Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[lex talionis]

But we had other chances as well. Garnacho had a very good shot on target before we even scored. You can say that Doku's goal was an extremely low quality chance, does that negate it from being a goal?

The tactics don't require an opposing team to have 70% possession, that is just how City are. Teams won't just sit in their box against us, that's not really how any team plays in the prem. They may have a mid block and the same patterns can be used to attack, which required width and shifting the ball quickly to create overloads.

The Doku chance should have been saved, but it wasn't a poor shot on goal. It had power and placed in the lower left corner, but Onana's positioning and reaction were poor. Not sure what the xG is on that shot, but it's not 0. You can't put the Garnacho's goal and Doku's goal in the same sentence. The former was literally an open net goal after a colossal defensive error whereas the latter was a proper shot on goal the keeper couldn't save but in the estimation of most should have saved.

Right...most opponents will be the ones to sit back on us. We need to learn how to break down parked buses and we've shown no ability to do that despite the fact that our regular front four -- Rashford, Hojlund, Garnacho and Bruno -- had been healthy for most of the season. It's fair enough to blame our defensive weakness when we've been without Shaw, Martinez and Varane for most of the season, but when we've had the ball in the final third we have been consistently unable under ETH to break down opposing back lines. Whoever is conducting the analysis of the two seasons under ETH has to take that fact into account.

 

[Tincanalley]

So why didn't we go back to basic months earlier and we may have got CL football and not be pleading with UEFA about playing in EL. He appears to want to win trophies, but the easy to win ones that will make his CV look good.

Aw, c’mon @DomesticTadpole - you were there though thick and thin. FA cup was far from easy. Remember 4 - 3 v Pool? Remember Rashford goal…. And Amad scoring and sent off?

 

[M16Red]

The Doku chance should have been saved, but it wasn't a poor shot on goal. It had power and placed in the lower left corner, but Onana's positioning and reaction were poor. Not sure what the xG is on that shot, but it's not 0. You can't put the Garnacho's goal and Doku's goal in the same sentence. The former was literally an open net goal after a colossal defensive error whereas the latter was a proper shot on goal the keeper couldn't save but in the estimation of most should have saved.

Right...most opponents will be the ones to sit back on us. We need to learn how to break down parked buses and we've shown no ability to do that despite the fact that our regular front four -- Rashford, Hojlund, Garnacho and Bruno -- had been healthy for most of the season. It's fair enough to blame our defensive weakness when we've been without Shaw, Martinez and Varane for most of the season, but when we've had the ball in the final third we have been consistently unable under ETH to break down opposing back lines. Whoever is conducting the analysis of the two seasons under ETH has to take that fact into account.

Here is a challenge: find a game this season where our passing competition is higher than the opposition? Its normally the first thing I look at.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Aw, c’mon @DomesticTadpole - you were there though thick and thin. FA cup was far from easy. Remember 4 - 3 v Pool? Remember Rashford goal…. And Amad scoring and sent off?

I know I am being a bit harsh. I just want to see something better next season. I don't want us worrying that injuries are going to scupper us again, or they say it is scuppering us. I want quick attacking football, a midfield that is not porous and a defence that seems to know what it is doing.He does need to get off to a good start though. If it is him of course. It needs to be confirmed one way or another if he is staying or going. I said I thought he would be let go, but not entirely sure about that.

 

[sepulturite]

Paddy Power are scum

Lose a bet in there recently did ya?

 

[lex talionis]

Here is a challenge: find a game this season where our passing competition is higher than the opposition? Its normally the first thing I look at.

Are you suggesting that Manchester United really should be struggling to hold possession and create against clubs like Ipswich and Wolves? Some might describe the belief that it's understandable and even acceptable that United struggle against every opponent it faces as "dropping standards". Before the injury spell fell on us we struggled to beat Wolves at Old Trafford 1-0, Forest at OT 3-2, and we lost to Burnley away 0-1. If you go back over our wins in the PL this season we scraped by in most of those wins by one goal. Eyeballing it there was Wolves, Forest, Brentford, Sheffield, Fulham, Luton, Chelsea, Villa, Wolves, Villa, Luton and Newcastle. Not every win by one goal is a close game, but in the majority of those games that we won -- no need to mention here the 14 losses and 6 draws in the PL -- we were not the better side on the day and some of those opponents should never, ever have more possession on the ball that United.

And that's the problem -- under ETH we have been poor in possession, poor in our chance creation and poor in our finishing. Defensive weakness can be explained the losses of our three of our regular starting defenders, but provides no explanatory power in why we've been so poor in possession and goal scoring. Eyeballing the final PL table United scored 57 goals in 38 PL matches, which is only 2 more than Fulham who finished in 13th place. And although I'm sure Fulham's injury crisis was not as grave as ours, you cannot in any way explain away United scoring only 2 more goals than Fulham in the PL apart from something seriously wrong with management of the squad.

 

[Tincanalley]

… Eyeballing the final PL table United scored 57 goals in 38 PL matches, which is only 2 more than Fulham who finished in 13th place. And although I'm sure Fulham's injury crisis was not as grave as ours, you cannot in any way explain away United scoring only 2 more goals than Fulham in the PL…

Lex.. you are kind of fun. But Jesus, are you boring. Look, I don’t mean to patronise, but maybe stick to impressions and vibes. The analysis thing… it’s a long story ….

The other point applies to me as much as it does to you… there’s a small bunch of us spamming in here… but the greater (c. 2000) body of posters, fresh meat n plastic alike, are divided 50/50 on this. Match going supporters are between 70/80% (estimated, let’s not argue) pro manager. In the end, what ever happens it makes for an interesting season next year. Best wishes.

 

[Rolaholic]

'Look I don't mean to patronise'

*Proceeds with post dripping with nothing but condescension*

Never change Caf

 

[Reapersoul20]

Paddy Power are scum

I actually went to school with Paddy and he's a sound lad, it's the wife you want to look out for

 

[Abhinav]

Just finished watching 99. SAF is the greatest ever manager and it is clear to see why he was so successful. The aura, the desire, the presence, the trust of the players, the complete conviction, and the instinct. He was the leader, he was the boss and while he entrusted a great deal of responsibility to other staff members, in critical moments, they all looked at him to come up with the answers. These are also the qualities that you notice when it comes to other great managers like Klopp, Pep, Ancelloti.

Sadly, Erik seems to be missing quite a lot of these, even disregarding the weird tactics we witnessed this year. Hard to be optimistic that he will lead us to any kind of major success.

 

[pascell]

Page after page of people now only discussing injuries as if that's the only reason we've failed this season. Tiresome how some are allowed to spam the thread with the same nonsense.

Reminds me of Groundhog Day and also the Greenwood thread.

 

[tjb]

Lex.. you are kind of fun. But Jesus, are you boring. Look, I don’t mean to patronise, but maybe stick to impressions and vibes. The analysis thing… it’s a long story ….

The other point applies to me as much as it does to you… there’s a small bunch of us spamming in here… but the greater (c. 2000) body of posters, fresh meat n plastic alike, are divided 50/50 on this. Match going supporters are between 70/80% (estimated, let’s not argue) pro manager. In the end, what ever happens it makes for an interesting season next year. Best wishes.

But he's right though. What we saw on the pitch this season was unforgivable. As fans, regardless of whether you like or don't like the manager, that has to be acknowledged. The performances even moreso than the results were what was so disappointing about this season. This was bad football from start to finish. I personally do not think the FA cup win shows anything, because for me, he hasn't shown that he has the tactical quality to win us the league even when we do have the team to challenge. I don't believe in him based on what he's shown.

Why? The tipping point for me came in November. Yes, we had injuries, but I was shocked about his unwillingness to try other formations and systems. Instead, between November and December, he decided that we could not play out of the back with Evans in the back 4, so decided to go route one. We won some games, but this for me was the tipping point. Despite how long he was given, he didn't even try to adjust his system.

To a further point, I actually don't believe his system works in England. I don't think he accounted for the physicality of the league, and as a result he's struggled with it immensely. This happens to a lot of managers, particularly those coming from a significantly weaker league. What irked me though, was his unwillingness to adjust and even try new things to see what works for him. Pep also struggled in his first season, but being able to adjust tactically and try new things allowed him to settle and eventually dominate. Pep saw the gap in having one DM in the Premier League, due to the sheer pace of the league, and adjusted his system to employ an inverted full back. Conte in 16/17 did the same thing. He started with a 433 that wasn't working, adjusted to a 343 and the rest is history. Even Arteta and Klopp have both made tactical adjustments over time that have led to greater success. ETH had a crossroads where the team was flailing and didn't even try. He was willing to watch the team go week after week conceding 20 shots per game. Any sensible manager would have tried to change things, but he didn't. He, like fans, just blamed injuries and sat on his hands. Its not just about not having the quality tactically. He's stubborn, arrogant and slow to make decisions.

 

[Irwin99]

The goal scoring has been one of the big problems- and i'm generally more willing to give EtH more time but you have to acknowledge this. Again though, I don't think he was left in a great position with Martial and Ronaldo last year, and he's clearly gone with youth this year (Garnacho and Hojlund) who are far from the finished article. Rashford's form has been another factor and Antony and Sancho's disciplinary issues has meant that it's all been a bit of a mess. Things can obviously improve though. I was surprised looking at Arteta's 8th place finishes and their attack was actually worse than ours for goals scored but they're now scoring goals for fun.

If he is at the club next year a lot will depend on how Hojlund and Garnacho progress. You would think and hope that a proper squad striker will come in as well, as going into the season with only Martial as a reserve striker was ridiculous and it did harm us.

 

[jaym]

Just finished watching 99. SAF is the greatest ever manager and it is clear to see why he was so successful. The aura, the desire, the presence, the trust of the players, the complete conviction, and the instinct. He was the leader, he was the boss and while he entrusted a great deal of responsibility to other staff members, in critical moments, they all looked at him to come up with the answers. These are also the qualities that you notice when it comes to other great managers like Klopp, Pep, Ancelloti.

Sadly, Erik seems to be missing quite a lot of these, even disregarding the weird tactics we witnessed this year. Hard to be optimistic that he will lead us to any kind of major success.

 

[lex talionis]

Lex.. you are kind of fun. But Jesus, are you boring. Look, I don’t mean to patronise, but maybe stick to impressions and vibes. The analysis thing… it’s a long story ….

The other point applies to me as much as it does to you… there’s a small bunch of us spamming in here… but the greater (c. 2000) body of posters, fresh meat n plastic alike, are divided 50/50 on this. Match going supporters are between 70/80% (estimated, let’s not argue) pro manager. In the end, what ever happens it makes for an interesting season next year. Best wishes.

The point is that we’ve had a very disappointing season, which I trust you join me in acknowledging, and that our attack has been pathetic, which I’m sure you do not deny. Absolving the manager of any responsibility for what has been a very disappointing season except for one day, would be asking for another season of more of the same as we saw this season.

That said, we may not have a good choice but to accept more of the same while we await the availability of a better option next summer.

Question to all ETH supporters — do you support giving him a three-year extension right now?

I didn’t think so.

 

[Ricardo de la Vega]

Are you suggesting that Manchester United really should be struggling to hold possession and create against clubs like Ipswich and Wolves? Some might describe the belief that it's understandable and even acceptable that United struggle against every opponent it faces as "dropping standards". Before the injury spell fell on us we struggled to beat Wolves at Old Trafford 1-0, Forest at OT 3-2, and we lost to Burnley away 0-1. If you go back over our wins in the PL this season we scraped by in most of those wins by one goal. Eyeballing it there was Wolves, Forest, Brentford, Sheffield, Fulham, Luton, Chelsea, Villa, Wolves, Villa, Luton and Newcastle. Not every win by one goal is a close game, but in the majority of those games that we won -- no need to mention here the 14 losses and 6 draws in the PL -- we were not the better side on the day and some of those opponents should never, ever have more possession on the ball that United.

And that's the problem -- under ETH we have been poor in possession, poor in our chance creation and poor in our finishing. Defensive weakness can be explained the losses of our three of our regular starting defenders, but provides no explanatory power in why we've been so poor in possession and goal scoring. Eyeballing the final PL table United scored 57 goals in 38 PL matches, which is only 2 more than Fulham who finished in 13th place. And although I'm sure Fulham's injury crisis was not as grave as ours, you cannot in any way explain away United scoring only 2 more goals than Fulham in the PL apart from something seriously wrong with management of the squad.

We're a transition team. Possession, passing etc; utterly irrelevant. We can be criticised fairly for poor chance creation and finishing - totally fair, and for defensive weakensses - again totally fair, but I dont think any sort of judgement being made on the basis of playing a totally different style of football to that which we're intentionally set up to play tells us anything helpful really.

 

[r0663664]

Overall, he should be sack. There isn't reason to keep him around base of facts. Negative goal difference, struggling to score, dominated by inferior teams in term of possession and goal attempts, unable to control game even if we are up a goal or 2, multiple injuries of player (why?), poor transfer decision. Most of the problem lies with him, it has nothing to do with structure. Yes, we won the FA cup but it doesn't mean he should continue manage United. I think Ineos should completed this review asap. Forget about reputation of us being a sacking club but do what is the best for the club.

 

[Rolaholic]

Overall, he should be sack. There isn't reason to keep him around base of facts. Negative goal difference, struggling to score, dominated by inferior teams in term of possession and goal attempts, unable to control game even if we are up a goal or 2, multiple injuries of player (why?), poor transfer decision. Most of the problem lies with him, it has nothing to do with structure. Yes, we won the FA cup but it doesn't mean he should continue manage United. I think Ineos should completed this review asap. Forget about reputation of us being a sacking club but do what is the best for the club.

Barring clubs with All-Time great/generational managers, which big club in 2024 wouldn't be considered a 'sacking club'?

 

[DLE]

Overall, he should be sack. There isn't reason to keep him around base of facts. Negative goal difference, struggling to score, dominated by inferior teams in term of possession and goal attempts, unable to control game even if we are up a goal or 2, multiple injuries of player (why?), poor transfer decision. Most of the problem lies with him, it has nothing to do with structure. Yes, we won the FA cup but it doesn't mean he should continue manage United. I think Ineos should completed this review asap. Forget about reputation of us being a sacking club but do what is the best for the club.

The club’s decision is now more complex due to a contractual clause that increases the compensation fee if the team secures European football, which they did by winning the FA Cup and qualifying for the Europa League.

 

[Stig]

Interesting to see that Paddy Power has odds on Ten Hag being in charge at the first day of next season or not.

Not to be in charge - 8/13
To still be in charge - 11/10

Mods - Moderators

Please can we have a poll on this , and include No Idea as one of the options.

 

[Plant0x84]

Mods - Moderators

Please can we have a poll on this , and include No Idea as one of the options.

Seems a fairly pointless exercise?

 

[Ibi Dreams]

As it's been 4/5 days now since the final...

do we think, at least, that there wasn't a decision made beforehand like the press said? Surely it would have been done by now if they'd already made up their minds.

 

[IRELANDUNITED]

Paddy Power are scum

Ok, fair enough.

 

[hobbers]

As it's been 4/5 days now since the final...

do we think, at least, that there wasn't a decision made beforehand like the press said? Surely it would have been done by now if they'd already made up their minds.

If there wasn't a decision already made then they're gonna be even worse owners than we're already fearing.

You cant talk to other managers if you havent made a decision on the current one. No club in the world does that for exactly the reasons we saw. Managers and their agents leak which clubs are talking to them.

 

[lex talionis]

We're a transition team. Possession, passing etc; utterly irrelevant. We can be criticised fairly for poor chance creation and finishing - totally fair, and for defensive weakensses - again totally fair, but I dont think any sort of judgement being made on the basis of playing a totally different style of football to that which we're intentionally set up to play tells us anything helpful really.

Can we really state with any confidence that United demonstrated in 23/24 a coherent playing style this season? I don't think so. What we saw on Saturday v City was coherent and beautiful, but what we saw for other 50+ games this season was neither transition, counterattacking, counterpressing, controlled possession, tiki taka or anything else. There are all kinds of explanations for this -- such as downed tools by spoiled brats, the injury crisis or whatever -- but it really can't be argued that United played anything close to a coherent brand of football. And our record in 23/24 isn't much to brag about, the FA Cup notwithstanding.

I'm in the camp that says if there is a better out there right now, let's bring in that manager right now and let ETH go. Problem is, I just don't see a better manager out there right now who is available now. But the case for letting ETH go is not unsound, but where that case falls apart is identifying who the superior manager is who happens to be available as we type these posts. Bayern just brought in Kompany and that's great for Bayern but I would not sack ten Hag for Kompany, nor would I sack ten Hag for Tuchel, De Zerbi, Potter, McKenna, Mouninho or even Ole.

 

[Ibi Dreams]

If there wasn't a decision already made then they're gonna be even worse owners than we're already fearing.

You cant talk to other managers if you havent made a decision on the current one. No club in the world does that for exactly the reasons we saw. Managers and their agents leak which clubs are talking to them.

I would hope we can attribute that to the club being in transition without all of its management and protocol set up yet. I agree that it looks bad.

 

[NLunited]

I would have expected him to be sacked by now.

I think beating Cheaty convincingly was more than just a pleasant surprise, of winning against the odds with a great performance.

Nothing can make up for finishing 8th and the many poor games, but the game showed there is something about Ten Hag and has put doubt in the minds and hearts of the owners.

Smiles all over and fans were crying tears of joy, not for the first time this season. Who’s to say Ten Hag won’t deliver more moments like this? He probably would.

 

[sunama]

The poll is changing because everyone is watching the Youtubers. Its full out pushing for ETH in.

Hey, I watch the YouTubers.
But I am firmly in the ETH out camp. He has resided over the worst EPL season and the post below summarises this perfectly:

*Finished hottom of the table in a group that included Galatasary and Copenhagen.
*Had the worst season in our premier league history.
*14 league defeats in a single season.
*Finished the league with a negative goal difference
* No noticeable improvement in style of play.

What is shocking is that our expensive squad would line up against most teams this season as the underdogs. The fans all pretty much knew that we would play a relegation-battling team and they'd have a good chance of outplaying us.

 

[Tincanalley]

Guardian (Jackson) seem to have been briefed that Brailsford and O’Driscoll are getting to the root of injury problems. Interesting.

 

[NLunited]

Hey, I watch the YouTubers.
But I am firmly in the ETH out camp. He has resided over the worst EPL season and the post below summarises this perfectly:



What is shocking is that our expensive squad would line up against most teams this season as the underdogs. The fans all pretty much knew that we would play a relegation-battling team and they'd have a good chance of outplaying us.

He also beat Villa twice and drew Liverpool twice. And beat Liverpool. With a decimated squad.

But hey, enjoy focusing on the negatives.

 

[NLunited]

Guardian (Jackson) seem to have been briefed that Brailsford and O’Driscoll are getting to the root of injury problems. Interesting.

This article is just pushing Brantwaithe, which I’m not sure we are in for.

 

[hobbers]

I would hope we can attribute that to the club being in transition without all of its management and protocol set up yet. I agree that it looks bad.

Nah that excuse doesnt fly. Because the whole of Ineos Sport are already there managing it or consulting on it. Brailsford, Ratcliffe and Blanc. Plus Wilcox on the ground and the two on gardening leave can communicate if they really need to.

All this stuff about reviews upon reviews is bullshit.

Either they decided to sack him ages ago and are waiting for optics, or they decided to sack him ages ago and have u-turned because they're weak and flappy, or they decided to decide after the final but then accidentally fatally undermined the manager and probably broke all trust with him on the eve of the final. All of those possibilities make them look dumb to be honest, just to differing degrees.

 

[MadDogg]

He has adapted to Ajax, so in theory there is no good reason for him to not do it at United.

There is a difference between going into a possession-heavy team and changing them to be a bit more direct (which is what he did at Ajax from all accounts), and coming into a counter-attacking team and making them more possession heavy and controlled. Hell, even last season we only had slightly more possession than the Ole/Rangnick disaster season, and less than at any other time in the previous decade. This season then became comfortably worse for possession than even that 21/22 disaster.

I'm not sure if he's ever actually coached players to develop a possession heavy style himself. Not saying he hasn't, just don't know if he has.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

He has adapted to Ajax, so in theory there is no good reason for him to not do it at United.

Apart from 2 years and half a billion to the absolute contrary.

 

[Stig]

I think beating Cheaty convincingly was more than just a pleasant surprise, of winning against the odds with a great performance.

But as somebody on here said, we expertly parked the bus and hit them on the break. Unfortunately to beat most teams in the league you have to be able to beat the parked bus - and we can't . So as good as the win was - it was an A typical sort of game.

 

[r0663664]

Barring clubs with All-Time great/generational managers, which big club in 2024 wouldn't be considered a 'sacking club'?

Most big club are changing managers, Barcelona, Munich and Chelsea. It is normal to replace a manager who doesn't meet our expectations.

 

[r0663664]

The club’s decision is now more complex due to a contractual clause that increases the compensation fee if the team secures European football, which they did by winning the FA Cup and qualifying for the Europa League.

We need to do what is best for the club. If club wants to save money and ETH continues to serve out this crap. We will lose more than we can gain.

 

[In Rainbows]

He also beat Villa twice and drew Liverpool twice. And beat Liverpool. With a decimated squad.

But hey, enjoy focusing on the negatives.

If the negatives are more likely to be representative of next season, it makes complete sense to focus on the negatives. There is a time and place to celebrate the title, and a time and place to discuss the upcoming season. When is it deemed acceptable to "focus on the negatives" in Ten Hag's thread?

 

[r0663664]

He also beat Villa twice and drew Liverpool twice. And beat Liverpool. With a decimated squad.

But hey, enjoy focusing on the negatives.

Focusing of a couple of decent result is a loser mentality. The way he set up a team which is destined for failure is what I cannot accept.

 

[NLunited]

If the negatives are more likely to be representative of next season, it makes complete sense to focus on the negatives. There is a time and place to celebrate the title, and a time and place to discuss the upcoming season. When is it deemed acceptable to "focus on the negatives" in Ten Hag's thread?

How about balanced discussions instead of relentless moaning? No one is ignoring the negatives. How many posts are there that don’t mention anything positive?