so outlandish to suggest, a more defensive approach, just like we did against Liverpool mere weeks ago, could have worked better against this City side? Keep in mind, better means not conceding 6...
Even if not a direct reply, thanks for taking the time pointing that out. Seems like a very plausible and reasonable train of thoughts and I share your concerns from strafing away from the actual course. For me, the only hindrances of taking over that stance would be a) we already switched away from ETHs initial plan after the defeat to Brentford and b) while totally agreeing to your point that switching generally to a more cautious approach isn't something, I want to see, I don't think adjusting a plan for one game would qualify for a general change in approach.
I'm not buying this idea that our initial plan or approach was too gung-ho or too attacking yesterday.
It was the same line up as Liverpool/Arsenal where we were camped in our own half defending for most of the game. I have no doubt that was our expectation for how most of the game would go and we'd rely on transitions and counters as usual. Eriksen starting in CM worked for the last 4 games so that was the reason it was unchanged, even if on paper it seems unwise. In hindsight we needed to bite the bullet and change our midfield set up pre-emptively, but the idea that because Eriksen started in deep CM that the plan must have been to play City off the park with expansive football is just dumb. We just learnt a valuable lesson about his weaknesses and you're not always going to get away with it, we got away with it against Arsenal and Liverpool and so we stuck with it.
The issue is, City breached our deep block within 5 minutes. And then went 2-0 from a corner. When you concede the first goal, the initial plan of sitting back has to go out the window at some point, when you're 2 down you feel have to start playing football to try get back in the game. From there that's where City start to have success in transitions. In hindsight we should have tried to get to half time without conceding any more rather than trying to get higher up the field at 2-0 and regrouped at the break, but I still maintain the initial plan would have been to defend deep in numbers and be effective in transition. We just defended shit even in a low block in the early stages, not getting tight enough, not tracking runners, not making fouls at the right time.
The lack of success on the counter attack was because Eriksen, Mctominay, Sancho, Bruno and Rashford couldn't pass or control a ball to save their fecking life. How are you going to counter when you give the ball away every time the opportunity is there to counter? Antony was the only player who looked like he might be able to hold onto possession. A very bizarre analysis to assume because we didn't rinse them on the counter attack then it wasn't the plan, we just didn't execute what we wanted to do.
It was the same line up as Liverpool/Arsenal where we were camped in our own half defending for most of the game. I have no doubt that was our expectation for how most of the game would go and we'd rely on transitions and counters as usual. Eriksen starting in CM worked for the last 4 games so that was the reason it was unchanged, even if on paper it seems unwise. In hindsight we needed to bite the bullet and change our midfield set up pre-emptively, but the idea that because Eriksen started in deep CM that the plan must have been to play City off the park with expansive football is just dumb. We just learnt a valuable lesson about his weaknesses and you're not always going to get away with it, we got away with it against Arsenal and Liverpool and so we stuck with it.
The issue is, City breached our deep block within 5 minutes. And then went 2-0 from a corner. When you concede the first goal, the initial plan of sitting back has to go out the window at some point, when you're 2 down you feel have to start playing football to try get back in the game. From there that's where City start to have success in transitions. In hindsight we should have tried to get to half time without conceding any more rather than trying to get higher up the field at 2-0 and regrouped at the break, but I still maintain the initial plan would have been to defend deep in numbers and be effective in transition. We just defended shit even in a low block in the early stages, not getting tight enough, not tracking runners, not making fouls at the right time.
The lack of success on the counter attack was because Eriksen, Mctominay, Sancho, Bruno and Rashford couldn't pass or control a ball to save their fecking life. How are you going to counter when you give the ball away every time the opportunity is there to counter? Antony was the only player who looked like he might be able to hold onto possession. A very bizarre analysis to assume because we didn't rinse them on the counter attack then it wasn't the plan, we just didn't execute what we wanted to do.
Yeah not getting to half time at 1-0 was amateur
If we can get a forward who can hold the ball well and can head and pass to our team mates and not get injured a lot we would do a lot better. Add the same to the midfield and it would be much better too.
Yeah spine still so weak because De Gea is old fashioned GK, not enough quality passers in CM and like you say no one capable of leading the line up front either.
Needs to demand appointment of an experienced DOF not be fobbed off with internal promotion merchants like Murtough,otherwise recruitment will continue to fall off a cliff for years to come.
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If that's true, no manager would have ever failed and none of them should ever be criticized because they are all qualified more than internet posters. Moyes knew a lot about football than this entire forum so I guess we should have trusted him?
1)Better sight than the trash of last season doesn't mean they were "playing well". None of our games this season showed a dominant performance from our side.
2)No guarantee but logic says you don't go against City with 2 lightweights in Eriksen and Bruno in midfield. That's asking for trouble. Choose the most suitable players to face your opponent then what happens, happens.
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