That comment is kind of daft. We were smeared with injuries and despite that were only 8 points from 4th. Year before we were 3rd.
Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager
- Thread starter sewey89
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If you can assume backing Ten Hag is blind hope, I can assume people who think that he is only going to fail is ignorance.
There was clear evidence last season he can make things better, we finished 3rd, got Carling cup, FA cup final, so dont act as if there was no signs of it.
There is clear evidence of style, we just dont like it, but there is a style of play.
Ten hag wanted to swap Dalot for Dumfries, wanted both Gakpo and Antony. This guy will relegate us.
If you think the fans are to blame , you need to recalibrate your anger at the fans who have believed if we just sacked our managers sooner we’d of eventually found one who would have worked out.
Do you know what big clubs in Europe do? The ones at or near financial level ? They don’t go 11 years without winning or even challanging properly for a league or CL. These clubs can hire big standard managers or good ones and they still remain there or thereabouts. They may hire their managers or replace them quickly but they are seldom in the kind of crisis United seem to always be in. If the person hiring managers or badly buying players is under performing, they are sacked or replaced. Madrid literally has presidential elections that force their heads to make the club successful.
They don’t need entire squad rebuilds , their squads usually look in decent condition for their new managers. They don’t continually over pay for players and either offload unwanted or under performing players or do what they can do it doesn’t limit newer managers.
They don’t continually make what look like panic buys and don’t over rely on their managers on their transfer targets.
The heads of the bigger clubs , to a man, do not publicly say something in the lines of “doing crap on field doesn’t affect us financially”. They also prioritise winning/success over profits or marketing or anything else.
So while replacing under performing managers faster/quicker is a place we should be looking to get to, the club has an awful lot more hurdles to fix before that will be a meaningful excercise for us.
I don’t think any of what’s gone on is any of our/fans fault. But I’m sick of reading the really stupid “our fans have now accepted mediocrity” posts. If that’s how some of you want to play it and simply think sacking managers faster would have improved things substantially, then I think you don’t understand where the real problems are or have been.
The two year contract extension is mind boggling.
We gave Mourinho a contract extension 8 months or so before sacking him and had to pay more compensation.
He”s lucky to have a bloody job and here we are rewarding him for our worst PL and CL finish in 30+ years!
Surely you leave contract talks until September/October to assess how the team is performing?
We gave Mourinho a contract extension 8 months or so before sacking him and had to pay more compensation.
He”s lucky to have a bloody job and here we are rewarding him for our worst PL and CL finish in 30+ years!
Surely you leave contract talks until September/October to assess how the team is performing?
We gave Jose a contract and sacked him.
We also gave Ole a contract and sacked him 5 months later.
I thought the easiest option for INEOS was to just trigger the extra year and see where it goes. However; it seems they want to change his role and give him less powers.
Also what this does is confirms this is an INEOS appointment.
I am a very good fan,thank you.You see,I want MU to go back to the position it occupied not so long ago.This was where mediocrity was not allowed. This was when visiting a place like Crystal Palace meant three points,at worst one point. It was when playing a team like Galatasaray at Old Trafford was an almost guaranteed three points.
Why don't you try to be a MU fan,not a Ten Hag fan. Managers come and go. Oh,and while you are at it, stop using words like 'feck' when making your arguments.This is supposed to be a forum for grownups. And as for your bulleted points,please think about how the fans of Bournemouth,Crystal Palace and the rest of the mid and bottom table teams felt after schooling us.
Exactly.
Part of the issue is people really can’t factor in that the last 2 seasons haven’t simply been a club doing everyday normal successful big club things.
What club has had:
- a manager taking over a club in crisis that needed “open heart surgery”
- people overpaying for players and continually panic buying and failing to offload unwanted or under performing players
- what manager took over a club and the future was in doubt barely 6 months into their tenure ? Even after 1st season people felt ETH position was under threat because “new owners usually want their man”. This can affect teams as players (seems to happen to United ones a lot) can lose focus if they think the manager is probably a gonner
- what other team/manager has had the kind of drama ETH in his fists 14 months , ronaldo , Sancho , greenwood , Rashford
- injuries , this is on top of all this
- one striker mostly fit, unproven in league
- needs 3 under 22 , unproven players, in starting team for an entire sessondue to injuries and no alternative options
- crippling defencive issues the season they are trying to bed in a new GK
I mean, that’s all mostly happening within 14 months of ETH taking over.
But if we sacked ETH last November things would of been vastly different?
Whatever about all this, that FA cup win, Liverpool win in fa cup and seeing the youngsters flourish has been some of the most satisfying and enjoyable moments for me in years. And there were really memorable moments in the first season aswell, not least the Barca tie.
A manager replacing ETH , maybe in November and maybe getting us 4th just wouldn’t have had the same impact for me. We’d be in CL but wouldn’t do much in it anyways. As a club we aren’t ready for that and it feels like ETH is the right man at the right time. We don’t need or want a journeyman to come in and squeeze us into the top 4, we need somebody who can work within the new INEOs process and if ETH is willing, I’m delighted.
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There's always nice PR pieces about how United are going to do it different each summer. The reality is that we're making the same mistakes we always have. Ten Hag should've been sacked ages ago, but keeping him on and giving him an extension is insanity, especially at this point in time.
We'll give him a fat pay off when he gets sacked, by which point the popular view will be that we never should've renewed his contract. A lot of our fans get sucked in in the moment but will eventually arrive at the same conclusion. It reminds me of the Mason Mount deal last summer, it was glaringly obvious to me (and plenty others) how that one would go but some people just weren't having it at the time.
Brilliant post.
Highlights the issues at the club which alot of people ignore because it doesn't suit their agenda.
We could have made the change got a new manager bounce and got top 4, come this season, the same cracks would open up again. We need to build from ground up, what Ten Hag did was say, no, I am not changing my style because this is how Manutd need to play, showed us why we need to make the right recruitment decisions.
He did change at the end but that is not how I want to see us play football, I want to see half way line CB's and we cant when you have Evans / Maguire / Lindelof, AWB in your squad playing regularly.
Again, superficial.
First, Villa dropped off in the last couple of matches after securing CL qualification and we won the last two, so the final margins became smaller - in garbage time.
Second, We were once second with Mourinho and we were second with Solskjaer, but people could see this was as far as it was going to go with them due to the way we played.
Two years into the ETH tenure, we've got no clear style of play or identity to build on. That's the big issue.
Did injuries affect performances and results? Absolutely. Are they a good enough reason for playing that badly for most of our matches and having no clear style? No.
I've no problem with ETH staying, but there's a limit to how blind we can be. There's a huge question mark over him.
We finished 8th, it’s not like ETH could hide behind our league position, our performances and league position were terrible. I’d hazard a reasonable guess that INEOs has more data and informed people looking at this then people in here who are absolutely certain about how things will play out.
The only rational conclusion is that they feel the circumstances surrounding last season were more relevant than what you or others think.
Well we did have a style of play of sorts. It just one that wasn't very conducive to controlling or indeed actually winning football matches.
Agree on the injuries, as bad as they were they alone can't explain the level of performances.
What are these many variables? Do they include making brain-dead substitutions at the end of games and persisting with a midfield fomation that is bypassed by even lower league teams? For your information, it is NOT insulting to have a contrary viewpoint. This is how mankind developed. Do you even know the meaning of that word? Thinking that someone is deluded is an opinion and is also NOT insulting. All you need to do is to provide a well-constructed counter-argument that shows you are not deluded.
One thing that has come out in this thread is that Ten Hag apologists are really fond of histrionics. All they repeat is the 'two seasons two trophies' chorus and any other relevant data is swept under the carpet. And when you say 'one of whom is me', are people supposed to be scared of you in this forum?
Ofcourse it's more than luck, big part of it was also us defending very well for 60 minutes in low block. But the point is, with a slightly less luck we don't win that game and ETH is gone. And that is not the right way to make a decision for the future.
Nobody is going to convince me INEOS took two weeks after the FA Cup game to "review" the season.
Very interesting article which doesn't really put either party in a negative light.
Varane and Casemiro came from a different school of thought, and given their CV its natural to harden in that. Ten Hag came with a job to instil discipline and a high press as requested by the higher ups and he didn't budge from it.
It's easy to play with more creative freedom at Real because its so star studded in quality, they'll get bailed out of every games. I don't think you can transcend that to United sustainably.
I've happy to give INEOS plenty of rope and plenty of time, but there are a lot of moving parts as we build this new structure so it's a little early to declare that they know so much of the situation when they've barely got their own people in to overlook things. They also had enough doubts over ETH to talk to other managers, even if they (logically) decided none of them offered enough for us to make a change.
I do expect us to do better next season, maybe much better. Because it'll be harder to repeat this season, because it will help if we suffer less injuries and because hopefully we'll now be able to make better signings and that ETH will be able to focus more on the coaching. However, that's kind of the big issue. His coaching has not been very impressive for a while now.
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Interesting to read just how much preparation Ten Hag puts into each training session, with the video meetings, pressing instructions etc.
I have heard pundits claiming we are the worst coached team they have seen. If Whitwell's write up is true, then you can say that its not for lack of trying on Ten Hag's part.
I have criticised Ten Hag for not adopting a more pragmatic approach to football. I still feel that criticism is valid. However, on a human level, you can probably understand how he ended up being so stubborn: If you're putting on training sessions and following up with group and individual meetings to get your players to understand what they need to do, then they don't do it, you probably interpret it as a battle of wills. Once you give into the players who just won't follow instructions there's a chance you lose your authority among the wider group.
Sensible post. And I agree with you that there is a degree of logic about that.
Read it properly, I didn't say it was insulting to disagree. I said dismissing people who disagree is insulting. That's not the same.
No, people are not deluded until proven otherwise. There is no need to go down that path in a discussion over football, just argue your points.
Histrionics? Scared? What is your issue?
The poster said they weren't being personal towards me, I was just pointing out that dismissing people willing to back the manager as deluded, included me, so it was in a way a personal insult.
Overall, weighing everything up, this is probably the right decision. It also gives Ineos proper time to assess everything and have a full season behind them, with the people they want, in place. It's a lot easier to reassess the manager at the end of next season.
A lot of fans know the backroom running of United has been dire under the Glazers, so it makes more sense to get a solid foundation in first, rather than making a knee-jerk reaction with a new manager and then sorting out the backroom. The manager knows the club, he knows the players, so it's one less headache for Ratcliffe at this moment in time. But make no mistake, I think once the new system is in place, the scrutiny will quickly focus on the manager and it won't just be one person who's looking at him either.
I know ETH hasn't had a great season, apart from the cup, but I do feel he's not had a great backroom behind him either. He's had to come in, offload deadwood, try and fix a style, dealt with Ronaldo, dealt with injuries...I'm actually interested to see what he can do, NOT having to worry about all the backroom stuff, with a proper team behind him.
Fergie was a one off, he used to do a lot of that because he'd been at the club even before the Glazers took over, but football has moved on now and we just haven't kept up.
I'm hopeful for the new season, but if ETH doesn't cut it, I'm worried to death well end up with Southgate.
A lot of fans know the backroom running of United has been dire under the Glazers, so it makes more sense to get a solid foundation in first, rather than making a knee-jerk reaction with a new manager and then sorting out the backroom. The manager knows the club, he knows the players, so it's one less headache for Ratcliffe at this moment in time. But make no mistake, I think once the new system is in place, the scrutiny will quickly focus on the manager and it won't just be one person who's looking at him either.
I know ETH hasn't had a great season, apart from the cup, but I do feel he's not had a great backroom behind him either. He's had to come in, offload deadwood, try and fix a style, dealt with Ronaldo, dealt with injuries...I'm actually interested to see what he can do, NOT having to worry about all the backroom stuff, with a proper team behind him.
Fergie was a one off, he used to do a lot of that because he'd been at the club even before the Glazers took over, but football has moved on now and we just haven't kept up.
I'm hopeful for the new season, but if ETH doesn't cut it, I'm worried to death well end up with Southgate.
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If he puts so much work into his sessions (and I don't doubt that), but the team still looks badly coached, then there are multiple possible explanations. It could be that he is coaching a style that doesn't work and that's why they look badly coached. I think that's your criticism and I do believe this plays at least a significant role in the problems we saw. It's also possible that as you say there is a battle of wills. But I don't believe in that as the players genuinely seemed to try (except very few exceptions like Ronaldo or Sancho, but they don't explain the overall situation). And it's possible that EtH is just bad at getting his ideas through to the players. We have seen reports that players are tired of those extremely long and detailed sessions, and I think it's plausible that he actually chose a wrong approach to that.
I can understand if he feels like the players lack a lot of tactical knowledge that he wants to hammer into their heads, after all the different managers and styles in the last years there highly likely is little common ground for some players, but he might overcomplicate this too much without getting the basics right first. This would explain to me how it's possible that the team looks so badly coached when there is so much work done.
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The obvious flaw when you fill your team with successful proven players. Tends to be the reason why these Dutch managers regimented football only works in the Eredivisie with junior players where they dominate the league with young[er] players who are at the highest level of their career presently.
Very worrying stuff, but it's not surprising in the least from someone who has little to no faith in this manager. I can see many of the comments saying stuff like "good riddance then" completely oblivious to the fact that these are two guys who have won it all and are top professionals who wouldn't just state this out of some sort of spite.
This pretty much says to me that the players had little faith in his tactics. Why didn't he try something different also when it was obvious we weren't suited or set up to play this way against most opposition in the league and CL group stage for that matter.
It's not worrying stuff. Or necessarily untrue or out of spite. Not every piece of news is sensational. If you have Real Mardrid's squad, managing them is not the same as most management gigs. If you just keep popping the best player available into your team you can be a bit looser I imagine Loook at Zidane, he won a pile of trophies with no managerial experience before or after Real. Wouldn't surprise me if he never coached again. They are quite a unique club
INEOs will make mistakes , maybe ETH will be one of them. There is no perfect answer here, as much as some people want to imply a change of manager equates to better. Hasn’t happened in 11 years, doesn’t mean keeping ETH will work out but considering our club is in a weird transitional period, people should be more open minded on this.
INEOs meeting other managers and weighing up everything is an objectively sound process if they are unsure about ETH. Having an absolute stance “ETH isn’t good enough, get rid” is a subjective one, especially if you have absolutely no idea what the determining factors were in keeping him.
He’s clearly a good coach. Most coaches at that level are good. Even in the first season we saw some really good stuff at times. Last season was so bad, it appears to be written off as an anomaly. And while ETH didn’t play it safe by choosing more pragmatic tactics, perhaps some of the risks he took made sense when all variables were considered.
Not losing the dressingroom is a massive flag of positivity for the manager. If players at that level think you are gone or sh*t, they don’t respond to you. If he was as poor as some of you make out he really wouldn’t have had such a backing and INEOs would have been told this during their enquiry.
Any other normal season I’d be with those who think he has to go. But last season was just so weird. His entire time at United has been punctuated with drama after drama. Maybe it doesn’t explain certain choices he made and maybe it doesn’t mean he’s gonna click into a better system or way of managing, when he has a settled club and a functional football operation behind him. But I’m fascinated to see if he can. More interesting then throwing another body at it.
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A manager getting us 4th would indicate significant progress. Next season is likely to be brutal for teams in the top leagues because of the Euros. Achieving 4th place would most likely mean improved team performances, more games won against teams in the bottom half and a better showing against those in the top half.This would also translate to a better showing in the CL group matches where MU are unlikely to come last in their group. So yes, I would have no problem with that journeyman. INEOS are supposed to be big on 'marginal gains' and coming 4th next season fits that philosophy.
Doesn't make good reading at all. Hardly inspires confidence that these players will buy into him turning things round, and who can blame them.
I'm mainly alluding to their comments on Ten Hag’s positional style of football, which has been an evidennt problem for the past two seasons, noticeably in midfield with the huge gaps appearing. It's no coincidence that we conceded a record amount of shots at Onana's goal last season. Injuries to the backline or not, it was a complete train wreck to witness.
No one denies ten hag has had a difficult job but he has also done it badly.
Our tactics last season were really bizarre and looked hugely flawed from the first game of the season but we're persisted with until we had no chance of the CL and had bombed out of an easy CL group.
The only time he has managed to get us looking halfway competent has been using oles counter attacking tactics which he was hired to move away from. He also says very confusing things about the style of play he is trying to achieve and this muddled approach shows on the pitch.
Ah yeah, everyone saw that. If that's not fixed immediately he will lose the support of everyone except his family I imagine. You'd just hope the new appointees highlighted that and there was a plausible reason and or fix?
It's a strange argument. Real Madrid have played English teams in the Champions League many times over the last years and have a very favorable record against them, which suggests the "liberal techniques" work perfectly fine.
All we can do is hope. I agree with everything you said by the way in your post on the uniqueness of managing Madrid, should have been more clear it was those specific comments.
But clearly the preparation and planning isn’t fit for purpose if you don’t see the benefits during matches. If people don’t understand the instructions you have to adapt.
My only question is why other managers at United weren’t given the time ETH was granted? What did ETH do that warranted more patience?