What does that have to do with the point I’m making?
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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What does that have to do with the point I’m making?
Where are these mythical posters claiming the same players got all four of those managers sacked?
We have been hearing many times about these players sacking multiple managers, and the poster to whom geebs replied specifically said that these players sacked four managers.
Every remaining player except Shaw, Dalot, McTominay and Rashford have played only under Ole and EtH, so at most, these 'snakes' have downed tools to sack one manager, Ole.
They were basically gone before he even started.
Nonsense. As well as the four you mention Martial, Fred, DDG and Lindelof also played under Mourinho. That’s EIGHT players in total. So when people talk about players letting multiple managers down they’re talking about a significant number who have played under three different managers.
Nobody is claiming we have a squad with the same bunch of players in it since Moyes. That was 12 fecking years ago! But Mourinho took over seven years ago and a significant bunch of the players that ended up getting him sacked are still at the club. That’s the point being made here. Seven years is a long time.
The secondary point is that, from ETH’s perspective, there’s a bunch of other established first team players - in addition to that lot - he inherited and had to move on. The likes of Ronaldo, Pogba, Lingard, Telles, Bailly, Jones. All of which made his job that bit more difficult than it should have been, if the squad hadn’t been so horribly managed over the last several years.
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They weren’t gone though. Which is my point.
Pogba and Lingard were out of contract and didn't even train under him.
Again, irrelevant. Re-read my post.
I did. They weren't inherited problems they were already gone.
You’ve gone from didn’t play under him to out of contract to already gone. Make your mind up….
Every player I mentioned needed to be replaced by ETH after taking over. That’s the point you seem to be repeatedly ignoring/avoiding.
And that’s in addition to the other seven or eight players, who had got previous managers sacked, but still played dozens of games under him. Making it more and more apparent that they probably all needed to be replaced as well.
Yes I was wrong, he had less to do with it than I first thought.
Moving on/replacing Telles, Bailly and Jones are hardly big inherited problems.
While VdB was supposed to be a good thing under him...
Telles, Bailly, Jones, Lingard, Ronaldo and Pogba. Why pretend they weren’t all in our squad when he took over?
ETH didn’t sign VdB. You’re pretending again. I’m sure there are plenty of other Ajax players he wouldn’t fancy for a PL team. VdB wasn’t even part of his first XI at Ajax ffs. He was a utility player who usually came on off the bench in big CL games. A Dutch Lingard.
I give up. Some of you are beyond help. You’re so hell bent on taking out all of your frustration on the manager you’ll happily warp reality to try and pretend there aren’t any mitigating factors in what went down. Because you really need life to be that simple. And you can’t handle the possibility that maybe, just maybe, ETH did a bad job as manager and he inherited a horrible squad of players, many of whom had caused similar headaches to previous managers. Whatever. Keep your heads in the sand if that’s what you need to do to feel vindicated.
Instead of trying to buy so many Dutch players, it should be Spanish ones
Raising my hand as a resident "feck em all off" supporter.
It's so clear both are issues
This is pretty much proven false at this point and based in media speculation.
Ashworth has stated on record that a manager would always have the right to say no to a player under his setup because "if a manager doesn't want a player then he won't play him".
To be fair Pogba and Lingard had already left by the time Erik arrived.
Phil Jones was a bit of a non factor as well.
Did the players get Murinho sacked though?
Usually it's mostly Jose's fault when he gets sacked.
Both are true, but you still had people claiming last season he was having to deal with a toxic squad that had got multiple manager sacked. Which is a stretch to say the least when you look at the players he had at his disposal last season who actually played under some of the previous managers.
Ok that makes sense.
That can be a good thing if you're a manger joining a new team. He got a permission to build his squad, he got the money. I'd imagine there are managers who would've preferred to come to the club under such circumstances, less pressure for instant success and more freedom to build something from scratch.
I agree with the point you're making here, it's just this "he had to deal with XYZ when he joined" resonates less and less with me with each passing month and a million quid spent. This actually makes the first season much more impressive, but the second season shitshow is on him.
The problem is for me, are we really in better position then we've been when ETH joined? Apart from Mainoo and Garnacho happening to Ten Hag, I think we've gone backwards.
EDIT: My opinion on ETH has changed a lot since he came here. At first I thought he's a great man-manager on how he handled stuff with the players (referring to Pogue main point here), and OK coach. Now I don't know anymore if he's a good man-manager based on how many players seems to have fallen out with him (can be other reasons than ETH himself doing a bad job, with with multiple different cases it doesn't lean in his favour as well). And he's definitely a poor coach.
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Also it’s quite a reach to say he had to replace them all when half of them barely played any football for us for a couple of season prior to ETH arriving. It’s really only Pogba, Ronaldo and DDG who had a meaningful role, and he was allowed to replace them both with very expensive signings of his choice (letting Ronaldo and DDG go being his decisions too).
I would not pretend that losing Bailly, Telles, Jones and Lingard was some major inconvenience.
And VDB we didn’t even lose, he’s still with us, just not good.Not many people drove this as one of the primary narratives.
It was more that the squad players were reverse profiles to the first choices, and so some wholesale changes were needed in light of injury.
I am very excited for next season. Sure things look dodgy right now, but there is so much to look forward to.
There is a new structure in place, new coaching staff, the never dying spirit of our manager and the cheekiness he brings with it.
I am hoping new players are first team players who put our lazy bunch out of business.
I am hoping Rashford learns from his England debacle and puts in efforts. I also hope Antony receives good RB who will make our right wing a proper terrorist base.
There is a new structure in place, new coaching staff, the never dying spirit of our manager and the cheekiness he brings with it.
I am hoping new players are first team players who put our lazy bunch out of business.
I am hoping Rashford learns from his England debacle and puts in efforts. I also hope Antony receives good RB who will make our right wing a proper terrorist base.
Yeah depends how you look at it really.Also it’s quite a reach to say he had to replace them all when half of them barely played any football for us for a couple of season prior to ETH arriving. It’s really only Pogba, Ronaldo and DDG who had a meaningful role, and he was allowed to replace them both with very expensive signings of his choice (letting Ronaldo and DDG go being his decisions too).
I would not pretend that losing Bailly, Telles, Jones and Lingard was some major inconvenience.
"Bailly, Telles, Jones and Lingard are leaving, it's bad because now I need to replace them"
vs
"Bailly, Telles, Jones and Lingard are leaving, it's good because they were not good enough anyway and I can replace them with proper players".
Maybe Ten Hag is just really poor with transfers and he needs someone else to cover that part, what hopefully will happen now under INEOS. I don't think this is the only big problem, but it's certainly one that CAN be solved with the club operating in a different way. He doesn't strike me as someone who will just take players picked by someone else and build a team with those (I was hoping we could get De Zerbi for that role), but I might be totally wrong and I guess we'll see soon enough.
In the summer of 2022 we've lost Pogba, who was a regular for us, and Ronaldo, who made all the fuss about it. The rest of the players are just numbers, not any significant names. In 2023 we got rid of De Gea (100% correct decision), that was a big move, and Fred, what IMO was a mistake but apparently not rated by Ten Hag / not in his plans. Fair enough, it's Eric's team now, he can do whatever he wants, but will be judged on how this works in the end.
Compared to the money spent in the last 2 years, I don't think the "forced departures" were such an inconvenience in all honesty.
Mourinho does not let any players get him sacked, he can perfectly do it on his own!
Pogba and Lingard were not actually in our squad when he took over.
Ashworth comment doesn't necessarily contradict what I said. It's one thing to state how you want to work, it's another thing what's actually put in contracts. And going by statements EtH made when he moved to United about how much control he wanted I am quite sure that there is something like that. But I admit that I don't have exact information about his contract, it's all reasonable guessing.
But did the players get Mourinho sacked or were they United players at the time Mourinho was sacked? The narrative is that it's the same group of players who down tools on purpose to get managers sacked. There's just no evidence of this.
mou gets sacked everywhere he goes.
I don’t buy players throwing him under the bus argument.
If you meet an asshole, you met an asshole
It all you meet are assholes, you’re the asshole.
How can you put transfer powers/demands in contract? If a player is signed that Ten Hag didn't want, or player isn't signed who was liked by Ten Hag, what happens?
You can't sign a player the manager doesn't want when the contract has to be signed by the manager.
Such clauses could exist to enforce the control EtH talked about when he joined United.
The other way round obviously you can't do that much about, when you fail to sign a player you want than that's just how it is.
That is the tricky part here, how can ETH "enforce" those things. In the end it will be down to the club to sign whoever they want to sign, right? I find it hard to believe ETH signature needs to be on the contract.
I think there might have been some sort of agreement between Eric and the club, but surely that one is out of the window considering how our squad looks now after 2 years of Eric's spending. That, or there never was such an agreement - and never will be considering ETH position at the club is very weak.
Not many in the context of how many post in this thread mate no. But still more than a few have made claims along those lines. I've had multiple conversations with people claiming as much. And that's just the ones who replied, most don't.
Your second point has merit but it's not what some are claiming.
Really? It popped up often enough in the whole “back or fire” debate. Some people were literally saying “we shouldn’t do what we always do and fire the coach. It’s the players being toxic. Fire them all and start again”
despite evidence that most players were busting their balls for ETH. Despite evidence that actually it’s actually only a small number that have played under 2+ coaches
I think that's a general point about not sacking coaches when the going gets tough, particularly when leaks came about players complaining about training methods.
But fair enough I see what you're referring to.
Don't think manager has any part to play in signing contracts. He isn't CEO or money guy.
I'm not so sure about that. All we know is that he demanded a lot of control over transfers, but we don't know how that was put into his contract.
Yeah he demanded that he should have a say or control of transfers. Things like that will be based on mutual understanding rather than on piece of paper. It's nearly impossible to enforce that.
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