Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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Iker Quesadillas said:
I provided those examples because, as I said in my post, the less credible injury argument is that United can't perform without Lisandro Martinez (add Luke Shaw there too if you want) because he's super important to 'the way Ten Hag wants to play.' This argument was made many times in the earlier part of the season and is one of the reasons why there is backlash against bringing up injuries.

As for the effect of multiple injuries, I provided an example earlier. Real Madrid had a serious injury crisis in 21/22, here is an article in The Athletic: Real Madrid and their extraordinary injury crisis.



There were similarities between that season and United's season. The team's most important center back (Sergio Ramos) missed 22 league games. The team's most important full back (Dani Carvajal) missed 23 league games. His substitute(s) both missed 12 league games. Eden Hazard, signed to be one of the main attacking players, missed 22 league games. Madrid had something like 65 injuries that season. All these injuries meant they had to field strange lineups some times, the back four was constantly changing based on availability, they had to play youth teamers and cast-offs for CB and FB positions, etc. All similar issues as United.

But they performed well. They reached CL semis (which was an improvement on the previous two seasons when they crashed out in R16) and competed in the league until the last day. Now, did the injuries have an impact? Of course they did. The play was worse, the wins were more of a struggle, and when faced with a legitimately tough team (Chelsea in the CL semis) they were played off the pitch. They also didn't win the league, unlike the previous season (think there was a 4-5 point difference).

I don't think anyone has ever argued that injuries don't matter at all. The pushback is against the idea that there is a linear relationship between number of injuries and points lost, and that managers have no room to maneuver when it comes to injuries.
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I dont think you understand. When you have no left footed players in the back 4, you think that makes do difference in the balance of the team?

Real Madrid a team that always have great players compared to United? Also I have gone through the absenses, in links below to show you it was not the same.

Firstly, in 21/22 Ramos was not at Real Madrid, so I dont know where you got that Ramos played for Madrid in 21/22.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/manchester-united/ausfallzeiten/verein/985

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/real-madrid/ausfallzeiten/verein/418?reldata=ES1&2021

I will play along anyway. Real Madrid in 20/21 had injuries and didnt win the league or CL, which showed injuries have impacts. They had Varane and Nacho who are top class CB's, compared to Kambwala and Evans.

They had their midfield in place, Casemiro, Modrid, Kroos, Isco who were fit majority of the season and the ones who have been playing for Madrid for years.

Benzema missed 4 league games that season and Vini was fit all season. The fact that you are showing me a team that won the league season before got injuries and faltered highlights my points. Well, United also won the FA cup with all the injuries.
 
LawCharltonBest said:
Can't shake feeling that we've just delayed the inevitable. I don't want to think so negatively but can't see anything else happening.

If we're lingering outside the top 4 in November, are people going to remember the FA Cup win, or that we finished 8th? 2 months ago it seemed certain he was gone and 70% or more wanted that to happen. It'll quickly become like that again if/when we start losing games again in the early season.

If I were United I would drag out these new contract talks until December in case they want to U-turn
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Will you stay as staunch Ten Hag out if we start playing good football and winning games?
 
essao said:
When will people realize criticizing a manager does not mean they hate him?He may be a standup guy who sings at kids' birthdays,but this should not absolve him from criticism when he delivers crap performances. We should support the club,not the manager.
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Nobody thinks that. You're making things up.
There are people on here who criticise him and also those who do hate him and dish out personal insults.
 
Doracle said:
One of the reasons for keeping him though is apparently how much the players like him. As such, aren’t they going to try harder for him if they know they are playing for his future?

Anyway, we aren’t going to agree on this. I’m confident that giving him a new contract will make no difference to our prospects this season. A shame that things can’t play out in alternative universes, so we will never know who is right! Hopefully performances improve and render the discussion redundant in any event.
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It's grand. People more qualified than us are making the call anyway.
 
ForeverRed1 said:
He didn’t pay 80million for Antony though did he?

He identified Antony as a player he’d like to work with again.. he didn’t negotiate or agree on contract/price. It’s likely he had absolutely nothing to do with that.

infact Antony earlier on in that particular transfer window would of cost half of what they paid. They literally could have got him cheaper but decided to wait until the end of the window when Ajax couldn’t replace him and they wacked the price up.

But carry on with your false narrative and totally ignore the fact that our recruitment has been over spending and poor for years.
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What false narrative? And how is it 'mine'? I don't work for, negotiate any signings as I am sure is the case with you.

What amazes (and concerns me..) is the fact that it seems that you ignore the fact that he identified and signed and consistently picked Antony.

This is a dreadful player, has no business at Man Utd. But again, let's recall what our manager stated only a few months ago:

'..Antony, I've backed him for a long time. I know his abilities, he has great abilities. When he plays how I know from the past, he's unstoppable. No defender can stop him because he's one of the quickest players in the first 10 yards..'

So yes, give the man a new contract!

I don't care whether he decides the final price. The point is this was (another) ETH marquee signing.

But let's ignore that. We won the FA Cup. And we beat City.

City, Arsenal, Liverpool barely find us of relevance. And can you blame them? We are now a club that debates whether to keep Erik Ten Hag, or wait for Gareth Southgate.

Some may find all of that acceptable, but I do not. All.about opinions.
 
Jeffthered said:
Your response is personal, and that's rather pointless. As a member of the staff team, I commend you and colleagues on maintaining what is an excellent, excellent platform. But please keep matters football related ok.

Last season we were average at best, consistently abject and shockingly poor at times. ETH has shown little or no ability to take this football club onto the next level. I challenge you or anyone to suggest otherwise. This great cup win, this tactical masterclass right? Maybe watch the game again because I hope that isn't the blueprint of next season. Is that what you want?

Coventry City were inches from deservedly knocking us out.

But hey, let's forget that, ignore realism.

Daft, personal comments made to members of the forum serve no purpose at all. I'm more interested in the facts.
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You said the club was lost and insulted our fans, calling them delusional for not agreeing with you. I'm sorry but thats not the basis for the courtesy and rational response you demand.
 
horsechoker said:
What's "The 'bee noise' dressing room mickey-takers"?
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From the article:

More harmony is required in the dressing room. When Ten Hag arrived he attempted to instil his philosophy into his players telling them that when they did not have the ball he wanted to buzz around their opponents ‘like bees’, before making buzzing noises to make the point. At one point earlier this season some, according to sources, mimicked the noises when his back was turned.

Keegan does also call Onana "Andrew" in the article though...
 
Jeffthered said:
Our club is lost. And many of our fans are too. Completely delusional.

ETH is a nonsense of a manager. Did you note all those top teams, Barca, Bayern, Juventus, Liverpool, Chelsea... all have changed managers and not one, not one would even consider Erik Ten Hag.

Bayern Munich preferred Vincent Kompany.

And yet we still, still have some fans who think this is a good decision.

We deserve everything we get next season. And that will not be much.
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No one actually know if it's a good or a bad decision. The reality of the matter and this applies to both sides is that no one knows how things are going to go, some believe that last year was an anomaly and that ETH will right the ship and others think that the ship is going to sink.

One may question or support the process that led to that decision but no one can reliably predict the future. So move on and stop targeting other fans, that applies to everyone.
 
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Doracle said:
One of the reasons for keeping him though is apparently how much the players like him. As such, aren’t they going to try harder for him if they know they are playing for his future?

Anyway, we aren’t going to agree on this. I’m confident that giving him a new contract will make no difference to our prospects this season. A shame that things can’t play out in alternative universes, so we will never know who is right! Hopefully performances improve and render the discussion redundant in any event.
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IFF that is true, wish they had done that for majority of the last season.
 
romufc said:
Firstly, in 21/22 Ramos was not at Real Madrid, so I dont know where you got that Ramos played for Madrid in 21/22.
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It's an obvious typo, man. I was talking about the 20/21 season. That is the season the article I linked to talks about.

romufc said:
I will play along anyway. Real Madrid in 20/21 had injuries and didnt win the league or CL, which showed injuries have impacts.
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I specifically said that injuries have an impact. I don't think anyone is claiming that injuries can never have any impact whatsoever (as that is obviously absurd).

'Not winning the CL' is not an impact since as I mentioned, they performed better in the CL than in the previous two seasons. The impact in the league was 4-5 points iirc which is a far cry from the impact at Manchester United. That is how one might assess a manager performed really well given the circumstances.

romufc said:
They had Varane and Nacho who are top class CB's, compared to Kambwala and Evans.

They had their midfield in place, Casemiro, Modrid, Kroos, Isco who were fit majority of the season and the ones who have been playing for Madrid for years.

Benzema missed 4 league games that season and Vini was fit all season. The fact that you are showing me a team that won the league season before got injuries and faltered highlights my points. Well, United also won the FA cup with all the injuries.
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I think you're painting a rosier picture than the reality.

Isco was, for various reasons, washed. He barely played in three years. He was even jobless for six months. Vinicius Jr. was still very young and not very good or productive. He scored 6 goals that season. Varane and Casemiro play for Manchester United. Nacho ... is Nacho a "top CB" compared to, say, Jonny Evans? They are of similar ages (34 and 36). Neither were really consistent starters at a top club. Evans has ten times as many international caps as Nacho. Would United have had a radically different season if Nacho was one of their center backs? I honestly doubt it. I think Real Madrid had something like 65 injuries that season including a bunch of long-term ones. You can't possibly tell me that there is no comparison between that and what happened at United.

Since you brought up Casemiro it's worth noting that he was fit for the majority of the season at United, in fact he started most league games (24). The issue is he wasn't very good. That was arguably a bigger issue at United this season, players who did not perform.
 
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moses said:
You said the club was lost and insulted our fans, calling them delusional for not agreeing with you. I'm sorry but thats not the basis for the courtesy and rational response you demand.
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I do feel the club is lost. Look at the record since our success under SAF. You telling me that a description of the club being 'lost' is in any, any way unjustified? I have heard many, many, many, Manchester United legends describe the situation in far more derisory terms, as I'm sure you have. So stop that, as you know exactly what I mean.

And I do think some (and I very, very clearly stated some) fans are deluded, to think that things will change under Erik Ten Hag.

Give me a reason, one reason to suggest otherwise.

And again, note, I have made no comment that is directed or personable to you. Please don't make this personal, I'm not.
 
Castia said:
Worrying hearing murmurings about a small transfer budget. Not expecting to spend 400m but damn this squad needs improving else the season is a write off regardless of who’s in charge
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That's what happens when a manager wastes £400m.
 
romufc said:
Will you stay as staunch Ten Hag out if we start playing good football and winning games?
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You're mistaking my personal feelings with what I think

I voted for him to stay. Mostly because I don't think there was an outstanding hire, like when Guardiola and Klopp became available to city and Liverpool

If we start playing well and winning I'll be delighted to have been wrong. But I'll ask you, do you realistically think it'll suddenly be much better from August? I think there will be defeats and patience is going to run out with him much faster than it would have done with a new manager who isn't in a 3rd season with a squad that is mostly his own.
 
Jeffthered said:
I do feel the club is lost. Look at the record since our success under SAF. You telling me that a description of the club being 'lost' is in any, any way unjustified? I have heard many, many, many, Manchester United legends describe the situation in far more derisory terms, as I'm sure you have. So stop that, as you know exactly what I mean.

And I do think some (and I very, very clearly stated some) fans are deluded, to think that things will change under Erik Ten Hag.

Give me a reason, one reason to suggest otherwise.

And again, note, I have made no comment that is directed or personable to you. Please don't make this personal, I'm not.
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I think dismissing people who disagree with you on a matter with so many variables is insulting. And while you may not be naming them, it's still an insult.

The club is definitely in a lean period but with new people in control of the football side of things. I don't see that as lost.

If you go around insulting swathes of people as deluded, one of whom is me, then you need thicker skin.
 
Wilt said:
What exactly is Ten Hag‘s “process” ….tbh after £400m spent I’ve yet to find out what it is?
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Playing through the press from the back, pressing, quick attacking football. Watch some Ajax games against top European sides to get an idea of where it is going.
 
JPRouve said:
No one actually know if it's a good or a bad decision. The reality of the matter and this applies to both sides is that no one knows how things are going to go, some believe that last year was an anomaly and that ETH will right the ship and others think that the ship is going to sink.

One may question or support the process that led to that decision but no one can reliably predict the future. So move on and stop targeting other fans, that applies to everyone.
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It's not just last year. We were really quite poor for a large proportion of his first season
 
Jeffthered said:
But again, let's recall what our manager stated only a few months ago:

'..Antony, I've backed him for a long time. I know his abilities, he has great abilities. When he plays how I know from the past, he's unstoppable. No defender can stop him because he's one of the quickest players in the first 10 yards..'

So yes, give the man a new contract!
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Right, let's slag off players publicly in the press, that's going to help them play better right? Rashford had a spectacularly shit season too but he still supported him all along.

Seriously listen to some of things you are saying.
 
Matt851 said:
It's not just last year. We were really quite poor for a large proportion of his first season
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Well it is the season we were absolutely humiliated 7-0 to the dippers, so nobody can really make a case that it was sunshine and roses. After that league cup win we basically became a version of what we've seen all this season, injuries or not. Starting with that Wolves disaster of a performance at Old Trafford.
 
Matt851 said:
It's not just last year. We were really quite poor for a large proportion of his first season
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Yes, but ETH pushed the correct buttons to get results during his first season. Some fans only care about results which is why you will see many "ETH In" posters bring up the cup wins and the top 4 finish, the particularly poor league and continental cup results are seen as outliers. The point being that there is a reasoning and whether you agree with it or not is now pointless, the following months will tell us what is what.
 
NLunited said:
Playing through the press from the back, pressing, quick attacking football. Watch some Ajax games against top European sides to get an idea of where it is going.
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Honestly, I'd say even watching the u-18s this last season should give an idea on what he was intending to play. Weren't there reports that he wanted the academy to play a similar system to the first team or did I imagine that? Anyways, I felt there were a lot of similarities with the aggressive high pressing system.


Found the article : https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...ws/manchester-united-academy-ten-hag-27402347

We planned this over months, so we know already for a long time how it has to look like, we're planning this," Ten Hag told reporters ahead of the game.

"We bring the Under-21s in, one team will stay behind, I will stay here as well, we will bring a coach and technical director Darren Fletcher in, we bring in an analyst, the kit men stay behind to help the team from the Under-21s but of course it is Travis, he is the one who is in charge of that team, I will help him and support him.

"Under-21s is part of the first squad under my supervision, we want to have a red line in our club, so the principles and rules from the first team down to the bottom, how we want to play because we want to educate the team's players in the United way and it's easier to flow into the first-team squad, that's why this trip is very useful for us."
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Leftback99 said:
Hence everyone is making such a big fuss over Ten Hag's 'veto'.
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Probably why there's talk of new contract which will alter his current contract and clearly outline what his new responsibilities will be in the new contract. With all the restructuring going around I won't be surprised to see his role change to that of a head coach from a manager.
 
saik said:
Probably why there's talk of new contract which will alter his current contract and clearly outline what his new responsibilities will be in the new contract. With all the restructuring going around I won't be surprised to see his role change to that of a head coach from a manager.
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The further from transfers with his record the better.
 
So he's moving from buying players and setting the playing style to being told how to play and given the players to do it plus an additional coach to make sure he does. Looks like he has basically been fired as manager and re-employed as head coach.
 
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