Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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JPRouve said:
Yes and no. Yes in theory we are supposed to regain possession quickly. But the link that you make with the back line is wrong and it also has nothing to do with the midfielders working harder. I have tried to make that point many times and it's pretty clear that I'm miserably failing. The gaps that needs to be filled are between the pressing front four and the backline, that gap would still be massive if the backline moved 5 meter up because it is nearly entirely in the opposition half and your backline should never find itself in the opposition half during a counter attack because there would be no offside trap, so you end up with the absolutely silly situation where you still have massive gaps and you also oppened the door to every single long ball with the oppostion having nearly no worry for a offside which was Liverpool's issue during their first months under Klopp, their pressing failed to prevent accurate exits and their highline would be exposed with long balls, the same has been true for Leipzig when they don't execute their pressing properly or their front 6 positioning is subpar or Barcelona under Koeman and Valverde.

Now the answer to our actual issue are twofold. Assignments and positioning, there is a theory when it comes to pressing which is that a vertical pass should eliminate as little defenders as possible which exposes the positioning of our front six but more specifically our front 4 which is generally on a single line around the opposition box with one player pressing and no one cutting passing angles or marking and then there is the added issue of the two midfielders being engaged very high and vulnerable to be bypassed by the same pass that eliminated their teammates which leaves us with our back four completely isolated and with no realistic answer. Generally better schemes involve setups with more layers, in our case defending in 4222 instead of 424(415) would fix a lot of our spatial issues, you can also defend in a strict 4231 or 41131 but the key is to create more layers, the other thing is a mix of assignments, when you use a high press you don't want to engage too many players at once, you want to have the abilty to swarm ball carriers and generally press in waves of two or three players and trap the opposition between players that are tracking back and players that are pressing up. Keep in mind that the ball is mostly in the middle third, it's rare for teams to prevent passes into the middle third, that's where your pressing scheme is the most important, the first wave main goal is to provoke a less than ideal pass that allows the second or third wave to regain possession easily, but you won't have a second or third wave if you don't have a layered setup and traps in the middle third.

TL, DR: Our issues are with the way we press and the way our front six covers the pitch in the opposition's half especially in relation to the way we attack, we have a vertical style which by design creates more turnovers and more situations that expose or very average transition defence. And generally teams that are very good and press high are possession teams in the sense that offensively they transition methodically and reduce turnovers opportunities.

And if you don't believe me checkout where are nearly all the elite teams in Europe. They play slow and intricate passes(Liverpool being the outlier), which determines how you are supposed to setup your transition defense, it's about how you expect to lose the ball and how you can deal with it.
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Fascinating post. Does this not imply that ETH is tactically completely inept then? Where I would take issue is the assumption that we would be defending in the opposition half. A high press would never be that high. But yes having such a depleted midfield implies that would be necessary and I'm not sure how it's supposed to work in ETH's head.
 
If I was a betting man, I would bet a good amount that we'll be dragging our feet like this all summer long. Nothing ever seems to change with this club.

We'll be preparing bids all summer long and doing very little. Then we'll start next season with the likes of Rashford and Maguire in the starting lineup, Ten Hag bobbling his head all over in his technical area, and then we'll all be shocked when we start losing matches again.
 
Vidooq said:
If there was one thing that embodies the Glazers, it is exactly this. Standing still. I do not understand what kind of review is needed, honestly. You had ample time to make a decision on the coach, so this review seems like buying themselves time to make it official that he is sacked.

This limbo we are in now with the coach also affects us in extending players' contracts, buying players, and selling players. Just take a look at Real Madrid, who won the Champions League less than 48 hours ago. Since then, they have already:
  • Signed Mbappe
  • Extended Luka Modric contract
  • Extended Lucas Vasquez contract
I know it's the start of June, and there is plenty of time. Barrada is starting in 45 days, and Ashforth is still in limbo. However, I have PTSD of this standing still from the Glazers, and I want things done yesterday for a change. Chelsea sacked their coach, hired a new one, and signed Aderabiyo on a free. The last thing I want for us is for the World to know we desperately need players come to the start of the season, and everybody starts asking us for 80-100 million for our targets.

So pardon my panic, but I want things done faster for a change.
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You do know that Madrid were propbably negotiating with Vasquez and Madrid for some months. Moreover it’s not like Mbappe to Madrid is new news. Chill
 
Von Mistelroum said:
If I was a betting man, I would bet a good amount that we'll be dragging our feet like this all summer long. Nothing ever seems to change with this club.

We'll be preparing bids all summer long and doing very little. Then we'll start next season with the likes of Rashford and Maguire in the starting lineup, Ten Hag bobbling his head all over in his technical area, and then we'll all be shocked when we start losing matches again.
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Exactly this, we will spend a whole pre season with maybe 1 player, the manager will have to adapt and play players he doesn't want, cant play his style and start the season, lose a few games, panic, sign players for big fees.

Its the recent history and heritage of manutd to do this.

INEOS at the moment are not giving me any encouragement that this will change.

You will get pro INEOS fans who will say, but the structure isnt there, transfer window isnt open, its the EUROS, players are on holiday excuses whilst every club does deals and we are holding excuses.
 
FootballAI said:
Technically INEOS doesn't have to resolve ETH's situation so quickly for 3 main reasons:
1. Their strategy of not letting the manager to dictate player transfer activities means they can focus on the player transfer before making the manager decision
2. Euro is coming, most 1st team players will not be available to train with ETH or the new manager
3. Give time for themselves to negotiate with several potential new managers. ETH is not going anywhere until this is done anyway

It seems not fair to ETH but what is his other option but to wait. He did not do a good job last season to have much bargaining power with the INEOS people.
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This uncertainty is not right in an environment where moral, trust and authority are determinant.
 
It's almost amusing the frenzy the press has got some of you in. Surely you can also see the back tracking since the fa cup. The same journos who told you a review was being done before the end of the season, they then told you he was sacked no matter after the fa cup, they then revert to actually the review is the week after. Now watch the stories die down. In fact the pretty much already have. It's what the press do everytime they are wrong :lol:.

I'm not sure what announcement you are waiting for. The club isn't going to announce he is staying just because the press come out with a load of stories - a bit like the club don't make announcements every time the press claim we are going to sign a player.

If he was getting the sack it would have been last week. Announcing they have decided to keep him...well you may as well have sacked him.

It's going to be a long summer for some of you, I can see it now, end of July and its still "I think they we announce it next week".
 
Von Mistelroum said:
If I was a betting man, I would bet a good amount that we'll be dragging our feet like this all summer long. Nothing ever seems to change with this club.

We'll be preparing bids all summer long and doing very little. Then we'll start next season with the likes of Rashford and Maguire in the starting lineup, Ten Hag bobbling his head all over in his technical area, and then we'll all be shocked when we start losing matches again.
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I'd predict that we will have some sort of clarity on the situation before Thursday, but letting it drag on further wouldn't surprise me either. Especially with Ten Hag on holiday and not available for face to face discussions, Berrada not officially starting for another 6 weeks, and no known development to the Ashworth situation despite being told that the arbitration would be in May.
 
astracrazy said:
It's almost amusing the frenzy the press has got some of you in. Surely you can also see the back tracking since the fa cup. The same journos who told you a review was being done before the end of the season, they then told you he was sacked no matter after the fa cup, they then revert to actually the review is the week after. Now watch the stories die down. In fact the pretty much already have. It's what the press do everytime they are wrong :lol:.

I'm not sure what announcement you are waiting for. The club isn't going to announce he is staying just because the press come out with a load of stories - a bit like the club don't make announcements every time the press claim we are going to sign a player.

If he was getting the sack it would have been last week. Announcing they have decided to keep him...well you may as well have sacked him.

It's going to be a long summer for some of you, I can see it now, end of July and its still "I think they we announce it next week".
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After what happened with LVG, that wasn't happening. Maybe if we got embarrassed in the final. ETH went straight on holiday so nothing is happening until he's back in my opinion.
 
astracrazy said:
It's almost amusing the frenzy the press has got some of you in. Surely you can also see the back tracking since the fa cup. The same journos who told you a review was being done before the end of the season, they then told you he was sacked no matter after the fa cup, they then revert to actually the review is the week after. Now watch the stories die down. In fact the pretty much already have. It's what the press do everytime they are wrong :lol:.

I'm not sure what announcement you are waiting for. The club isn't going to announce he is staying just because the press come out with a load of stories - a bit like the club don't make announcements every time the press claim we are going to sign a player.

If he was getting the sack it would have been last week. Announcing they have decided to keep him...well you may as well have sacked him.

It's going to be a long summer for some of you, I can see it now, end of July and its still "I think they we announce it next week".
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I dont think so, when new owners come in, then say things like we will review the managers position, it is imperative they make a statement of some sorts.

Considering how many times SJR has been asked about Ten Hag and he has avoided all of that, even he knows either way they need to make a statement.
 
romufc said:
I dont think so, when new owners come in, then say things like we will review the managers position, it is imperative they make a statement of some sorts.

Considering how many times SJR has been asked about Ten Hag and he has avoided all of that, even he knows either way they need to make a statement.
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Like I said...long summer.
 
astracrazy said:
It's almost amusing the frenzy the press has got some of you in. Surely you can also see the back tracking since the fa cup. The same journos who told you a review was being done before the end of the season, they then told you he was sacked no matter after the fa cup, they then revert to actually the review is the week after. Now watch the stories die down. In fact the pretty much already have. It's what the press do everytime they are wrong :lol:.

I'm not sure what announcement you are waiting for. The club isn't going to announce he is staying just because the press come out with a load of stories - a bit like the club don't make announcements every time the press claim we are going to sign a player.

If he was getting the sack it would have been last week. Announcing they have decided to keep him...well you may as well have sacked him.

It's going to be a long summer for some of you, I can see it now, end of July and its still "I think they we announce it next week".
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I guess it's a lot easier when you support another team
 
"Oh Daddy, Jim, thank you for preaching patience in our decision making, hopefully we can be a serious club under your stewardship"

*2 months later*

"INEOS OUT! THIS IS NO DIFFERENT TO THE GLAZERS !!! WHY DIDN'T WE SACK HIM 3 YEARS AGO!!"
 
mu4c_20le said:
You seem awfully happy with our situation.
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:lol:

Quiet amusing coming from someone whos first reaction to winning the FA cup was begging SJR to pull an LVG.

I guess thats the sort of situation you are happy for a team to be in, and you have the brass neck to say I must support another team. Embarrassing.
 
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Taking so long only makes sense if they're waiting to sack him and are negotiating with someone else to put them quickly into the job.

Otherwise it's an even more embarrassing farce than anything the Glazers managed.
 
hobbers said:
Taking so long only makes sense if they're waiting to sack him and are negotiating with someone else to put them quickly into the job.

Otherwise it's an even more embarrassing farce than anything the Glazers managed.
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Maybe the club has already decided on keeping ETH and are just biding their time on the announcement?
 
hobbers said:
Taking so long only makes sense if they're waiting to sack him and are negotiating with someone else to put them quickly into the job.

Otherwise it's an even more embarrassing farce than anything the Glazers managed.
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You cant take this long and decide to keep him, clearly they dont have confidence in him if its taking 2/3 months to decide whether he is the man or not?

They started the review in when Cox was appointed. If its taking 3 months to decide on the whether to keep the manager or not, how long will it take to appoint one?
 
Berbaclass said:
Have no idea what's taking so long. Sort it or abort it.

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Who is even doing the review?

Pretty sure Ineos have indicated that they won’t get involved in the footballing decisions.

That just leaves Jason Wilcox sitting in an office by himself jumping from seat to seat and arguing with different versions of himself
 
Any competent owners (especially fairly new ones) will be conducting an ongoing review ever they stepped foot in the place officially six months ago. Doing an ‘end of season review’ with seemingly no review before that (like the press are suggesting) just runs the risk of recency bias influencing your decision. Does winning the FA Cup last game of the season hold more weight than any of our embarrassing Champions League games or getting destroyed by Bournemouth at home or Palace away?

Are the press just second-guessing our moves and this ‘end of season review’ is just based on conjecture?
 
The longer it drags the more inclined I am to believe he’s staying, unfortunately.
 
glazed said:
Fascinating post. Does this not imply that ETH is tactically completely inept then? Where I would take issue is the assumption that we would be defending in the opposition half. A high press would never be that high. But yes having such a depleted midfield implies that would be necessary and I'm not sure how it's supposed to work in ETH's head.
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I don't think that he is inept because his history suggests otherwise. I simply think that for some reason when he planned to tweak our system he overlooked some things and doubled down out of pride or stubbornness. It wouldn't be the first manager to do it, nor the last. I also believe that he will fix it if he stays but I am bothered by the fact that he didn't do it earlier and for that reason I will have a hard time trusting his mentality in the future.

Also my assumption isn't that the back line should be in the opposition's half, I'm being facetious because people keep bringing the defensive line height into an issue that is 30-40m above that line, keeping in mind that the highest lines in Europe are roughly 6-7m higher, you still have 30m² of desolated midfield. The point I'm making is that it's not where people should focus their minds and they should also take into account the fact that a higher defensive line isn't a good match for a team that wants to play fast and direct Football unless you are extremely good at pressing the opposition in their own third of the field, the two examples of that are Tottenham around 2016 and to some extent Liverpool since 2017-2018, but both teams packed their midfield and had midfielders that would rarely enter the final third which is the opposite of what we have done since the second half of last season.

ETH tried to mix concepts that can't be mixed because they expose each others. And you end up with a subpar attack and defense.
 
That part of the Sun article is spot on though.

Even if they decide to keep him they couldnt have made it any clearer it's by default and hes not actually wanted. It's the biggest managerial undermining job ever.
 
TsuWave said:
The longer it drags the more inclined I am to believe he’s staying, unfortunately.
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I am inclined to think the opposite.

The longer the review goes on, the more Ten Hag would think they dont believe him.

It would have been easy to keep him if they wanted to by saying, Ten Hag has a contract and we back him. The fact that SJR has avoided that topic from day 1, didnt't seem to keep on him at the trophy lift, no mention of the manager in his tweet, all points to a sack.
 
romufc said:
Exactly this, we will spend a whole pre season with maybe 1 player, the manager will have to adapt and play players he doesn't want, cant play his style and start the season, lose a few games, panic, sign players for big fees.

Its the recent history and heritage of manutd to do this.

INEOS at the moment are not giving me any encouragement that this will change.

You will get pro INEOS fans who will say, but the structure isnt there, transfer window isnt open, its the EUROS, players are on holiday excuses whilst every club does deals and we are holding excuses.
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You missed 'Ten Hag uses this as an excuse as to why he has no style of play and opposition teams are averaging 30 shots per match on our goal' - which is practically guaranteed to happen.
 
Not taking any responsibility for the transfers should be the last drop! I can't believe the nerve of this fella :lol:
 
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romufc said:
I am inclined to think the opposite.

The longer the review goes on, the more Ten Hag would think they dont believe him.

It would have been easy to keep him if they wanted to by saying, Ten Hag has a contract and we back him. The fact that SJR has avoided that topic from day 1, didnt't seem to keep on him at the trophy lift, no mention of the manager in his tweet, all points to a sack.
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Valid, and I’ve considered that angle, but now I’m looking at it like - “staying” is the default position, and it would be easier to act as if all the noise around Ten Hag was media speculation and the club was always intent on keeping him.

For clarification - I do think they’ve considered sacking, I just think people rallied around Ten Hag fiercely in a manner that they weren’t expecting to. No decision til now doesn’t bode well for next season, so it might just be easier to keep Ten Hag than getting someone else in with not a great deal of time to review/prepare and forecast for next season.
 
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Von Mistelroum said:
If I was a betting man, I would bet a good amount that we'll be dragging our feet like this all summer long. Nothing ever seems to change with this club.

We'll be preparing bids all summer long and doing very little. Then we'll start next season with the likes of Rashford and Maguire in the starting lineup, Ten Hag bobbling his head all over in his technical area, and then we'll all be shocked when we start losing matches again.
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Yeah I can see this happening especially as Berrada doesn't start until mid July and doubt we see Ashworth until next window
 
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