Yep every other player in the squad struggle.
I guess Rashford, Maguire, AWB, Lindelof, Bruno, Martial, Shaw, Sancho all were playing exhilarating football under Ole and Rangnick.. Oh wait.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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Yep every other player in the squad struggle.
I guess Rashford, Maguire, AWB, Lindelof, Bruno, Martial, Shaw, Sancho all were playing exhilarating football under Ole and Rangnick.. Oh wait.
It seems a lot of the players mindset is not really aligned with where the club is currently.
I'm sure at Real Madrid where they are winning leagues and CL's every other year the players are given a bit more licence.
But when United are struggling to beat Brentford and Burnley you can't expect the coaches to give you the weekend off or let the players decide how much effort they want to put in that day.
United need players willing to run through a brick wall and fight for every minutes if they are to get back to the top.
I'm sure at Real Madrid where they are winning leagues and CL's every other year the players are given a bit more licence.
But when United are struggling to beat Brentford and Burnley you can't expect the coaches to give you the weekend off or let the players decide how much effort they want to put in that day.
United need players willing to run through a brick wall and fight for every minutes if they are to get back to the top.
You've got issues mate:
https://x.com/UtdDistrict/status/1801539017860673927?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1801539017860673927|twgr^abe19eb82141893b54db71ac6e1b24b147fb2cfe|twcon^s1_&ref_url=https://www.redcafe.net/threads/erik-ten-hag-manchester-united-manager.470032/page-2957
Ten Hag continued to instruct for a higher starting line so that his team could squeeze the play in the final third. It was the blueprint mapped out by the #mufc hierarchy. But the team would drop deeper than Ten Hag intended, leaving large spaces in midfield.
https://x.com/UtdDistrict/status/1801539017860673927/photo/1
To be fair you said top 3 mate not me. I don't think we could challenge next year.
Though I'm still interested as to what coming 3rd next season would prove?
Ie. if someone thought Ten Hag wasn't the man to take us to the next level and challenge for and win league titles over the next 2-3 years. How would finishing 3rd next season prove them wrong?
Maguire, Varane, Lindelof and Evans are 4 of the 5 central defenders we went into the season with. If the plan was to play a high defensive line then why didn't we?
Martinez isn't the quickest and was obviously never going to play every game. The likes of Varane and Maguire are capable of playing a higher line. You'd have to wonder why we didn't do it in the games they played together.
What's that got to do with the price of eggs in China?
It's clear that the tactics made it significantly more difficult for the players in the midfield and the defence than a more compact style would have. Surely you aren't actually denying that? Why do you think we had the second highest shots against us in the top five European leagues and got ripped apart time after time by every opposition team? Then because of our lack of control, possession and build-up, our attackers then effectively had to live on scraps.
The fact that some players also had some terrible seasons under previous managers has nothing to do with it. But since you seem to disagree, please answer the original question about which players did the tactics actually suit.
I just find it too hard to believe. Practically a full season of ignoring him and nothing changes? The defenders, bar Varane, seem to get on well with him. I'm just not seeing how this issue isn't solved quickly if it's true. The fact it wasn't solved, is still a poor look for him. We had so many different combinations, including first choice, and the issue was still apparent. Is every single defender ignoring him, but by chance all the midfielders and attackers are doing as told? I'm sorry but it just sounds ridiculous.
Even if I pay devil's advocate a bit here, let's say our defenders are forced back. It's still on the manager to work out why. Our tactics don't exist in a vacuum. Opposite coaches clearly know how to force us into situations we don't want to be. So what's he done about it? Football is like a game of chess these days, evolving over 90 minutes. Ten Hag is a fool and incredibly arrogant if he thinks he can just post his tactics, no adjustments needed, and the rest of the league will fail to overcome it. And one game that springs to mind where we played a high line in situations, we got our worst beating of the season off Palace. Their manager really had his way with us.
My point is, I don't believe it for a start. But if by some chance there's an element of truth, then it still looks bad on him. All season he's looked a ridiculously rigid coach.
I didnt say it has not impact. His tactics do have an impact but lets not act as if the players thrive under a different manager at our club.
You can blame it purely on tactics we had those many shots, I see it slightly differently.
I would put alot of it down to tactics, but players too, their ability to execute tactics.
Lets not act as if on numerous occasions, Casemiro presses higher up the pitch, slides in as a CDM, without any hope of getting the ball, gets done and then cant run back so we are exposed.
It is the managers fault that he is asking them to stay high, the players get scared and drop deep whilst the rest of the team is higher. They clearly struggle to execute the plans and tactics.
Last season we had one of the best defensive records, this season the worst. Obviously people like you will think injuries have no impact.
If you look at the PL generally, when teams have settled teams and back 5 they concede less.
Funny how you lot suddenly trust these journalists
You actually think Ten Hag did his team talk telling the players to stay high, half time team talk stay high, post match stay high, train all week stay high. You think that's what happened week after week? You seriously think they just ignored him every week?
It's mind-blowingly dumb how anyone could believe a manager unable to even get his players to try his tactics and then still support keeping him. Even fecking Moyes was able to get his players to play his way.
These journalists? It's the Athletic united correspondent not just any Joe from the Star. They've always had credibility here.Funny how you lot suddenly trust these journalists
You actually think Ten Hag did his team talk telling the players to stay high, half time team talk stay high, post match stay high, train all week stay high. You think that's what happened week after week? You seriously think they just ignored him every week?
It's mind-blowingly dumb how anyone could believe a manager unable to even get his players to try his tactics and then still support keeping him. Even fecking Moyes was able to get his players to play his way.
To be clear I've been saying this throughout the season, and now it's been reported that what me and a few others thought, including respectable posters like @Adnan was correct.
And no, they weren't ignored as such. They just retreated to positions during the game they were more comfortable with. It is habitual and not exactly to strike against the manager. I think Ten hag should have adapted to their habits knowing they're not able to execute plan A. But he didn't.
But yeah hold on to your opinion and ignore everything else. Top red you are, supposedly
I'm just glad most the match going fans don't share your sentiment.
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That Whitwell article is pretty damning even if it was just Ten Hag putting forward his point of view to Whitwell. Part of the problem is the flip flopping between coaching styles - Moyes -> Van Gaal -> Jose / Ole -> Ralf / Ten Hag. You just can't build a coherent squad like this and it's problematic to teach an old dog new tricks (as was the case with Varane, Casemiro and Ronaldo).
Ronaldo in particular seems to have just straight up ignored Ten Hag's instructions. I can only imagine what it was like for a guy like McKenna / Ole to tell him to angle his run when pressing.
There also seems to be a leadership void in there that INEOS correctly identified. First the execs and the DOF need to be involved with the first team so players understand there are consequences to disrespecting the coach's orders. Sure you can go party in Vegas even though there was a game the following day but there need to be consequences to that.
Second it's fine to have Van Der Gaag to run training, video analysis etc. but two tactical nerds attempting to connect with players doesn't seem to be working. He needs some people management help, so maybe get rid of McLaren or Fletcher and get some younger #2s who can advise Ten Hag in these matters. e.g., how do you deal with the issue around publishing a schedule when some players use rest days from that info to just go party abroad and loose fitness? Clearly just locking down hard keeping the schedule basically secret is the right way to go about it.
The defensive line height seems to have many different root causes - injuries, personnel issues and yes some bad coaching from Ten Hag.
INEOS and Ten Hag in, let's fecking go.
Ronaldo in particular seems to have just straight up ignored Ten Hag's instructions. I can only imagine what it was like for a guy like McKenna / Ole to tell him to angle his run when pressing.
There also seems to be a leadership void in there that INEOS correctly identified. First the execs and the DOF need to be involved with the first team so players understand there are consequences to disrespecting the coach's orders. Sure you can go party in Vegas even though there was a game the following day but there need to be consequences to that.
Second it's fine to have Van Der Gaag to run training, video analysis etc. but two tactical nerds attempting to connect with players doesn't seem to be working. He needs some people management help, so maybe get rid of McLaren or Fletcher and get some younger #2s who can advise Ten Hag in these matters. e.g., how do you deal with the issue around publishing a schedule when some players use rest days from that info to just go party abroad and loose fitness? Clearly just locking down hard keeping the schedule basically secret is the right way to go about it.
The defensive line height seems to have many different root causes - injuries, personnel issues and yes some bad coaching from Ten Hag.
INEOS and Ten Hag in, let's fecking go.
That's completely normal turnover for managers at top clubs. Let's have a look at some others (all CL winners of the last decade):
Manchester City had 2 in those 11 years (Pellegrini and Pep)
Liverpool had 2, just signed the 3rd (Rodgers, Klopp, Slot)
Barcelona had 6, just signed the 7th (Martino, Enrique, Valverde, Setien, Koeman, Xavi, Flick)
Real Madrid had 7(Ancelotti, Benitez, Zidane, Lopetegui, Solari, Zidane again, Ancelotti again).
Bayern München had 7, signed the 8th (Pep, Ancelotti, Heynckes, Kovac, Flick, Nagelsmann, Tuchel, Kompany)
Chelsea had 9, signed the 10th (Mourinho, Hiddink, Conte, Sarri, Lampard, Tuchel, Potter, Lampard, Poch again, Maresca)
So the amount of manager changes can't be the issue. Some clubs had a high turnover, some didn't, they all won the CL. The issue never was that United sacked a manager, the issue was that United always backed the manager (which you also demand). United never build a squad for the club, but always for the manager. And then they looked for a new manager for the club, not for a new manager for the squad they had. Every change of a manager turned half the squad into "deadwood" over night and created the need to replace a lot of the players, which was never completely possible and resulted in a weird squad.
United needs to stop backing managers. Back the club. Build a cohesive squad of players that fit each other and sign a manager that fits this squad. Whoever doesn't fit or doesn't deliver the expected performances should be replaced. No matter if it is the manager, a CB, someone in the medical staff or the tea lady. Yes, the manager is one of the most crucial people in such a setup. But if he isn't replacable without interrupting everything, the club setup is wrong. This has been the case for to long and people hope for INEOS to change that for the better.
And whenever someone sees that EtH doesn't pull his weight or doesn't give the right input to the team it's absolutely fair to call for him to be sacked, for the better of the club.
There's that bad faith argument again.
Thinking that the injuries don't excuse just how bad things were is not the same as thinking injuries should have no impact at all. It also ignores the fact that we saw all the same issues even when we had few or even no injuries. One thing I've been seeing over the last few pages in this thread is this idea of the likes of Maguire and Evans being unable to push up so that's why they would drop deep and cause that huge gap, but we saw the same happen when Varane and Martinez were there as well.
Once again I ask you to answer the original question since you seem to disagree. How many players in the squad did the tactics suit?
I don't see how these stories about players ignoring his tactical instructions and dropping deep despite being told to stay high are in any way a positive for his future outlook though to be honest.
There are two reasons why this could be happening: either they have zero respect for him and decide to play their own way despite instructions, which doesn't bode well for the future and also doesn't reflect great on the past as he should have disciplined them for this. I don't think it is the case though, what with him being a very harsh disciplinarian he would have probably just condemned any player to reserves if that was to happen.
Second possible reason is that they are aware of their limitations and know that playing a high line is going to expose them, in which case it's also bad because he should have adjusted for that before they took the decision in their hands. Either way, it's bad for the coach.
There are two reasons why this could be happening: either they have zero respect for him and decide to play their own way despite instructions, which doesn't bode well for the future and also doesn't reflect great on the past as he should have disciplined them for this. I don't think it is the case though, what with him being a very harsh disciplinarian he would have probably just condemned any player to reserves if that was to happen.
Second possible reason is that they are aware of their limitations and know that playing a high line is going to expose them, in which case it's also bad because he should have adjusted for that before they took the decision in their hands. Either way, it's bad for the coach.
Does Erik have a sack watch yet?
It's maybe worth zooming in on that because the donut or the bagel was so evident. My read of the article was that there were several different root causes
(1) Injuries - Martinez being injured, number of different CB pairs. Without a consistent partnership it's understandable to want to take less risk because you're not quite sure what your partner is going to do.
(2) Tactical fit - No real pacy CBs who are comfortable being aggressive in the challenge to prevent counters.
(3) Older players set in their ways - Guys like Casemiro and Varane aren't going to change the way they play now. They were set in their ways all through their 20s and unless they're extremely intelligent it's hard to teach them these positional play concepts.
(4) Poor connection between manager / players. I think the hardest problem to solve is that Ten Hag doesn't seem to have a great rapport with the players. INEOS told him to get in a #2 who can build that but he's stuck to Van Der Gaag. Let's see.
Nail on head.
Very true there are many nuances outside the notion of sacking the manager being the problem.
Indeed. If this was all pushed out to take some heat off him, I'm not sure it was the best idea. Makes him sound like he had no control over the players whatsoever or a blatant excuse for the tactics he deployed for 90% of the season until he changed it.
I think of Chelsea as the perfect example. Roman wasn’t slow to sack an under performing manager but he had a very competent structure setup and proven to succeed.
Boehly comes in, spends more, sacks managers for fun and Chelsea are a mess. Uniteds structure is closer to Boehlys mess at Chelsea. Boehly has spent over double what United have spent since ETH has taken over and look at how that’s working out. Sacking managers isn’t fixing Chelsea.
Looks like throwing the players under the bus is what many United fans do and always stick by the manager. If the tactics don’t work out, obviously it’s the players’ fault and how could it possibly ever be a manager’s mistake? They’re infallible, right?
Very good summary
It's also possible they do respect him, but that for one reason or another he hasn't been effective at communicating clearly and getting his ideas across to them.
Which also wouldn't bode very well if that were the case.
Thanks. I think the whole ‘modern brand of football’ is just a buzzword that has been used to frequently to explain something that is far less complex than it’s being made out to be. I think first and foremost the goal should be to maximize results and win, which in the short term means utilizing skills of your players in the most efficient way, and in longer term means improving team & tactics.
Also, the whole modern brand of football is basically whatever wins in current era. I’d rather be inventive and try to come up with ways to win that do not merely mirror team A, B and C but are suited to this particular club and squad.
I agree though that finishing 4th whilst scrapping results here and there wouldn’t really mean much. I don’t think winning FA Cup means much long term either but it creates great memories and memories is all life is about.
Maguire is not capable of playing in a high line, at all. He's far too slow and too ponderous on the ball. We didnt play it not just because we had issues at CB but because we had issues at full back, which meant half the backline were incapable of executing the instructions.
The problem is the squad players were reverse profiles of the first choice, and that takes quite a few windows to fix.
How can Torres/salah look a world beater at Liverpool and both failed miserably at Chelsea ? Same with De Bruyne with city? Even Forlan at z United or in Spain.
How can Ranieri miss out on a league with a really strong Chelsea but win one with Leicester? How can the form of that same Leicester team and other league winning clubs for Jose, Mancini , Pelligrini, even Klopp, collapse the next season ?
Everything isn’t always “that manager/player simply isn’t good enough”. There are so many variables that can make success and miserable failure far more difficult to assess.
Sometimes luck or right time right place is a huge role in a managers career. Jose isn’t Chelsea manager if the ref doesn’t disallow a legit Scholes goal against Porto. Ferguson probably wins more leagues.
An even bigger one for me is if Woodward wasn’t a complete clown, trying to sell United as Disneyland to Klopp, maybe he becomes United manager instead. I’m convinced Klopp would of done better then what we got but he’d still of ultimately failed because he wouldn’t have the very efficient , nimble and structured transfer system that doesn’t just but everybody Klopp wants. I think he was better served at a more efficient Liverpool.
Of course a lot of hypothetical situations and none of this “excuses” what’s happened with ETH. It’s just to remind people that sport is not always as obvious as it looks after the fact. Quality players/managers don’t always have the careers they deserve and sometimes they do better then they should just being at the right place at the right time.
How many games have Varane and Martinez played together this season? The difference is I have seen Lisandro play at CB, he is aggressive at the half way line, so when the ball comes into the forward, he is there pushing whereas Maguire is late and allows the players to turn because he can't dive in.
Those are the differences when playing the high line, you need aggressive defenders, so we win the ball back and maintain the attack.
The reason we get countered so often is, when its played against Maguire, Evans, lindelof, they allow the forwards to receive pass and run off.
Well Ten Hag has different tactics, Shaw, Lisandro, Dalot, Mainoo, Bruno, Amad all work in the system he wants to play.
Also, the biggest issue is majority of the squad we have, doesnt suit a top team, which is why our tactics don't work.
Being slow doesn't mean you can't play in a high defensive line though.
People instantly think, slow is the reason. Maguire struggles because he is a low block penalty area defender. He doesnt like getting tight to players like Lisandro does, which means teams can get out easier.
It's not just slow. He's ponderous on the ball and fails to show conviction frequently enough. Maguire is strong, comfortable in the air and good at intercepting. But he's uncomfortable in a sea of space because unlike Licha he's not quick on a half turn, he's not nearly as good a passer and not streetwise in winning 50/50 decisions. He is more likely to be in compromised positions as a result.
Yeah, I wouldn't even count Dalot, as he made it work through his own improvements and all around ability in technique, athleticism, mentality etc. It's not like the system or tactics shielded or gave a strong platform for the RB position and inverted fullback areas anyways. That's why it's impressive to look at Dalot's form this season; he made it happen more than any other factor imo.
Ronaldo deserved to be sacked in the end due to his attitude but reading a few pieces on Ten Hag's management of him makes me think Erik completely fecked it. Top managers tend to play to the strengths of their best players, not force them to do things they don't do. Especially at 36 years old.
Who said Ronaldo was forced to do things?
Ronaldo was not United's best player. So if the manager wants to press and a player is unwilling to press, he benches him and the said player throws a fit, it is the managers fault?
It was also in an interview somewhere where he agreed with Ole that he couldn't play every week and the one game he got rested, threw a bitch fit then too
OK tactics that suited pretty much none of our players. Is that better?
it didn't suit some key positions - but I agree, that's enough to break the whole system down. It was his biggest mistake (not changing it up).
It generally doesn't help, especially when you need to defend wide spaces and turn like a battleship. It puts so much pressure on that defenders ability to anticipate and read the game inch perfect to compensate.
Just read the Whitewell article and my overarching thought was that he should have as little say as possible in transfers.
I think personality wise, he's had a lot of challenges and dealt with them quite well. I do have concerns about the tactical approach though. If things aren't working and players aren't following his instructions as expected, it's down to him to simplify/change the messaging or adapt your way of playing to the squad. It felt this way watching United and it reads this way in the article that he persisted with a failing tactic for too long before making adjustments.
I think the sorting out of recruitment should help ETH a lot (even if he doesn't like it). I've got concerns from a tactical perspective, more than anything and his ability to implement good football at the club.
I think personality wise, he's had a lot of challenges and dealt with them quite well. I do have concerns about the tactical approach though. If things aren't working and players aren't following his instructions as expected, it's down to him to simplify/change the messaging or adapt your way of playing to the squad. It felt this way watching United and it reads this way in the article that he persisted with a failing tactic for too long before making adjustments.
I think the sorting out of recruitment should help ETH a lot (even if he doesn't like it). I've got concerns from a tactical perspective, more than anything and his ability to implement good football at the club.
I deleted my post minutes after as it wasn't an accurate assessment.
Saivet said
I think the sorting out of recruitment should help ETH a lot (even if he doesn't like it). I've got concerns from a tactical perspective, more than anything and his ability to implement good football at the club.
I disagree. At Ajax Overmaas did the recruitment and ETH worked wit what he had. He built 2 separate Ajax teams who competed with the best in Europe.
I think with the new organisation behind him where he can concentrate on coaching with the right players we can get to the top again
I think the sorting out of recruitment should help ETH a lot (even if he doesn't like it). I've got concerns from a tactical perspective, more than anything and his ability to implement good football at the club.
I disagree. At Ajax Overmaas did the recruitment and ETH worked wit what he had. He built 2 separate Ajax teams who competed with the best in Europe.
I think with the new organisation behind him where he can concentrate on coaching with the right players we can get to the top again
What was Van der Sar's job at Ajax then? i thought he did the recruitment
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