Sheer will and luck in the final? We outplayed them and had more chances, higher xG etc, what luck?
Unless you consider having more possession = outplaying.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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Unless you consider having more possession = outplaying.
The manager said that if he doesn't get a contract with us he will go and win trophies elsewhere because that is what he does. For a moment I thought that he was SAF or PEP
Ten Hag's Ajax played with a false on few occasions. Otherwise his main strikers have been Huntelaar, Dolberg, Brobbey and Haller.
This is an issue, if United keep Erik I estimate it being less than 5 games into the season until the poor performance barometers begins to show strong evidence and it will fall back into a player or two having to bail out the team for the sake of a result in spite of a terrible performance.
That is the blueprint we saw against Wolves in August this season and the manager has done next to nothing to rectify it. I don't think Erik has the tactical intelligence to pivot poor performance because as other teams have shown you can still perform to a relative level in spite of injuries.
There's zero reason to keep him as the manager beyond sentimentality.
Hojlund has the attributes for such a role.
It's impossible to say, but the current batch really isn't very inspiring. Perhaps Alonso becomes available after another year with Leverkusen, or McKenna proves himself in the Premier League next season as well. That could be two options that might look attractive in a year (admittedly Alonso might be difficult to get).
I think it's a tough call, because with the options we have available right now it just seems inevitable that the next manager will also be very temporary. It seems like an "Anyone but ETH" approach. The alternative is to keep him and see if he can do something with more stability in players availability. Then we can assess again after next season.
Southampton were playing 4-3-3 possession football from first team to academy under Wilcox watch.
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How easily some have forgotten 18 months of dire football. How some make every excuse under the sun for Ten Hag. Just so that by September when the crap football is still "miraculously" present, we wonder how with proper structure and new players, things are like this.
The times he has chosen to change his ways have brought success, yet that does not tell him, let alone the fans, that his ways are a problem...
The times he has chosen to change his ways have brought success, yet that does not tell him, let alone the fans, that his ways are a problem...
If Erik was sacked after the palace or Arsenal game no one would have questioned the decision as it has been a terrible season. 1 FA cup final and fans writing letters to INEOS is strange. Imagine losing first 2-3 games of new season then what? Are you ready to still back him or panic and sign a new manager after a season started.
I don't think we are any better than we were two years ago, so by that by that metric he should go.
However, he does have a knack for delivering cups and there really isn't a managerial option out there that screams success to me. I would be okay with him staying. Assuming he agrees to being a head coach rather than a manager. He would obviously need to earn a contract extension too.
However, he does have a knack for delivering cups and there really isn't a managerial option out there that screams success to me. I would be okay with him staying. Assuming he agrees to being a head coach rather than a manager. He would obviously need to earn a contract extension too.
Absolutely.
This is honestly not true at all. Klopp had an absolutely disaster of a season when Thiago and VVD were injured and Liverpool spent the majority of it fighting in the relegation places until VVD returned and they regained form in the final stretch of the season. They were also playing disastrous football and everyone was banging 2-3 goals in them almost every game. To say Liverpool always played great, well coached and injuries had no effect on their performances is just straight up revisionism. Unfortunately unlike Klopp, ETH never got that luck. Our entire squad went injured for the entire season.
I think people are seriously underestimating how much injuries can hamper your squad, especially one such as ours when our options on the bench are not... sufficient, to say the least.
Because people are, by and large, mental.
You’ve got a hardcore group of people that will back the manager because we are Manchester United and that’s what we do, and they won’t back down from that. We could have Hitler in charge, and they’d keep the same dogmatic position. That makes up about 20% of our fan base. They can best be identified by their glowing sense of superiority and a bullish dose of condescension. This group is best ignored.
Then you have about 75% that make up their mind based on the most recent result or series of results. This group wanted him sacked after the 4-0 defeat against Brentford, a lifetime contract after the Carabao cup final, another sacking after the 7-0 against Liverpool, another lifetime contract after finishing 3rd, sacking after the first ten games of this season, patience after the injuries, sacking after Palace, lifetime contract after the Cup Final. They may also make decisions on the manager based on how often he picks the latest in vogue player. Usually a fairly untested youngster from the academy, or a hip overseas signing with little PL experience. They can usually be found grazing unverified accounts on Twitter, or by their proclivity to label everything either the absolute best or the most vile, despicable worst. They are rarely seen inhabiting the middle ground. Often attack their prey by labelling the presentation of any data as a “Rafa Benitez style fachts rant”. This group is also best ignored.
Finally you have the remaining 5% who form a decision on the manager based on a wide sample size of results and performances, overall progress trajectory, taking into account mitigating factors. They’ll also factor in other variables such as money spent, players available, alternative managers available, and long term strategic intent. This group is an endangered species and is often hunted and slaughtered by the other two groups. As a result they are rarely spotted in the football forum, and in the rare occasions they are, they usually operate in small herds.
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I think we’d already know if he was staying, I mean why wait to announce it?
He’s gone in my opinion, they are just letting the weekends result to die down a bit
He’s gone in my opinion, they are just letting the weekends result to die down a bit
I'd have been unenthusiastically accepting of someone like Amorim or Gallardo.
I don't think the bar for a new manager is that high, but people are being exceptionally head-in-the-sand about how totally awful and unsuitable the prospective candidates currently being linked are.
Close, i would almost agree with this. You are wrong about the first group though, think they are easily 20%.
It's also possible that, with our new structure starting to control things, we recruit 3-4 players in the summer with great attitude and high ability, who are also able to stay fit, and then, coupled with returning players and the young players continuing their upward trajectory, results on the pitch start to improve.
I think he deserves one more chance to see if he can do it. The current alternatives (Tuchel, KcKenna, De Zerbi, Southgate, Pochettino) do not make me convinced they can come in and do any better given they would probably require a season to get bedded in. As we saw with big Ange at Spurs, he started on fire then they tailed off a fair bit once the new manager bounce faded.
Edit: I will also freely admit I am also partly being driven by emotion from the weekend, and can completely understand those who think he should be replaced. I have been consistent in wanting him to stay as I genuinely feel the club situation with the sale to INEOS and the terrible injury crisis have been massive mitigating factors. I'll concede that despite this, he and the team did still massively underperform - but I want him to stay one more season just to find out
My mistake. The patient ones are obviously too busy listening to Tchaikovsky and meditating to be Youtubing
Poll is probably hours away from being 50/50
Do you even know what a false 9 is supposed to do?
Right, which is especially impressive given that he never worked at Newcastle.
Edited, because I don’t disagree
Big day today. "Where were you when the 'Keep or sack ETH' poll hit 50/50?" will be a question asked many times in the future.
Being 8th in the league is something that can be brushed off now? Unbelievable how low standards have fallen where a cup trophy can justify finishing so low in the table. You can guarantee that injuries excuse will be out soon in the new season as well when injury prone players like Shaw and Martinez have injuries again. We’ll be told how finishing 7th isn’t actually bad as long as we win a cup.
We're all treating the claim that INEOS are doing a review and only then will decide as nonsense.
However, there's a chance that they really just haven't fully decided yet.
8th place flattered us and whether we like it or not financially we cannot survive long-term without CL football. Well unless we just want to settle for being a plucky mid-table team.
I don't see any other option that is clearly better than, you can argue Tuchel, Poch and a few others are in the same bracket but none are clearly better like your Klopp, Pep, Ancelotti etc
Any new manager coming in will want to give everybody a chance and have a bedding in period, I don't necessarily want ETH because he's amazing but I don't think paying him off to bring another manager who isn't clearly better than him - I have to consider what the biggest issue at the club is and it's clearly the drop off from our first XI relative to other teams, from Hojlund we have Martial (Now nobody) we don't have a reserve #6 our 4th choice CB is lindelof who plays a very different style to our typical first choice so I think no manager with this disjointed squad (In terms of style profile) would do better. We need to move out those that don't fit the style we want to play and build, next year I would imagine the manager pool will be that much greater.
Any new manager coming in will want to give everybody a chance and have a bedding in period, I don't necessarily want ETH because he's amazing but I don't think paying him off to bring another manager who isn't clearly better than him - I have to consider what the biggest issue at the club is and it's clearly the drop off from our first XI relative to other teams, from Hojlund we have Martial (Now nobody) we don't have a reserve #6 our 4th choice CB is lindelof who plays a very different style to our typical first choice so I think no manager with this disjointed squad (In terms of style profile) would do better. We need to move out those that don't fit the style we want to play and build, next year I would imagine the manager pool will be that much greater.
Apologies, I clearly meant Southampton and was confused about the technical director from Newcastle YOU alluded to.
Yes a false 9 is a centre forward that drops deep to recieve the ball in central areas, to move defenders and link up play helping with possession in the final third and creating chances for themselves and others, what about Hojlund suggests he can't do that?
Not sure how much bragging the scousers will be doing when they just hired a fat ten Hag as their manager.
After 38 match, league position doesn’t flatter anyone. We deserved to be 8th.
Yeah I knew it would go quiet for the rest of the week, you also make a very good point about potential candidates seemingly in no rush to go anywhere
No not at all, and I hope that INEOS, Wilcox, Berrarda, Asworth etc have reviewed this alongside every other aspect of Ten Hags position. That's why if he stays, I am happy that they have seen something you and I haven't.
If we are just reviewing him on 8th place why do we need all these directors? Atheist off that Redcafe has it all under control.
Injuries aren’t an excuse it’s a very big reason why things didn’t go well this season. Are you a mouthpiece for ABU shiteheads like Shearer and Linekar because far too many on the cafe fall for this narrative that injuries are an “excuse”.
Can debate his competence in other areas but you cant argue with the fact that Poch is clearly better at getting his teams to play attacking football and score goals in this league.
Liverpool finished 5th with 67 points, with no trophies, after chasing for the title whle being dominating and achieving remarkable 92 points the previous season. Should Klopp have been sacked going by that logic? I don't think anyone is arguign that it wasn't a shitty season for us, but there are serious mitigating circumstances on and off the field that should absolutely be taken into account. It's like you guys still think we're living in the Fergie days where anything below winning the title was disappointment. Unlike Moyes Ten Hag inherited a shambles of a team that just finished the season with 58 points. Before that our team under Ole finished with 66 and 74 points which isn't all that great. The difference is Ten Hag has had to deal with millions of other issues during that time and he brought us to 3 finals, 2 of which he won.
If this was post-Fergie when Moyes sent us to a disastrous 7th place after being champions... yeah, sack him. But come the feck on people, before Ten Hag we finished 6th. We weren't anywhere near to challenging even though his first season was rosy and he achieved more than anyone expected of him
Okay put it this way, if Ten Hag had just had this exact same season with Chelsea and then was let go, would you be clamoring to sign him? Negative goal difference, garbage football, laughable CL campaign, and numerous embarassments within the past year but he won the FA cup? Is that going to the top of the list of candidates?
Of course not. Which is why this stance that because a name doesn't stand out means it's not an improvement is just one wrapped in ignorance.
There we go this is exactly what I said yesterday about people only seeing those three as clearly better.
Not really. If you have like for like second options in the squad, fair. If you don’t, it’s a massive problem.
Dalot vs AWB at right back.
Varane/Martinez vs Maguire/Evans/Lindelof
None of our backline have like for like alternatives. That requires wholesale changes to approach every game.
The midfield and forward lines?… similarly disparate.
Even that's subjective, we didn't have a striker for half the season and haven't scored above 60 goals for a while in a league so you could argue that our attacking players aren't as good as Chelsea's. If you look at Ajax he did manage to make them score freely and quickly said he can't play that way here and I think a lot of it is due to the profile of the squad.
Because in reality the two main misses were a CB and LB, with the rest of the squad being available for the a good part of the year to varying degrees. It's not like we were trotting out random youth players in midfield/defense/attack for months on end. We largely HAD our full attack fit for much of the year as well as our midfield (apart from Mount who could hardly scrape minutes when fit anyways).
So yeah injuries affected us, but never should have been to the point that many want to act like it did. And either way, the lack of adjustments to those injuries is just as damning.
Yet it's funny considering Tuchel and Poch had arguably worse seasons with their respective teams yet people here want to replace Ten Hag with them.
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