Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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romufc said:
We made "positive" changes but that's on paper, we dont know what effect that will have in real time. They have been talking to potential candidates prior to sacking him, as per reports.

To say we have made positive changes based on 0 evidence is also a false narrative.
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I think you contradict yourself a bit there. You say we make positive changes on paper then then also that it’s a false narrative.
To me it’s hardly false to say we have hired people with experience at top clubs who have shown they can have a positive influence from the experience. The athletic did a piece on Blanc, Wilcox and berrada. Informative and has me hopeful. Of course nothing is guaranteed but then you’d have to take that approach with every decision made. Do you do this?

Also the transfer window isn’t open yet so we will have to wait really to see if the effects are truly 0.
 
glazed said:
Isn't that the point. We're supposed to get and keep possession by pressing high when we lose the ball and then scoring quickly off the back? It seems beyond obvious you can't high press if your defence doesn't push up though. I'm surprised that's a matter of debate. Yes your midfield has to work a lot harder too. Everyone does. Probably why these high press teams need constant renewal.
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Yes and no. Yes in theory we are supposed to regain possession quickly. But the link that you make with the back line is wrong and it also has nothing to do with the midfielders working harder. I have tried to make that point many times and it's pretty clear that I'm miserably failing. The gaps that needs to be filled are between the pressing front four and the backline, that gap would still be massive if the backline moved 5 meter up because it is nearly entirely in the opposition half and your backline should never find itself in the opposition half during a counter attack because there would be no offside trap, so you end up with the absolutely silly situation where you still have massive gaps and you also oppened the door to every single long ball with the oppostion having nearly no worry for a offside which was Liverpool's issue during their first months under Klopp, their pressing failed to prevent accurate exits and their highline would be exposed with long balls, the same has been true for Leipzig when they don't execute their pressing properly or their front 6 positioning is subpar or Barcelona under Koeman and Valverde.

Now the answer to our actual issue are twofold. Assignments and positioning, there is a theory when it comes to pressing which is that a vertical pass should eliminate as little defenders as possible which exposes the positioning of our front six but more specifically our front 4 which is generally on a single line around the opposition box with one player pressing and no one cutting passing angles or marking and then there is the added issue of the two midfielders being engaged very high and vulnerable to be bypassed by the same pass that eliminated their teammates which leaves us with our back four completely isolated and with no realistic answer. Generally better schemes involve setups with more layers, in our case defending in 4222 instead of 424(415) would fix a lot of our spatial issues, you can also defend in a strict 4231 or 41131 but the key is to create more layers, the other thing is a mix of assignments, when you use a high press you don't want to engage too many players at once, you want to have the abilty to swarm ball carriers and generally press in waves of two or three players and trap the opposition between players that are tracking back and players that are pressing up. Keep in mind that the ball is mostly in the middle third, it's rare for teams to prevent passes into the middle third, that's where your pressing scheme is the most important, the first wave main goal is to provoke a less than ideal pass that allows the second or third wave to regain possession easily, but you won't have a second or third wave if you don't have a layered setup and traps in the middle third.

TL, DR: Our issues are with the way we press and the way our front six covers the pitch in the opposition's half especially in relation to the way we attack, we have a vertical style which by design creates more turnovers and more situations that expose or very average transition defence. And generally teams that are very good and press high are possession teams in the sense that offensively they transition methodically and reduce turnovers opportunities.

And if you don't believe me checkout where are nearly all the elite teams in Europe. They play slow and intricate passes(Liverpool being the outlier), which determines how you are supposed to setup your transition defense, it's about how you expect to lose the ball and how you can deal with it.
 
I have read somewhere that Blanc and Berrada are both understanding of the fact that Ten Hag has over delivered based on the squad he has and the issues he has faced over the last 2 seasons. They both like him, they both think he's the right man to get us to where we need to be, providing the structure is in place before the start of the new season. We're keeping ETH, and rightly so. He has delivered us success. Yes, the league position was the worst we've had, but he's delivering silverware. They see no reason why this can't be done in the league.
 
Borninthe80ts said:
I think you contradict yourself a bit there. You say we make positive changes on paper then then also that it’s a false narrative.
To me it’s hardly false to say we have hired people with experience at top clubs who have shown they can have a positive influence from the experience. The athletic did a piece on Blanc, Wilcox and berrada. Informative and has me hopeful. Of course nothing is guaranteed but then you’d have to take that approach with every decision made. Do you do this?

Also the transfer window isn’t open yet so we will have to wait really to see if the effects are truly 0.
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Yes, they seem like positive changes, we wont know until its implemented.

I just dont trust Manchester United until there is a difference.

I think we just have to wait and see, this can be partially judged end of the window in terms of, signings made, value of signings and how quickly the deals are done.
 
Vidooq said:
If there was one thing that embodies the Glazers, it is exactly this. Standing still. I do not understand what kind of review is needed, honestly. You had ample time to make a decision on the coach, so this review seems like buying themselves time to make it official that he is sacked.

This limbo we are in now with the coach also affects us in extending players' contracts, buying players, and selling players. Just take a look at Real Madrid, who won the Champions League less than 48 hours ago. Since then, they have already:
  • Signed Mbappe
  • Extended Luka Modric contract
  • Extended Lucas Vasquez contract
I know it's the start of June, and there is plenty of time. Barrada is starting in 45 days, and Ashforth is still in limbo. However, I have PTSD of this standing still from the Glazers, and I want things done yesterday for a change. Chelsea sacked their coach, hired a new one, and signed Aderabiyo on a free. The last thing I want for us is for the World to know we desperately need players come to the start of the season, and everybody starts asking us for 80-100 million for our targets.

So pardon my panic, but I want things done faster for a change.
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I totally agree that the review should be completed. ETH's fate should be decide prior to FA Cup, winning the FA Cup shouldn't impact the decision. We don't use a 1 game to decide whether ETH is the right man.
 
Vidooq said:
If there was one thing that embodies the Glazers, it is exactly this. Standing still. I do not understand what kind of review is needed, honestly. You had ample time to make a decision on the coach, so this review seems like buying themselves time to make it official that he is sacked.

This limbo we are in now with the coach also affects us in extending players' contracts, buying players, and selling players. Just take a look at Real Madrid, who won the Champions League less than 48 hours ago. Since then, they have already:
  • Signed Mbappe
  • Extended Luka Modric contract
  • Extended Lucas Vasquez contract
I know it's the start of June, and there is plenty of time. Barrada is starting in 45 days, and Ashforth is still in limbo. However, I have PTSD of this standing still from the Glazers, and I want things done yesterday for a change. Chelsea sacked their coach, hired a new one, and signed Aderabiyo on a free. The last thing I want for us is for the World to know we desperately need players come to the start of the season, and everybody starts asking us for 80-100 million for our targets.

So pardon my panic, but I want things done faster for a change.
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Being slow to move with anything is our signature under the Glazers. Many of our summer transfer windows have consisted of late buys and paying over the odds.

A review really shouldn't be required now. They should have done it already as one game (the final) shouldn't change anything. We really need to know this week who our manager will be next season.
 
doubleohseven said:
The charge of incompetence is an ongoing process, with a variety of malefactors to contend with. Ashworth will want his mate in but Blanc will probably have watched football at some point. Brailsford is weighing up the evidence and communicating rapidly to Brexit Jim, just not via email.
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Haha it sounds shady when you put it like that. Everyone in their new respective roles will have to constantly prove themselves and will be under intense scrutiny so I’m sure they will want to make the ‘right’ decisions. I think I’m just waiting to see what decisions are made before I comment. Of course inactivity can be deemed an action too however I’m sure it’s a case of waiting rather than nothing happening.
 
Real Madras said:
I have read somewhere that Blanc and Berrada are both understanding of the fact that Ten Hag has over delivered based on the squad he has and the issues he has faced over the last 2 seasons. They both like him, they both think he's the right man to get us to where we need to be, providing the structure is in place before the start of the new season. We're keeping ETH, and rightly so. He has delivered us success. Yes, the league position was the worst we've had, but he's delivering silverware. They see no reason why this can't be done in the league.
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It wasn't just the league position was it though? 8th is terrible but the uncomfortable truth is the level of performances should have seen Utd down in 13th-15th, which is pretty much peerless in terms of how awful the level of performance was, unmatched by any major club in the modern era, if that is shortsighted hyperbole and anyone has an alternative suggestion, go for it.

Injuries are an issue but this full press on blaming everything on them is delusional, Utd were systematically a mess, no matter who played, with a near full team or reserves, his set up and approach showed so few to no signs of being viable over a league campaign. Worst part is that as the second half of the season rolled in, Utd out of Europe, more time to work with the team, the performances got worse!!

You really have to ignore a lot of red flags to have unshakable belief in Ten Hag, even his good season, 22/23 had many worrying trends.
 
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Vidooq said:
If there was one thing that embodies the Glazers, it is exactly this. Standing still. I do not understand what kind of review is needed, honestly. You had ample time to make a decision on the coach, so this review seems like buying themselves time to make it official that he is sacked.

This limbo we are in now with the coach also affects us in extending players' contracts, buying players, and selling players. Just take a look at Real Madrid, who won the Champions League less than 48 hours ago. Since then, they have already:
  • Signed Mbappe
  • Extended Luka Modric contract
  • Extended Lucas Vasquez contract
I know it's the start of June, and there is plenty of time. Barrada is starting in 45 days, and Ashforth is still in limbo. However, I have PTSD of this standing still from the Glazers, and I want things done yesterday for a change. Chelsea sacked their coach, hired a new one, and signed Aderabiyo on a free. The last thing I want for us is for the World to know we desperately need players come to the start of the season, and everybody starts asking us for 80-100 million for our targets.

So pardon my panic, but I want things done faster for a change.
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They haven't done these things in 48 hours, they've just announced them. Mbappe hasn't officially been announced either.
 
This is becoming a bit of a mess to be honest. You would assume they had some sense of which way the wind was blowing in recent months, despite their talk about an end of season review - is there review so impacted by the final few games? They just look indecisive, and also looked out of sorts around the cup final with the unhelpful stories coming out. The league ended 2 weeks ago, our pre season starts in less than a month. Back him or sack him.
 
romufc said:
Yes, they seem like positive changes, we wont know until its implemented.

I just dont trust Manchester United until there is a difference.

I think we just have to wait and see, this can be partially judged end of the window in terms of, signings made, value of signings and how quickly the deals are done.
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Ok cool so based on what we do know I’m going to take them as what they are. Attempts at steps in the right direction. All the people in positions of power have football pedigree and this is different from previous seasons.

I was stressing a wait and see mentality in my first post and it applies both ways. We can’t judge them and say their fearful and incompetent more than can say they have been a success yet.

It’ll take time and if people are frustrated now then I fear for some folks in the future.
 
horsechoker said:
They haven't done these things in 48 hours, they've just announced them. Mbappe hasn't officially been announced either.
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Fair point. Let me re-phrase it. They've done the groundwork for these things. Does it look to you like we've done this with potential targets, and that we have imminent signings that we can announce?
 
There has been no new manager links to us, not since the day before the FA Cup final ever since. Everything has absolutely quieten down, so i’ll think for this reason he will stay
 
Nevilles.Wear.Prada said:
Over 50% wants him to stay??!! Jesus christ
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This shocked me too, until I saw that outside of this forum it's more like 80-90%!

I guess the Glazers have been exceptionally successful at lowering the standards of fans.

Finishing 8th and scraping the FA Cup when Coventry should have booted us out is more than enough for some people to genuinely be seeking a new contract on behalf of a manager setting new, unwanted records on a regular basis.

This is why we're where we are, and where we're likely to stay.
 
It's probably quieter now about us having a new manager than when things were actually going well for Ten Hag, that's how little real chatter there is about someone coming in.
 
Vidooq said:
If there was one thing that embodies the Glazers, it is exactly this. Standing still. I do not understand what kind of review is needed, honestly. You had ample time to make a decision on the coach, so this review seems like buying themselves time to make it official that he is sacked.

This limbo we are in now with the coach also affects us in extending players' contracts, buying players, and selling players. Just take a look at Real Madrid, who won the Champions League less than 48 hours ago. Since then, they have already:
  • Signed Mbappe
  • Extended Luka Modric contract
  • Extended Lucas Vasquez contract
I know it's the start of June, and there is plenty of time. Barrada is starting in 45 days, and Ashforth is still in limbo. However, I have PTSD of this standing still from the Glazers, and I want things done yesterday for a change. Chelsea sacked their coach, hired a new one, and signed Aderabiyo on a free. The last thing I want for us is for the World to know we desperately need players come to the start of the season, and everybody starts asking us for 80-100 million for our targets.

So pardon my panic, but I want things done faster for a change.
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I agree. There should have been a statement made either way by now.

I really don’t think he should stay on. Other teams had a lot of injuries too but didn’t concede nearly as many shots on goal. Most of our injury problems were with the back four, but it was how open we were in midfield that allowed teams to run directly at the back four.

In the cup final, yes, we were more compact through the middle but we sat deep and relied on good counters, we can’t play like that against 80% of teams in the league.
 
Vidooq said:
Fair point. Let me re-phrase it. They've done the groundwork for these things. Does it look to you like we've done this with potential targets, and that we have imminent signings that we can announce?
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Believe it or not we're always doing groundwork. Even under Murtough there was always groundwork being done and carried out by him, we don't find out about it until it's successful or it gets reported on. What's more, there have been reports of INEOS meeting representatives of other managers.
 
Leftback99 said:
That would be stupid considering there is an option of another year.
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Perhaps not the smartest move, but from an optics perspective, you could increase the term by one more year and big it up as a sign of faith signing with him signing a new 3 year (2+1) contract.
 
How is it possible that we always seem to make things 10 times as complicated as they are?
 
If he genuinely doesn't know, that's mental. I just don't want to believe that's actually the situation.

Are we going to have a live tv special where the decision is dragged out? "Erik Ten Hag you......................are still the Man Utd manager! How'd you feel??".
 
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Von Mistelroum said:
This shocked me too, until I saw that outside of this forum it's more like 80-90%!

I guess the Glazers have been exceptionally successful at lowering the standards of fans.

Finishing 8th and scraping the FA Cup when Coventry should have booted us out is more than enough for some people to genuinely be seeking a new contract on behalf of a manager setting new, unwanted records on a regular basis.

This is why we're where we are, and where we're likely to stay.
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Imagine how shattered INEOS credibility are gonna be when we roll into the next season with exact same deficiencies (open midfield setup, conceding stupid late goals, etc.) in display and sit 10th in the table.
 
Judas said:
If we've not been working on transfers at the same time as this situation I'm going to be pretty pretty pretty peeved.
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Don't be silly - this is Manchester United; we practically wrote the book on executive competence and forward planning. You can rest assured that they will not have let the managerial uncertainty interfere with the important business of squad building - we'll have three or four new players already lined up, ready to be done and dusted before the Euros.
 
it is all very odd, considering this is going to be an extremely busy period, and even though he's on holiday, he's still going to be talking to them. Either theyve made a decision, which he would have picked up on by now - and if they are sacking him him / his people wouldve leaked it as he needs a new job before other vacancies get taken, or they are still deciding, which itself is odd when you consider how the season actually went. How on earth are they supposed to conduct any other club business like contract renewals / new signings if they havent nailed down if the manager is staying.
 
FrankDrebin said:
500px-Southgate_2023.jpg
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Joking aside, if England win the Euro’s….:o
 
Sky are reporting that ETH is hoping to find out this week whether he will be keeping his job or not so it looks like the review is still ongoing
 
Red the Bear said:
Maybe they have a specific someone in mind and are looking to make sure he's available before parting ways with Eric?

Doesn't make sense otherwise.
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Would like to think it was Tuchel, however maybe this will be another under the radar move for an Inzaghi, Xavi or Amorim.
 
Judas said:
If he genuinely doesn't know, that's mental. I just don't want to believe that's actually the situation.

Are we going to have a live tv special where the decision is dragged out? "Erik Ten Hag you......................are still the Man Utd manager! How'd you feel??".
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You know I have a feeling this could be true. Of course the corporate lot are not actually conducting a football review. It’s a PR review.
 
Infra-red said:
Don't be silly - this is Manchester United; we practically wrote the book on executive competence and forward planning. You can rest assured that they will not have let the managerial uncertainty interfere with the important business of squad building - we'll have three or four new players already lined up, ready to be done and dusted before the Euros.
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Oh. Smooth feckers. Is that the gleam of polished efficiency I see emanating from Old Trafford? The purr of a well-oiled engine? The soothing waterfall of perfect bliss?
 
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