Ah like we were gonna be obliterated by Cheaty FC. The only one who looked like a loser was Pep.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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'"We need to act fast as a lot of clubs are looking for a manager"....and now all those clubs - Bayern, Barca, Chelsea, Juventus, Liverpool - have managers while we are still waiting. This makes me believe that the time INEOS are taking is just for the heck of it. It's mainly for appearances than anything else. Ten Hag will continue as our manager, and likely with another two year offered. The talks happening currently are more likely about the clause where he has total control of the transfers.
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What does a balanced discussion look like? There are more negatives than there are positives. One side wants to keep Ten Hag due to the positive of winning a league cup and FA cup. The other side wants to get rid of Ten Hag because the goal is to win the League and or CL, which requires sustainable winning football. There is more evidence for the latter than the former. So if anything, people wanting Ten Hag out is balanced discussion.
What do you want people to do? To change their minds because now Ten Hag in has 1 single piece of evidence from this season? Because before this, I couldn't name one positive about this season and when I've asked people who backed Ten Hag, their only answer was that Ten Hag switched to a new style of play. The switch itself was a "positive", not the performances or benefits it has brought United. They couldn't name actual positives of this season prior to the trophy. Everything was just deflection, until the trophy.
Speaks for itself. I won’t make a list… Now I’m not denying the negatives. Balance that, though, with … games v. Liverpool, or emergence of young players, or Dalot’s development… etc…
100%, that's why I find the notion of a 'sacking' club to be strange when that's been how every big club has been run over the last decade or so
. The successful ones have no qualms or sentiment when it comes to cutting chords once things turn sour.The only exceptions have larger than life managers but even then, long gone are the days of your Fergies and Wengers being able to stay at the same club for decades.
it explains how gullible pe
this..
you would think after what the fans witnessed pre the fa cup final , they didnt accept mediocrity , but alas 1 game and people are ready to forgive the crap we witnessed for a club like ours
he declined horribly this season , exited europe in record fashion , finished with a negative goal difference and used injuries rather than his poor man management as an excuse....and somehow thats seen as acceptable by fans
funny stuff
this..
you would think after what the fans witnessed pre the fa cup final , they didnt accept mediocrity , but alas 1 game and people are ready to forgive the crap we witnessed for a club like ours
he declined horribly this season , exited europe in record fashion , finished with a negative goal difference and used injuries rather than his poor man management as an excuse....and somehow thats seen as acceptable by fans
funny stuff
For the first time, the number of users wanting ETH in are more than those who want him out. Quite extraordinary given it was 30-70 a couple of weeks ago.
That is not what happened. Look at how many players we have behind the ball when we gain possession for both goals (not that many). We passed out cleanly and then crushed their poor high line. We did not park the bus until about the 56 minute mark. Alvarez doesn’t have that chance he did with the bus parked.
Yes they pushed us back and after Evans and Hojlund came on we properly parked the bus to defend our lead. Better that than remain vulnerable, no? I really don’t remember them creating any dangerous scenarios after the 70th minute other than Doku’s shot.
Half the folks want to be on the right side and tilt towards whereever the pendulum is likely to swing; which currently look like is leaning towards him staying and being offered a contract extension. ETH is very good at making excuses and talking himself up. That's how he got a control of the transfers at such a huge club & got us to buy the likes of Antony, Mount, Onana etc.
Given the lack of a standout manager on the market, coupled with the momentum that seems to have built off the cup win, I would stick with Ten Hag and wait for an ideal candidate to become available, whilst we see if ETH does revert back to 2022/23 form or if this past season was actually where his level is.
ETH might even have a good start to next season, but someone unexpected might become available and we might make a change.
It could be Nagelsmann or Inzaghi.
ETH might even have a good start to next season, but someone unexpected might become available and we might make a change.
It could be Nagelsmann or Inzaghi.
This moment slightly feels like how we upgraded Ole's caretaker status after the champions league win against PSG.
Long post coming up
Well you're not denying, but you're certainly deflecting the negatives considering you and others don't want people to "focus" on the negatives. The positives you listed are not enough to transform United into a league challenging side. We got those positives which gave us this season. Maybe if the positives were based on how we play over a season, I could see a logical line of reasoning that would allow United to eventually transform to a side capable of competing for the leagues.
For example, if Ten Hag was adamant about his style of play, that he would not be pragmatic (I differ on this compared to others that want Ten Hag out) via team selections in what the system is supposed to benefit us, I could be 100% confident in what he values. Your system starts with pressing, yet you are pragmatic in regards to Rashford's playing time even though he is a detriment to the organized press. I'm actually now unsure your pressing will ever be what it's supposed to be, if you're not willing to commit to it now when the end product is as bad as it is (8th place with even worse performances) and you've publicly admitted to not caring about short term results (even though we know that is false).
He also continues to not be pragmatic with how deep the defensive line is. He sticks to his guns regarding how deep United's line should be, even though it makes our press more difficult to cause turnovers, and immediately puts our defenders and midfielders in compromising positions. The result is a record number of shots conceded, an actual terrible defensive record, and adds to the performances that say we're actually worse than 8th place. So in some ways he's pragmatic, and in other ways he's not pragmatic. It feels like we got the worse prioritization in what he's pragmatic in. If this season was always geared to the future, why would you not commit to your system so that you can better find out which players are good enough to withstand the demands of your system? Ten Hag jeopardized our long term future for awful short term results. It makes sense to jeopardize our long term future for short term results, or benefit our long term future with crap short term results, but to half ass it? Now we don't get the long term benefits, nor do we get short term results in the league. We get neither.
There is lots of evidence from the top sides benefiting from pressing, especially in regards to midtable or relegation level opposition. Limiting the opposition is important in a league campaign.
And yet I can't be confident his pressing will ever be what other top sides are doing.
If he values Martinez so much because of his ability to spring attacks from the back, and by giving the opposition less turnovers to benefit from (via calm possession ability), why does he play McTominay? I know the reason, goals. I have trouble coming to terms with what he truly values. Who is to say he will not throw aside everything we think he believes in for the sake of short term results? This isn't a complaint about 1 leg ties in cup competitions, but about league campaigns. When someone is wedded to short term results, confirmation bias can hinder short term results. This season is a perfect example. Rashford saved Ten Hag last season, so the question of "but what if Rashford finally becomes what he was last season" every match influences his team selections and substitutions. Meanwhile, dire performances stack up. It's only after so long did he decided to drastically reduce his minutes. There is nothing to say he won't do this again with other players in the future. Ten Hag has clearly shown this fault of which Rashford and McTominay were examples.
The final reason why I brought up those team selections is because it throws a spanner into the belief that with better players, he will get United transformed. He already is showing that he's wedded to his system in that he will throw up there, the same thing be played over the course of the season, but is pragmatic in his team selections. There is no reason to just believe he will have a system where better players will just slot in to fit the roles his system has. Because he has shown he will undermine the benefits to his system via his pragmatism with prioritizing short term results, it will cause those new players to change their profile. If Rashford can get away with not pressing, does the new player who is typically a hard worker, not work as hard if it means he produces more individual stats? Does it mean the standards his system is supposed to yield, wane?
He's done a poor job in convincing those negative fans that their belief is not rational. The more optimistic fan is instead looking more irrational because it's entirely based on belief and deflection. Deflections that are mostly truthful. So I don't want to say that people who are deflecting do not have legitimate reason to deflect blame away from Ten hag, as even the negative fans admit to our injuries, player quality, and overall bad decision making at the top of our structure. However, those deflections do not bridge the gap from belief to rational confidence in the manager who has now had 1 season worth of evidence in regards to his new system of play.
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What is an ideal candidate? Anyone who comes isn't a guarantee successful. Even with Pep, he will struggle with Rashford, Bruno and Maguire. We don't have a boatload of money for Pep to make this a successful team. He will be a failure and leave United. There is no ideal candidate, ETH is definitely not the one for sure.
The ideal manager will have a philosophy that fits with the clubs vision. We need to get to a point where we can change managers and not see too much upheaval.
I mentioned Nagelsmann, he would be the ideal candidate if the club wishes to follow the gegenpressing (Rangnick) system. We would only sign players tailored to that style of play and his job would be to implement it on the field. But if Nagelsmann was to then move on, we could then bring in Oliver Glasner who operates a similar tactical set up (with a few small variances). You could also bring in Tuchel, Adi Hutter or Marco Rose.
We would see new managers come in, but they'd have a ready made squad with players that are perfect for their system. We wouldnt need to splash 250m every two years because we are changing from a counter attacking manager to a possession manager.
So basically we need to forget about the 2005 mindset of bringing in a manager because of their trophy cabinet or because they are young or old or experienced. But we need to actually follow one vision.
Sack em till you find one that offers improvement, visible improvement since day one. Clear and precise tactics, logical purchase that at least does the job and improve the team
I'm not talking about winning. It takes time. But moving in the right direction
I'm not talking about winning. It takes time. But moving in the right direction
hoodwinked and suffering long term memory loss after 1 game ...we have become that fickle unfortuntately
The fanbase is generally fickle. Has been for some time.
After one good season, EtH was the second coming. After one worse season...The support for Qatar after a decade moaning about city. Oh Teddy Teddy ta ra Fergie
You get the idea.
You really should be talking about winning, it's what competitive football is.
Ineos' problem is quickly emulating ten Hag. 'Give him time' doesn't work if the predecessor won honours and qualified for the CL first time.
We decide what works and what doesnt. Real Madrid sack their title winning coach. We need to have that arrogance as a big team.
We give underperforming manager too much time and money hoping they'd become our next Fergie.
Fergie wasnt give time out of patience but because he has earnt it. Maybe not titles but his work is visible and god knows what he said behind closed door to convince the board to give him time.
ETH has shown nothing good so far. Typical United fans these days a few good games and a letter of appreciation and everyone gets a clean slate.
We need to be ruthless. Fergie was ruthless. His ruthlessness sets the standard, not the other way around. Some players needs an arm around their shoulder, some are just taking things for granted and need to shown the door.
By the same extend giving such player all the time in the world hoping that next year is their year sets our standards too low.
INEOS wasn't around to demand anything, which is the point.
That's fair there are indeed question marks, one about the ability of the Football structure to provide the appropriate players and an other regarding ETH ability to instill a style that isn't already engraved in the club's culture.
Pre and definitely post Ferguson, United probably give managers more time than they would get at just about any other big club. Arguably too much time.
There is likely a minimum performance clause in his contract linked to CL qualification. I doubt us qualifying for the EL makes much of a differencein sacking him, financially.
Not really. pre-season line ups are never really indicative of what the managers starting XI are going to be. By your logic Sancho was always going to be used in a false 9 position as he started a lot of the games in that position..
Mainoo was definitely in his plans for the season, but him starting some games in pre-season doesnt determine he was first choice..
It's getting harder and harder for them to back him and put on a United front, the longer this goes on. To even be reviewing his position in the first place is undermining him. But for the news to break that he was sacked and that we've been wining and dining with practically every manager out there, is even worse. If they cave in to the pressure now, what sort of message does that say? That they fumbled their first big decision? That the fans know better? Whatever way you look at it, it's a real shit show now. I bet they are wishing they sacked him weeks/ months ago now to be honest, when nobody would have said a thing. There's no way he stays and they don't get ridiculed by the media. And I can't even imagine what their relationship would be like. But on top of it all, they not only have to succumb to the pressure, but they have to give him a new deal. Anything else just looks like they don't truly back him again.
Apparently it dropped from c. £9m to £6.25m. How EL qualification changes that I don't know, but if that is correct then it's not enough to sway their decision I don't think.
I don't think anything happens until he's back off holiday, whenever that may be.
Exactly, 9 million is peanuts when you have a manager that has somehow made us worse and spent 400 million doing so.
What is our ceiling of expectation next season?
City have wrapped up the league so top four and a Europa League win be deemed a success?
ETH could deliver that.
City have wrapped up the league so top four and a Europa League win be deemed a success?
ETH could deliver that.
It's the traditional culture of Manchester United to try to be more medium to long term with decisions. Many fans buy into that and don't want to be the Chelsea of the North.
You mention Sir Alex being ruthless, as if it wasn't his philosophy that the manager needed security and control to be successful
Obviously modern football structures are different but the psychology is the same. If players can blame managers and get them the sack because they are more of a financial asset or their wages are too much to shift so its unthinkable to rebuild the squad to back the manager, players sense that and when it gets tough they know where accountability will land.
Ineos need to put their foot down otherwise the last 10 years will continue onwards
I still think Southgate is high on their list, if not at the top. If INEOS haven't made an announcement by the start of the Euros, then I reckon the reality of that will be stronger. I've thought for a while that SJR would love to bring in the England manager on the euphoria of him winning the tournament. It'll be his statement of intent - "Look everyone, the most successful England manager is the one to take us back to the top. And he's English!".
Ineos might be high on him but thankfully ratcliffe is leaving the footballing decisions to the experts no?
He is. We should park the conspiracy theories.
Tons of Southgate posts because one guy panicked everyone with "lul what if we get Southgate"
I'll be honest I don't know exactly how it works, we know as you say his wages for next year drop 25%. But there could be other stipulations that say ''if you don't qualify for the CL then your contract can be terminated for x amount''. Which might be the case as you'd imagine the club would want to cover themselves when hiring a manager on a 3-4 year contract. So the pay off would be the same in year 1 if they decide to sack him for not getting top 4 as it would be in year 2 or 3.
But I'm only speculating.
It's crappy either way. Either we sack him whilst on holiday and it spoils his holiday, or he spends his holiday wondering if he gets the boot when he returns.
My preference would be to know sooner rather than later.
I think most United fans would be happy with that as long as the the style of football and performances were progressing as well.
He was our best and most consistent player last season it’s hardly shocking to claim!
I wouldn’t, top three fighting for the league. If not in the top four by Christmas then it's bye bye.
We are 5/4 players off that I feel.
Our season ended a week after all of them.
And no one on here was/is crying for Maresca, Slot, Kompany
A few people liked Motta and I guess Flick was a popular choice at one point, although not a recent one.What are the odds on them all being sacked by Christmas?
He's becoming/become our version of Benitez.
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