Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[romufc]

I think he was definitely going to sack him, but I think they're shitting themselves because of all the lunatics coming out of the woodwork.

I dont understand why the FA cup has any bearing on whether they sack him or not, I really hope INEOS are not basing keeping him on one game.

On another day City score first and it looks different. IF they do keep him, should be because they believe in him.

 

[Ludens the Red]

The only trouble with days out injured is it doesn’t take into account squad depth, positional injuries and their relative impact and also the subjective nature of when a player is fit.

See my thread regarding Chelsea. They absolutely had it bad with James, Chilwell and Nkunku but they also had replacements available for those players the majority of the season.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/end...s-and-chelsea-done-rest-of-league-tbc.482902/

Nkunku when available played 4 times as CF, 3 times as AM and 2 times as LW. I would argue that shows the other players I listed are sensible alternatives to consider given he wasn’t played in one fixed role. Gallagher played least 14 times last season in the more advanced midfield role that Nkunku would potentially occupy and the other forward roles saw Jackson, Sterling, Mudryk and Palmer share minutes.

Apologies completely forgot their ages at the start of the season Palmer is 22 now and I thought Colwill was too but he is 21. It’s worth noting though that Gusto had 2 seasons of men’s senior football under his belt from Lyon, Colwill had a full season in the Championship and time in the PL under his and so Palmer weirdly was the only inexperienced player being played (and what a season he had).

The reason I bring that up is because you can reasonably expect more experienced players to deal with adversity better. I love Garnacho and Mainoo but we really shouldn’t be trying to compete for CL spots with two teenagers being key players.

I’ll be finishing Newcastle at some point today but having had a look I can say confidently we’ve had the worst luck of the 3 clubs. So for me it makes perfect sense that we might not finish above them. I don’t like it in fact I’m annoyed to no end by it.

- True to the first point to an extent. But then you look at the relative impact in our case and it doesn’t quite fall into line. So basically we’ve had big problems in defence with injuries but our attack has generally been available, yet it is our goalscoring record that has been a massive hindrance to us this season.

- I can see why you don’t think Chelsea’s injuries are comparable based on what you’ve put as Chelsea’s first team. But you’ve left Fofana and Nkunku out who without question will be first team players when fit. That would bring their overall availability percentage in line with ours. We’ve generally had replacements all season except for Lb and those two or three games Casemiro was forced to play CB. But I recall Chelsea having to play Colwill at left back for a period too.

- yes you can reasonably expect more experienced players to deal with adversity better but at Manchester United it has been the complete opposite so it can’t really be used I don’t think as some sort of negative: And as you’ve said look at the season Palmer had at Chelsea, would they have been better off playing the more experienced Sterling every week?

- Newcastles will again be comparable and we absolutely should not have been finishing behind them.
Pope - 27 games missed
Trippier - 12 missed
Botman - 28 missed
Joelinton - 28 missed
Barnes - 31 missed
Isak - 12 missed
Tonali unavailable since Autumn

Then even their back ups too had injuries, Wilson, Willock etc.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

Well what does strongest available XI matter? When you're nowhere near full strength, it doesn't mean shit. Every team plays their strongest available XI every week.

By that logic, ETH took us to 8th with a negative GD with his strongest available XI every week. Should be fired out of a cannon.

I feel like you're shitting over your own point more than mine. Yet being a twat towards me for absolutely no reason. Anyway glad we agree.

 

[G_and_T]

Just here to say I would like ETH to stay. I know that will have no weight at all in the offices of Man Utd and INEOS, but I am really tired of how this club keeps changing managers and expecting different results.
Before Sir Alex won the European Super Cup in 1991, Man UTD hadn't won anything in Europe since 1968. It takes a long time to find a manager who can build a squad and win things, and ETH is managing to win things. You can't take that for granted.
Also people pretending Poch, Tuchel and Potter are better than ETH must be smoking something, because I just don't see how any of them do a better job. We need a 5 year plan not a 2 year plan and I hope INEOS get some good sense asap and back ETH for the forseeable future.

 

[pocco]

I would like you to go review this one more time. Quansah started 10/15 of the last PL games for Liverpool, Bradley started 10/12 PL games when Trent was injured.

Alot of teams who play extra time make personnel changes. A team that started with their strongest 11, ofcourse they cant start their strongest 11 on paper due to injuries.

Its like saying Manutd didnt take the PL seriously this season because they had Kobbie, Kambwala, Garnacho playing so Manutd didn't take the PL seriously?

Firstly, yes they did play 10 or 15 games. Because of injury. That doesn't make them first choice, and certainly doesn't make them experienced players.

Secondly, I'd like you to review what I have written and show me where I said that Liverpool or anybody didn't take it seriously. I'll help you out - my point was that not every team played their strongest XI, as initially claimed. That's the top and bottom of it. I'm not interested in your strawman arguments that you are trying to create to try to discredit my original point.

 

[Who's Kissing Cameras?]

Guardiola does it all the time and he is generally full of it.


That man is an absolute menace.

Fair enough! He needs to be stopped!

 

[TsuWave]

Why do people say “I can see him staying given the alternatives available”? He’s in the same/similar upcoming manager tier as the widely reported shortlisted ones, and he’s older than all of them

 

[pocco]

I feel like you're shitting over your own point more than mine. Yet being a twat towards me for absolutely no reason. Anyway glad we agree.

I'm sorry, but your post came off as passive aggressive - I thought your point was what you had written, not something else. I just don't see how meaningful it is if teams played their strongest available team, when they are decimated by injury. It's a bit of a misleading point, to try to navigate the fact that they were struggling with injuries. I didn't think it would create such a debate, as it was a reasonable point to make.

 

[Kirk lazarus]

Of course missing players matter .

The bbc website has not been updated post Fa cup , but the guy who can do no wrong , guardiola over the last year or so has a win rate of 54,5% win rate without rodri .

That takes him into very similar win percentage territory to Ten hag .

Peps win rate with Rodri is phenomenal , almost 80% .

If 1 player can make such a huge difference to peps ability , you don't have to be Einstein to understand the problems we've had this season .

 

[afrocentricity]

Brexit Jim and the Marginal Gains

What's this about?

 

[pocco]

Why do people say “I can see him staying given the alternatives available”? He’s in the same/similar upcoming manager tier as the widely reported shortlisted ones, and he’s older than all of them

I'd love to know what these posters are waiting for. We've got CL winners, up and coming managers, coaches that have took underdog teams to playing good football etc. What do these posters want in our next manager and how long are they willing to wait?

 

[romufc]

Firstly, yes they did play 10 or 15 games. Because of injury. That doesn't make them first choice, and certainly doesn't make them experienced players.

Secondly, I'd like you to review what I have written and show me where I said that Liverpool or anybody didn't take it seriously. I'll help you out - my point was that not every team played their strongest XI, as initially claimed. That's the top and bottom of it. I'm not interested in your strawman arguments that you are trying to create to try to discredit my original point.

I mean if players are injured what do you want teams to do? Play injured players ?

They fielded their strongest available 11. I dont know that is a strawman argument.

 

[romufc]

I'd love to know what these posters are waiting for. We've got CL winners, up and coming managers, coaches that have took underdog teams to playing good football etc. What do these posters want in our next manager and how long are they willing to wait?

Would you take Di Matteo as manager because he has won the CL?

 

[Wilt]

And if that was how things should work, Alex Ferguson would have been sacked years before the Premier league even started.

If INEOS are simply the types of owners that purely focus on short periods of time, then Man Utd is no better than Watford or Chelsea. And, those are not clubs I admire.

Try keep it real ….best not compare Ten Hag to SAF

 

[LawCharltonBest]

I'm sorry, but your post came off as passive aggressive - I thought your point was what you had written, not something else. I just don't see how meaningful it is if teams played their strongest available team, when they are decimated by injury. It's a bit of a misleading point, to try to navigate the fact that they were struggling with injuries. I didn't think it would create such a debate, as it was a reasonable point to make.

If the debate is straight up 4th vs FA Cup then I don't see what difference injuries make. I don't have a magic ball to say for absolute certain but I think most would accept that if Spurs, United, Chelsea, Newcastle etc had as few injuries as Aston Villa had this season, then at least one or two of them would have finished above them. But injuries are football, Villa are the ones who got 4th and they deserve it.

In the FA Cup, only one team will beat every team they play. That team is the deserving winner regardless. That team was United.

I'll always think a team who wins the cup but finishes outside the top 4 is hard done by not getting a shot at the Champions League. I fully accept not everyone will agree

 

[Tincanalley]

Not sure what to make of all of this but surely the longer this goes on the less the chances for him to stay?

I mean what else do they need to look at? They have been watching Ten Hag, games, training for months now. What more are they going to learn about him?

I might be wrong but just the way SJR treated Ten Hag post the cup final, he didnt seem too excited when he shook his hand but gave Pep a hug, no mention of the manager in his post congratulating the team. All this just points to a decision to sack has been made, they probably want to wait a few days so its not the same as LVG and they can say we carried out a review etc...

Body language and words - or lack of - tell me SJR had decided to sack Eric pre final. Just like he’d decided to bring back Greenwood. But there are voices at that top table going against that. Strong voices. Perhaps a stalemate, leading to delay, delay (Jim then took out his ire and showed his toughness in the printing pool). I foresee some kind of compromise, some kind of qualified offer to ETH which tries to cover all bases, including fan sentiment, which they are very sensitive to.

 

[pocco]

I mean if players are injured what do you want teams to do? Play injured players ?

They fielded their strongest available 11. I dont know that is a strawman argument.

No? But let's not say they played their strongest team when they didn't. Neither did we, as I pointed out too. Anyway, it seems there was a misunderstanding over that point with the other poster.

They fielded their strongest available 11. I dont know that is a strawman argument.

Let's not play silly beggars. The strawman argument is you trying to claim that I said Liverpool didn't take it seriously. And then had the cheek to ask me if I thought we didn't take the league seriously, which is a point that you made up as a strawman. I simply said they didn't have their strongest XI.

 

[Shark]

I'd love to know what these posters are waiting for. We've got CL winners, up and coming managers, coaches that have took underdog teams to playing good football etc. What do these posters want in our next manager and how long are they willing to wait?

I do understand not wanting someone like Potter or Southgate, feck me that would be horrible, but they're still acting like these two are literally the only two options. INEOS listening to the fans instead of making logical decisions is a big red flag to me. Before we won the FA Cup he was definitely being sacked and now they're doing a U-Turn because of fan pressure? Really disappointing.

 

[pocco]

Would you take Di Matteo as manager because he has won the CL?

Let's be serious now.

Should ETH keep his job because he won an FA Cup? Di Matteo had a better achievement than ETH and he's the butt of your jokes. That tells you everything about this whole idea that winning a cup is good enough.

 

[pocco]

If the debate is straight up 4th vs FA Cup then I don't see what difference injuries make. I don't have a magic ball to say for absolute certain but I think most would accept that if Spurs, United, Chelsea, Newcastle etc had as few injuries as Aston Villa had this season, then at least one or two of them would have finished above them. But injuries are football, Villa are the ones who got 4th and they deserve it.

In the FA Cup, only one team will beat every team they play. That team is the deserving winner regardless. That team was United.

I'll always think a team who wins the cup but finishes outside the top 4 is hard done by not getting a shot at the Champions League. I fully accept not everyone will agree

I think the EL entry is fitting for the FA Cup and I've never seen anybody really claim that FA Cup should be enough for CL entry. Consistency over a season to be in the top 4 best teams > win an FA Cup, where you can rely on penalties as a lottery to get through rounds.

 

[romufc]

Let's be serious now.

Should ETH keep his job because he won an FA Cup? Di Matteo had a better achievement than ETH and he's the butt of your jokes. That tells you everything about this whole idea that winning a cup is good enough.

No but I am not saying to keep Ten Hag because he won the FA cup, but you are saying Tuchel because he won the CL. Tuchel is an overrated manager that will blow in 2 years when things dont go his way, thats just how he is. Toxic.

 

[pocco]

I do understand not wanting someone like Potter or Southgate, feck me that would be horrible, but they're still acting like these two are literally the only two options. INEOS listening to the fans instead of making logical decisions is a big red flag to me. Before we won the FA Cup he was definitely being sacked and now they're doing a U-Turn because of fan pressure? Really disappointing.

I 100% get them not wanted those two. But it's yet another strawman really, because there are much better options available. There's coaches who have displayed better football in the PL than ETH. There's coaches who have better achievements, coaches who have done well with underdog teams and could be the next big thing (which is what many have been saying for years we need to be looking out for - just obviously not at the expense of their beloved Ten Hag!).

 

[Mainoonited]

Gary Neville reckons we should keep him for another season. He argues that Manchester United are part of the problem and that Bayern are struggling to find replacements.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ttfEpGcyZLA

Personally I'm all for ETH out - but i see his point.

 

[saivet]

Why do people say “I can see him staying given the alternatives available”? He’s in the same/similar upcoming manager tier as the widely reported shortlisted ones, and he’s older than all of them

It can be argued that it's more risk averse to stick with ETH given he's won a couple of trophies and should have learned lessons about the club and players in the two seasons he's been here. Any replacement would require a learning curve and may not even do as well at ETH, so it's worth giving ETH a bit longer. He's not an Ole calibre of manager where there are guys out there with much better credentials. I think one of the issues with ETH is that you're not likely to get a manager available who's significantly better available (i.e. Pep, Klopp or Zidane), so what do you do, indefinitely keep him until an elite manager comes around or one emerges?

I think there has to be a consideration of how well the manager fits the club too. For example, I would say someone like Simeone is a better manager, even someone like Conte as well, however neither are good or better fits to the club than ETH. I'm not saying this is the case but some might think there isn't much between ETH and Poch but some may consider Poch a better fit for the role.

 

[pocco]

No but I am not saying to keep Ten Hag because he won the FA cup, but you are saying Tuchel because he won the CL. Tuchel is an overrated manager that will blow in 2 years when things dont go his way, thats just how he is. Toxic.

You don't know that. If they interview him, and the way he wants to work is exactly how we want him to work, then there might be no issues. His falling out with other clubs has been for reasons such as them not being aligned on transfers (and Dortmund CEO Watzke wanting their CL game to go ahead after somebody tried to blow their team up, which Tuchel understandably didn't like).

 

[LawCharltonBest]

I think the EL entry is fitting for the FA Cup and I've never seen anybody really claim that FA Cup should be enough for CL entry. Consistency over a season to be in the top 4 best teams > win an FA Cup, where you can rely on penalties as a lottery to get through rounds.

But that is the case in the Champions League. Seems a harsh reason not to allow a team in. It's literally a skill which can win you the Champions League itself. Hence why I'd like to see cup winners given a shot in the biggest cup competition. They're more qualified than a team who finishes 4th in a league table

 

[KiD MoYeS]

Why do people say “I can see him staying given the alternatives available”? He’s in the same/similar upcoming manager tier as the widely reported shortlisted ones, and he’s older than all of them

Ten Hag has probably had a better two year period than any of the alternatives mentioned to be fair.

 

[pocco]

But that is the case in the Champions League. Seems a harsh reason not to allow a team in. It's literally a skill which can win you the Champions League itself. Hence why I'd like to see cup winners given a shot in the biggest cup competition. They're more qualified than a team who finishes 4th in a league table

I should also add that not only penalties, but getting through rounds by facing lower league teams also. We played Coventry in the Semi's and scraped through, you don't get that in the CL.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

I should also add that not only penalties, but getting through rounds by facing lower league teams also. We played Coventry in the Semi's and scraped through, you don't get that in the CL.

But you will get teams who finished 2nd in the Romanian League. Who I'd argue are worse than most, if not all, Championship teams

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

No but I am not saying to keep Ten Hag because he won the FA cup, but you are saying Tuchel because he won the CL. Tuchel is an overrated manager that will blow in 2 years when things dont go his way, thats just how he is. Toxic.

Tuchel has a much longer record than simply "winning the CL once."

 

[quadrant]

But that is the case in the Champions League. Seems a harsh reason not to allow a team in. It's literally a skill which can win you the Champions League itself. Hence why I'd like to see cup winners given a shot in the biggest cup competition. They're more qualified than a team who finishes 4th in a league table

I've always wanted the FA Cup to bring a CL place, that would absolutely transform the competition. However the big clubs would never permit it, since it would probably reduce their chances of getting in in favour of smaller clubs. That would never do.

 

[Ayush_reddevil]

The no alternatives available argument is the worst ever. Just assess him on his performances and we will deal with the replacements later. If you want to sack him but are not doing it because of no alternatives then the process is all wrong

 

[Rista]

But you will get teams who finished 2nd in the Romanian League. Who I'd argue are worse than most, if not all, Championship teams

We should know how bad these european teams are. Imagine having to play Copenhagen and Galatasaray.

 

[saivet]

Gary Neville reckons we should keep him for another season. He argues that Manchester United are part of the problem and that Bayern are struggling to find replacements.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ttfEpGcyZLA

Personally I'm all for ETH out - but i see his point.

I've not watched and I get the point but I don't think Bayern's struggles should put us off sacking a manager (if we don't believe he is the right guy). They've gone for Alonso (realistically he is never going to manage United anyway), Nagelsman (a candidate for United but also a weird dynamic given the sacked him not long ago), Tuchel (he would be available to United but Bayern burned the bridge), Rangnick (been there and done that) and Kompany (we would never make that move nor would he come to United).

That path simply isn't one which United would follow and I think Bayern's issue was sacking someone so early without having a replacement lined up which has left them scrambling. Their mismanagement shouldn't scare us, if anything just make us more prepared. Even without looking at other options, you have Tuchel and Poch available and willing to join the club. We wouldn't find our self in a situation where we're appointing our 5th choice manager.

 

[romufc]

You don't know that. If they interview him, and the way he wants to work is exactly how we want him to work, then there might be no issues. His falling out with other clubs has been for reasons such as them not being aligned on transfers (and Dortmund CEO Watzke wanting their CL game to go ahead after somebody tried to blow their team up, which Tuchel understandably didn't like).

https://www.bavarianfootballworks.c...goretzka-kimmich-de-ligt-upamecano-gnabry-tel

Example of him falling out with Bayern players, anyone who thinks he isnt going to fall out with Manutd players is deluded. He has a looooong history of falling out with senior players.

Whatever the reason of falling out, the point is he has fallen out with every club.

Its quite hypocritical for INEOS to say they want to build something then go for a 2 year cycle manager, Tuchel has shown in his entire career, he is not a project manager.

This is Manutd, where regardless what you think of they have to give youth a chance too, I dont see that with Tuchel either.

He is the worst choice of appointment if we are to sack ETH.

 

[JPRouve]

Gary Neville reckons we should keep him for another season. He argues that Manchester United are part of the problem and that Bayern are struggling to find replacements.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ttfEpGcyZLA

Personally I'm all for ETH out - but i see his point.

One of the reason Bayern struggle is that their board is and has always been made of maniacs which has led them to two issues this summer. In the past 10 years they have hired nearly all the very good and experienced managers(and none of them is eager to comeback) and they are also a massive risk for any young manager that currently has a good reputation, everyone is getting sacked within two years and will have to spend at least 12 months of being slandered by the sausage king. Also the other option is Klopp but he suggested that he will never coach them due to his relation with Dortmund.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

https://www.bavarianfootballworks.c...goretzka-kimmich-de-ligt-upamecano-gnabry-tel

Example of him falling out with Bayern players, anyone who thinks he isnt going to fall out with Manutd players is deluded. He has a looooong history of falling out with senior players.

Bayern Munich players contrived a way to fall out with Carlo 'friendliest man-manager in the world' Ancelotti, it's possible they're the most annoying people on earth.

 

[Ludens the Red]

I've always wanted the FA Cup to bring a CL place, that would absolutely transform the competition. However the big clubs would never permit it, since it would probably reduce their chances of getting in in favour of smaller clubs. That would never do.

Don’t really understand the logic here. Why would it suddenly make smaller clubs start winning it? In about 30 years of FA and League Cup finals you can name the handful of non big six teams who’ve won those competitions.
Wigan, Portsmouth, Swansea, Leicester, Middlesbrough, Birmingham. The other 54 finals have been won by United, city, Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea, Spurs.

If anything it would make the bigger clubs take it even more seriously, in particular those not looking like finishing in the top four.

 

[romufc]

Tuchel has a much longer record than simply "winning the CL once."

There is 0 evidence that Tuchel can build a squad. Everywhere he has been he has taken over teams. Chelsea he took over half way and won the CL, same as Di Matteo.

PSG and Bayern he took over teams that consistently win their league and actually both times in Germany nearly bottled it.

 

[romufc]

Bayern Munich players contrived a way to fall out with Carlo 'friendliest man-manager in the world' Ancelotti, it's possible they're the most annoying people on earth.

My point is so are Manutd players. I mean every 3/4 months we see stories about this.