Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[matt10000]

I've happy to give INEOS plenty of rope and plenty of time, but there are a lot of moving parts as we build this new structure so it's a little early to declare that they know so much of the situation when they've barely got their own people in to overlook things. They also had enough doubts over ETH to talk to other managers, even if they (logically) decided none of them offered enough for us to make a change.

I do expect us to do better next season, maybe much better. Because it'll be harder to repeat this season, because it will help if we suffer less injuries and because hopefully we'll now be able to make better signings and that ETH will be able to focus more on the coaching. However, that's kind of the big issue. His coaching has not been very impressive for a while now.

It is perfectly normal for any organisation that invests £1.3 billion into a business to review all existing management positions with an open mind and without bias and so it is no surprise that they have looked at various options in fact it is re-assuring. This does not mean they necessarily doubted ETH, it is just what you do when you invest huge sums of money into a business unless you are an idiot.

 

[Cassidy]

A tactic that leaves your midfield wide open and allows the opposition 20-30 shots at goal per game is a crazy tactic

But its not the tactic as the piece sets out, the players not following the instructions causes the gap

 

[NLunited]

A lot of things make more sense now with this info coming out (but there still are lots of questions).

I never believed we were intentionally playing with a wide gap in midfield, as it makes zero sense.

The article states that there was player dissent and that players were getting tired of tactical presentations. We also know the MU leadership wanted pressing and a high line. This points to players not executing the tactics, at least not consistently.

Someone brought up that if you are playing with a high line, you can’t line up with Evans and Maguire, who we were forced to play because of injuries. I agree with that, but we were forced to. We can’t be sure what the tactical instructions were for those situations, I’m sure it wasn’t what we ended up witnessing.

From watching the games in which they were exposed, I think the biggest issue was players not covering for each other. Evans and Maguire are weak 1v1 so you have to have cover.

Whatever the intent was for those games, it failed. It is too easy and wrong to blame the manager for everything though. He did not instruct them to give away the ball in dangerous areas either, which was our worst issue in the new year.

Ten Hag was hired and instructed to play a high line and press: it would be unhelpful to completely change the strategy mid-season. So, we saw persistence on Ten Hag’s part except in certain games (Cheaty).

In modern football, having players not willing to follow detailed tactical instructions is just unacceptable. We always hear talk about how detailed and fanatic Guardiola is, but some are calling for Ten Hag to simplify (dumb down) his tactics. Feck no.

It is mind-boggling that we have players on 350k weekly salaries who are complaining about tactical meetings (30-60 minutes) and lack of freedom. When we talk about standards at MU, these things are unacceptable.

 

[iato89]

Most on here that read my comments know that I not a fan of ETH last season and I still am an ETHOUT advocate considering what happened last season.

My reasons arent just obvious ones i.e. finished 8th, GD-1, 14 epl losses, last in Cl grouetc etc but my main reason was how he is stubborn and how he tactically set the team up. Injuries do effect but the excuse is used too often to excuse the midfield set up. We were being bypassed easily by every teams and conceding 20 plus shots per games due to that and not just because we had martinez and shaw injured. We were horrific for most part of the season and his stubborness killed us.

BUT now it is what it is. I believe he remained there by default especially since the Athletic wrote that financial agreement couldt be reached with Tuchel. It is also reported that ETH was willing to listen to Wilcos anx adjust his tactics (which was clear in our last 4 games) and also remove his recuitment veto as requested bu INEOS.I am still super sceptical that this will work but I believe that if ETH puts this season tactics in the bin and will be able to adjust and stop his stubborness and works/listens to Wilcox/Deans and align himself with the clubs new philosophy we might have chance to improve. Is if reports are saying he is willing to do these things, I am willing to see how it goes and give him a small chance but as many said this can turn ugly, very ugly if our first 10 games will be a disaster. Lets hope for the best.

 

[Robindinho]

But its not the tactic as the piece sets out, the players not following the instructions causes the gap

He couldn't tell them to push up?
Instead of standing there in silence, shaking his head and grinding his teeth.

Compare that with how Pep/Klopp etc are on the touchline - constant instruction, especially when the tactics aren't being followed.

 

[matt10000]

My only question is why other managers at United weren’t given the time ETH was granted? What did ETH do that warranted more patience?

Could be because they see progress behind the scenes that is not yet apparent on the pitch. SAF came 12th and 13th but there was enough progress (that was not apparent to the "Fergie Out' brigade), to convince the board that he was the best person to take the club forward.

Could be that repeating the same process (recruit, sack, recruit, sack, recruit sack) has not worked.

 

[NLunited]

Any chance ETH changes tactics a little bit next season? Let say we sign Branthwaite, could he then use Martinez as an inverted LB similar to Ake at city and then play Branthwaite LCB. We’d still probably need a RCB aswell though.

Some things could change: tactics aren’t set in stone. We will probably stick to the overall strategy though.

I’m not sure how Branthwaite would slot in either.

 

[Cassidy]

He couldn't tell them to push up?
Instead of standing there in silence, shaking his head and grinding his teeth.

Compare that with how Pep/Klopp etc are on the touchline - constant instruction, especially when the tactics aren't being followed.

You obviously did not read the article

 

[MiceOnMeth]

I'm not. I'm just saying people like you want to be right, so if he starts to do good you will never admit Ineos were right to keep him.

Nah I just want us to act like the big club that we are and be ruthless. Madrid and the other giants don't put up with mediocrity. We do the opposite and we reward it.

 

[romufc]

You obviously did not read the article

Tbh I blame Ten Hag too, why didn't he go onto the pitch and drag the players into the position he wanted..

Poor management that.

 

[NLunited]

He couldn't tell them to push up?
Instead of standing there in silence, shaking his head and grinding his teeth.

Compare that with how Pep/Klopp etc are on the touchline - constant instruction, especially when the tactics aren't being followed.

He is giving a lot of instruction on the touch line, the media does not show it. During games at least one half you can see the managers in the background.

There are some highlight videos out showing him giving instructions.

 

[romufc]

Nah I just want us to act like the big club that we are and be ruthless. Madrid and the other giants don't put up with mediocrity. We do the opposite and we reward it.

It is clear you dont understand the context of those big clubs right?

All the clubs you mention, sign players for the future, not for the manager.

For instance, they build a squad regardless of the manager and have class players all the time.

You gave Real Madrid as an example, they sack managers and go onto win the league the season after.

So you want us to act as big club, do you expect a new manager to come into this squad and win the league next season?

 

[RORY65]

But its not the tactic as the piece sets out, the players not following the instructions causes the gap

You're taking 1 article in the Athletic as more reliable than what we watched for the whole season. If it was literally the case of players ignoring instructions then what were they doing in training all week? Monday to Friday they were doing exactly what Ten Hag, pushing up high and being compact as a team, and then on Saturday the defenders decided to feck it off and drop back 20 yards? If that's really the case then it's amazing how it wasn't drilled into them for a whole season.

I could believe more that Ten Hag just decided that he'd rather half the team do what we wants for the better in the long run and just accepted the defenders were incapable, it made for a lot of dreadful performances but there may be benefits in the long run, rather than him actively instructing them to do one thing every week and them going out and not doing it with the same then repeated the week after.

 

[Chumpsbechumps]

What about the way we won FA Cup signals progress though? Genuine quesition. I don’t think our Liverpool and City wins were that different to how we’ve beaten big sides numerous times in the past.

The question for me is moreso , what progress would be acceptable this season had he gone all pragmatic and we did better consistently in the league but maybe still just about squeezed 4th or just missed out? I really don’t think we miss out financially an awful lot on CL when player wage drop is factored in along with that we don’t regularly get much further then QFs at a push.

The cup run “papered over the cracks”, this absolutely true. But a more pragmatic and probably boring league campaign that maybe could have gotten us 4th (given all the other issues) would equally of been “papering over the cracks”. Don’t think anybody thinks we’d of finished any higher, so would you be more content had we none of the FA cup excitement but a more pragmatic league campaign with less shots on goal but the counter attacking sh*t none of us really want to see ? I get this is all hypothetical , but I just see this season as an anomaly for different reasons.

I also think when INEOs came in ETH basically just comitted to the way he wanted to play (as our league results changed dramatically to look more like the CL ones). Look at the goals in league games before and after the Villa game at Christmas. I’d like to think (if not possibly naively) that with players coming back from injury and maybe with his conversations with INEOs he kind of took a “f**k it” approach to the team.

It was risky and unconventional (as most managers would go pragmatic) but I like a United manager not afraid to take huge risks and go for what they believe in. I always think of Klopps Liverpool, it wasn’t until he learned to be more pragmatic in big games, was he able to get the two top trophies. I felt this happened between their two CL finals losing to madeid and beating spurs when they were more defensive. I’d like to think ETH has learned alot last season and the dame with INEOs, there wasn’t really anywhere for anybody to hide.

Glass is half full for me. I feel like last season was probably the one we expected after Ragnick and money didn’t paper over the cracks to the point that the club is only now properly starting to address all the insidious and unquantifiable issues that have held us back for 11 years. I’d be optimistic that even if ETH doesn’t work out it won’t set us back a few years or require a complete squad reset like we have needed when most managers met.

It’s taking a longer term view. Doesn’t mean I’m right, but it’s why I’m not overly concerned with ETH. I do not and have not seen the manager role as the major issue at United under the glazers. I’m convinced if we get all other areas of the football side fixed, we can sack managers every year and the club/squad shouldn’t be that much impacted. That’s how I see us getting back to the top, not with journeyman coming in as plasters, eventually they will be fine appointments.

So perhaps, when it was all added up, the biggest strength in ETH favour was a manager who has shown the capacity to handle the job (under unbelievable scrutiny), fight their corner , manage big egos , bring on youngsters really well and cultivate a more respectable culture in the dresssingroom towards a manager. Whoever comes in after him should inherit a much more balanced, focused club/squad.

SJR has set 2028 as his target , presumably to get us back properly challenging, not double digits off 1st runners up. So I can see why he’d kind of write off next season as his plan is long term and will require pain through change and possible experimentation. ETH could be the man that takes us back to the top or maybe he will be the man who takes us to the point where the team/club is ready for another (maybe Mckenna if he does well) to take us an extra step, like Ranieri to Jose.

Long story short , I’ve always felt our problem was the running of the club. I’m more optimistic that there are changes that will help. All the appointments being made , at the very least, means we are trying to upgrade the club to be run like all the other top clubs we keep pointing at and wondering why when they sack managers it doesn’t seem to cause as much issues.

 

[pocco]

I'm guessing this is coming from United, and it looks to me like Ineos are sipping on the Ten Hag Kool Aid. You can't say the players didn't follow instructions all season, that's just utterly ridiculous and I don't believe it for a second. When he was asked about it he gave various answers throughout the season, ranging from shots conceeded not being a concern, to not having his ideal starting defence. Seems somebody is just telling others what they want to hear, or the club trying to get fans off his case.

 

[Adisa]

The obvious flaw when you fill your team with successful proven players. Tends to be the reason why these Dutch managers regimented football only works in the Eredivisie with junior players where they dominate the league with young[er] players who are at the highest level of their career presently.

Argurably the best coach in the world at the moment adopts a very regimented way of playing.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

The one irrefutable conclusion out of that article is that the old regime didn’t know what the feck they were doing, but we all knew that.

Reading about how they bought Mount because he is ‘versatile’ is just comical, it’s Mourinho and Fred all over again. Even the fanbase (well, at least half of it) knew that it didn’t address any of our issue and none of us make a living out of football.

 

[Amir]

It is perfectly normal for any organisation that invests £1.3 billion into a business to review all existing management positions with an open mind and without bias and so it is no surprise that they have looked at various options in fact it is re-assuring. This does not mean they necessarily doubted ETH, it is just what you do when you invest huge sums of money into a business unless you are an idiot.

I'm not buying that. Had they joined a year earlier, I don't think they would have gone and talked to other managers at the end of 2022/23.

 

[Adisa]

Players must be sold. This is the honest truth. If you hire a coach to implement a style, you have to back him without compromise.

 

[Chumpsbechumps]

I'm guessing

Agreed

 

[quadrant]

That Athletic article seems pretty balanced overall, and kind of reinforces my previous view. ETH had an absolute tonne of shit to deal with last season. He definitely made mistakes and handled some situations badly, but I don't believe any manager would have a 100% success rate on all the problems he faced. Different managers might have dealt with some of those situations better, while handling others worse, and there's an argument to be had about which matters most. However if you look at his overall rationale, Im mostly behind him.

He might have kept the team happier with a looser approach to discipline, but does that get us to an elite club culture? We might have been more secure defensively sitting back compactly and counter attacking, but is that viable long term? Maybe less focus on systems play and more independent action would suit some of our key players, but would that make the continuity of managers harder?

While I don't think his approach has always been right, I'm generally behind his vision for the club. Both how we play football and in terms of club culture, I still think there's a lot of synergy between his aims and the club's.

When we went with ETH I always felt we'd need to be more patient than with someone like Poch. We'd have to accept that he'd make mistakes and that the club would have to find ways to support him through them. Not just by saying its ok, but by putting structures in place to stop problems being repeated, such as strong recruitment teams.

My main concern at the end of last season was whether he still had enough credit in the bank with the players to be given another shot by them next season. Rightly or wrongly, once the players give up on you, your time's up. I think the FA Cup win and the celebrations showed that, while they may not totally believe in him yet, there's still a relationship there to build on.

 

[Cassidy]

You're taking 1 article in the Athletic as more reliable than what we watched for the whole season. If it was literally the case of players ignoring instructions then what were they doing in training all week? Monday to Friday they were doing exactly what Ten Hag, pushing up high and being compact as a team, and then on Saturday the defenders decided to feck it off and drop back 20 yards? If that's really the case then it's amazing how it wasn't drilled into them for a whole season.

I could believe more that Ten Hag just decided that he'd rather half the team do what we wants for the better in the long run and just accepted the defenders were incapable, it made for a lot of dreadful performances but there may be benefits in the long run, rather than him actively instructing them to do one thing every week and them going out and not doing it with the same then repeated the week after.

No because the manager has repeatedly said it

 

[Chumpsbechumps]

The one irrefutable conclusion out of that article is that the old regime didn’t know what the feck they were doing, but we all knew that.

Reading about how they bought Mount because he is ‘versatile’ is just comical, it’s Mourinho and Fred all over again. Even the fanbase (well, at least half of it) knew that it didn’t address any of our issue and none of us make a living out of football.

Mata was signed because he could be signed, was a high profile name and would look good for Woodward after the Fellaini debacle, not for any other reason. Woodward was in charge for a decade. A decade of squad mismanagement that all our manager had to endure and publicly defend because you can’t go around saying your employers are muppets and it won’t exactly help you get another job at another club.

Just annoys me when people presume signings are simply “manager wants Anthony , he gets Anthony”. There’s so much more to a signing , how you get there, how/why they are identified, why you overpay and how it didn’t work out then simply “manager”. With United the manager position has effectively been a human shield for glazers/woodward and general club dysfunction.

 

[diarm]

Reading that some senior players were unhappy with Erik's playing style but were basically told to shut up when they spoke up about it is quite concerning, its no wonder there was dissent in the dressing room if this was happening.

I'd be way more concerned at the idea of players dictating what tactics they want to play.

We brought this coach in to play a particular brand of football. For the first time since he's been here, let's give him the players, environment and backing he need to have us play it. Any players who aren't able for that style, or don't fancy getting on board with it, can be shown the door.

 

[RORY65]

No because the manager has repeatedly said it

I honestly haven't heard him repeatedly say it, you might be right, but I just don't believe that if he's telling them to do it every week and they're working on it in training that the defenders are actively doing the opposite in games with no consequences and nothing changing.

 

[acnumber9]

Mata was signed because he could be signed, was a high profile name and would look good for Woodward after the Fellaini debacle, not for any other reason. Woodward was in charge for a decade. A decade of squad mismanagement that all our manager had to endure and publicly defend because you can’t go around saying your employers are muppets and it won’t exactly help you get another job at another club.

Just annoys me when people presume signings are simply “manager wants Anthony , he gets Anthony”. There’s so much more to a signing , how you get there, how/why they are identified, why you overpay and how it didn’t work out then simply “manager”. With United the manager position has effectively been a human shield for glazers/woodward and general club dysfunction.

None of that applies to Ten Hag though because he had a veto on all transfers. We signed the players he wanted.

 

[DWelbz19]

Argurably the best coach in the world at the moment adopts a very regimented way of playing.

Pep? Absolutely. But even he has seasoned players who question the absolutism of his football. Tends to end up with them out on by their ears too.

The players absolutely need to buy into the tactics the manager wants to set up, but just as importantly is the need for those tactics to fit what you have. Someone like Casemiro should never have been signed if the intention was front footed high depth stuff. Lots of transitions for a seasoned old player to handle in there.

 

[RedRocket9908]

But its not the tactic as the piece sets out, the players not following the instructions causes the gap

If the players were failing to follow his instructions why didnt he take any action to resolve that instead of continuing with the same thing every game up until Wilcox ordered him to change to the 4-2-2-2?

Why were the senior players not listened too when they spoke up about being unhappy with the playing style?

The fact we continued to play a tactic and style that the players were unhappy with and couldnt play fo so long is 100% on the manager.

 

[NLunited]

The obvious flaw when you fill your team with successful proven players. Tends to be the reason why these Dutch managers regimented football only works in the Eredivisie with junior players where they dominate the league with young[er] players who are at the highest level of their career presently.

Daley Blind, Tadic, Schöne were hardly young players. It was a mix of experience and youth, a club tactical identity and good coaching on top.

 

[Cassidy]

I honestly haven't heard him repeatedly say it, you might be right, but I just don't believe that if he's telling them to do it every week and they're working on it in training that the defenders are actively doing the opposite in games with no consequences and nothing changing.

Hard to have consequences when you don't have many defenders to pick from, and he has said it repeatedly after games that players did not follow instructions

 

[Adisa]

That article reflects badly on the players and the people above ETH. Have sympathy for him.

Although ETH is not blameless. The people using that article to bash him don’t get the point. Most managers would fail under those circumstances.

 

[DWelbz19]

Daley Blind, Tadic, Schöne were hardly young players. It was a mix of experience and youth, a club tactical identity and good coaching on top.

Blind was born and bled in Ajax football. Schone grew up and played his entire career in Dutch football too. Tadic is fair, but again — all three of those players* — Ajax was the highest level they’d played at their careers at that point. That manager was the most proven manager they’d played under.

I also didn’t say this was an absolute rule. Just that it tends to go that way. It’s a lot easier to be so specific on details and have such a heavy focus on tactical instructions when players are younger, impressionable, and haven’t had experiences of real success elsewhere. I don’t think that’s a controversial comment.

Is it possible to be such a way elsewhere and succeed? Well, yeah, it’s just harder and you will find yourself coming into situations (at times) like the ones ten Hag found himself with the likes of Varane and Casemiro.

* Blind aside as he’d played for us, but again see caveat that he played at Ajax since he could kick a ball.

 

[NLunited]

If the players were failing to follow his instructions why didnt he take any action to resolve that instead of continuing with the same thing every game up until Wilcox ordered him to change to the 4-2-2-2?

Why were the senior players not listened too when they spoke up about being unhappy with the playing style?

The fact we continued to play a tactic and style that the players were unhappy with and couldnt play fo so long is 100% on the manager.

Technical directors don’t dictate tactics or line-ups. Wilcox is working on a playing strategy that will be the blueprint for the whole academy + first team. It sure as hell isn’t Ten Hag’s false nine narrow low block system.

 

[NLunited]

Blind was born and bled in Ajax football. Schone grew up and played his entire career in Dutch football too. Tadic is fair, but again — all three of those players* — Ajax was the highest level they’d played at their careers at that point. That manager was the most proven manager they’d played under.

I also didn’t say this was an absolute rule. Just that it tends to go that way. It’s a lot easier to be so specific on details and have such a heavy focus on tactical instructions when players are younger, impressionable, and haven’t had experiences of real success elsewhere. I don’t think that’s a controversial comment.

Is it possible to be such a way elsewhere and succeed? Well, yeah, it’s just harder and you will find yourself coming into situations (at times) like the ones ten Hag found himself with the likes of Varane and Casemiro.

* Blind aside as he’d played for us, but again see caveat that he played at Ajax since he could kick a ball.

OK, I do think that we have to
continue to go in that direction. And we are.
‘We can’t do it here’ is bollocks. We will do it.

 

[DWelbz19]

OK, I do think that we have to
continue to go in that direction. And we are.
‘We can’t do it here’ is bollocks. We will do it.

Agreed, but the players we sign must fit that system. No more hodgepodge of players who don’t really fit the way he wants to play being signed in the same window.

Speaking loosely — the CBs need recovery pace and agility to play a high line; we desperately need some midfielders who can play with the ball at their feet; and generally an increase in athleticism across the side.

If that responsibility is falling on one of the many ‘best in class’ guys and 100% has to be taken away from ten Hag, fingers crossed we do well there.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

Nah I just want us to act like the big club that we are and be ruthless. Madrid and the other giants don't put up with mediocrity. We do the opposite and we reward it.

Sir Alex himself said we need to give managers time. Since then we have had Moyes, Van Gaal, Mourinho, Ole, Rangnick and now Ten Hag. That is 6 managers in 11 years.

The management merry go round at this club is probably the main reason as to why the club is no closer to winning the league now than 10 years ago under Moyes.

The continuous replacement of managers clearly isn't working and you and many people think the best way to get back to winning the league is doing the exact same thing that hasn't worked for 11 years. No manager at the club has been further than 2.5 seasons.

Maybe let the club try a different approach for once and maybe things might change in 3 years time, giving a manager a bit more time than 2 - 2.5 years. If not then get a new manager. But for once the club are giving a manager more time and backing him with a proper football set up. Let them support the manager with a proper set up and see what happens instead of just constantly complaining. At the end of the day ETH is the manager now, just back the manager and the club while he is here. because yours and many others moaning isn't going to change the decision.

Remember the saying ' The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results'

 

[pocco]

Agreed

Well it's even worse if it's coming from Ten Hag, wouldn't be worth the paper it was written on. I was giving him the benefit of the doubt.

 

[MadDogg]

How many people in the first 11 did his tactics actually suit last season, I can't think of many

Arguably Dalot. That's it. Every other player in the squad had their job made significantly harder because of the tactics.

 

[HookedOnAPhelan]

Reading that Whitwell article has made me happier with the decision to stick with Ten Hag. Heads must roll in the dressing room if things are to truly change at this club.

 

[Smores]

It is true that we wanted to play a high line, that's what started this whole debate.

No he didn't.

I mean he did, we all watched it in about 40 odd games last season. If you think he did his pre-game tactical brief and training as a high line every week and then they went out and didn't do it then you're clueless I'm afraid. That didn't happen.

It's hilarious how often those who cry 'support the team' actually just want to shit on the players. Some supporters you lot are.