To be fair he had 9 months in which to tweak them.
Yet until the last few games he didn't. And I don't believe he didn't recognise it was shit long before then.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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To be fair he had 9 months in which to tweak them.
Yet until the last few games he didn't. And I don't believe he didn't recognise it was shit long before then.
He failed enough to get sacked mid season. The only reason they revived a talk was because there were no managers available that proved to be any less of a risk than what he was. This is because as I said earlier - both Tuchel and Ten Hag are objectively good coaches who would probably learn from the mistakes they made.
That doesn't mean his form wasnt sackable at Bayern, because he was literally sacked.
Maybe, but what we do know is he has a 100% record of falling out with owners, which means that even if the sustainability of his coaching is too early to question, the extent to which he's adaptable to club structures is not.
We had more than "OK" periods last season, and broadly outperformed expectation. Moving on to this season, we have comparable if not worse injuries with the 2 sides that finished 0 - 3pts above us. But we also won an FA Cup, and they didn't, meaning Ten Hag had a better season than them. He did it the hard way, and one of the coaches tipped to replace him bottled a cup against Liverpool academy kids, and couldn't show the bottle against the team we put aside in the final. That counts for something.
Yeah he was rubbish his second season at Spurs. Considering what he's done in his career I imagine that isn't his "best skill"
And that was his stubbornness in thinking it would eventually click like it did with Ajax when everyone doubted him. He should now know the PL is a different beast, but he should also have room to make his mistakes, so long as he keeps us relevant. He did that this year by bringing home the FA Cup.
Why do we keep discussing? Ten Hag is gone and rightly so. He was horrible this season, just horrible.
Yeah I think I got sucked in by the predictable knee jerk statements after yesterday.
I will call it a night.
Spot on.
Mate, you're just coping. Tuchel isn't an upgrade on anything. You just want ETH out, so you're overlooking all of Tuchel's shortcomings because the fact of the matter is that there is not a single manager out there that is available which can improve us.
Tuchel is a weird one. His trophies have all been in either been in farmer's league A with PSG or farmer's league B with Bayern. In both these teams he underperformed. He never won the CL for PSG and he finished 3rd in a 2 horse race with Bayern. The year before that he scrapped past Dortmund(finishing level points mostly because Dortmund chocked in the last day of the season).
Now his famed CL comes when he arrived in the middle of the season with Chelsea. The reason I bring that up is that Chelsea has only reached a CL final when their manager was appointed mid-season: Grant(runner's up in the league and CL to us) and Di Matteo. The fact that he hasn't won anything of significance after that final just proves that he is a good coach, but not an immediate upgrade on ETH.
Trophy says differently. I understand that if we get new manager, we are looking for atleast 2 trophies a season to not getting sacked? Right?
Staying or going, decision is going to be made soon. I would expect in maximum two weeks time if my information is correct.
No I just think he has clearly shown himself to be a better manager than Ten Hag. You can disagree, I can't be bothered going back and forth with 10 people all typing 5 paragraphs per message.
If you were pleased with what was offered up by Ten Hag last season then I'm genuinely pleased for you.
Forget the other six!
Sorry for delay in replying, I’ve just tried out that Google thingy that you suggested… it’s fantastic! How long has it been about?
I typed in ‘Tuchel issues’ and there was A LOT of comments about him being awful to work with, nasty, toxic, couldn’t do better than Nagelsmann… they don’t sound like good attributes?
Despite you skipping my questions (I can rephrase them if it helps?) and still holding your top secret quoting formula to yourself (a bit selfish iibh), I’m not one to avoid difficult questions so …. no, he hasn’t shown SIGNIFICANTLY more.
He improved Chelsea in the league a bit (ok), he won a CL (tick tick) and a few farmer trophies (mehhh). Better… maybe, significantly… no. And not recent. And reputation for being a tw@t.
Yes, he was close to another CL final but you seem to have forgotten (accidental exclusion Im sure) that so was Ten Hag… literally seconds away. With a quite young team… nice football too?
And it’s just hit me about your comment on Leverkusen being “factually” better than the 2013 Bayern treble winning team, l.o.l. (I got that from Google). So putting aside they got ABSOLUTELY schooled by Atalanta, isn’t three trophies better than two. It’s certainly more (I’m really good at maths)?
And extrapolating your logic of unbeaten and more points (and logic is doing a lot of heavy lifting there), that means Arsenals 2004 Invincibles are better than United 99? That’s odd because I could have sworn we were better…. damn
LFTR and don’t forget the quoting secret!
It's very flawed logic to be honest.
Mourinho has proven to be a much better manager than Tuchel. He's past it though, he's peaked, and you're only as good as your last stint as manager.
Tuchel's stock is low, he's abrasive and I think his past 2 years at Bayern have certainly been a worse demonstration than Ten Hags last 2 seasons at United, on full balance.
Tuchel didn't get knocked out of the German cup by Leverkusen. In fact it wasn't even a Bundasliga team. I think they're in the 3rd division.
Tuchel also didn't just finish behind Leverkusen. Bayern operate in a two horse league since as long as I can remember, 20-30 years? He's the first manager in god knows how long to finish 3rd in that two horse race.
Despite that, both he and Ten Hag are objectively good coaches in horror seasons. I wouldn't sack one for the other.
i don’t think ETH made many mistakes this season if we look in different angle. He just did what he believed. The team didn’t click. One of the main reasons is that he misjudged the injury situation. His real mistake/flaw imo is his lack of application of rotation.
Just look at the league -- the league never lies.
-1 goal difference, the historical number of losses and 8th.
One win doesn't make a summer as they say.
This has been the worst season in living memory. One cup win will not wash that off or shine a turd.
-1 goal difference, the historical number of losses and 8th.
One win doesn't make a summer as they say.
This has been the worst season in living memory. One cup win will not wash that off or shine a turd.
Fair enough, you’re definitely more patient than me.
I guess the biggest part of my frustration has been specifically how he reacted (or didn’t react) to our injury crisis. If you’re playing a second choice back 4 or constantly having to chop and change it whilst battling a poor run of results, then as manager you just have to be a bit more adaptable and pragmatic. Make some tactical adjustments and give your downtrodden squad a fighting chance by setting them up with some more fecking protection from midfield! Refusing to do so only to see us concede the same goals again and again to mid table teams has been infuriating, and likely further dented the already eroded confidence of this team.
A key part of management is adjusting tactically to the circumstances beyond your control, and I just no longer have any faith he’s the right man to be able to do that for us in the league.
And one won a trophy when the other one didn’t.
It really doesn't. Ending the season on a high does not change the overall picture. We still finished 8th. We still embarrassed ourselves in the CL. We still got outplayed week in week out by every pub team. We still ended up with a negative GD after 38 fecking games. Manchester United!!
Ten Hag still came out with horrible statements like saying that people stating the obvious and daring to criticize him were lacking 'common sense'. Constantly blaming injuries for the damage done by his team instructions. He still bought a goalkeeper for loads of money because he is good at passing only to decide on a style that completely magnifies his weaknesses, having him kick long and inviting dozens of mid to long range shots each game. Need I go on?
Ten Hag has performed horribly, overall. He deserves to be sacked without any shred of doubt and he can have absolutely not complaints about it, though something tells me he will.
Well it did, like it or lump it. It's not one win, it's an entire run of an FA Cup. The benefit of this (outside of adding a major honour to the clubs name) is that we get European football ahead of two teams who finished above us.
We have the same prize as Totttenham with the difference of winning a cup over them.
It’s utter tripe, otherwise there would be an acceptance that this season has been awful for injuries, we dealt with off field issues and disciplinary issues which will affect squad morale and performance and based on 2/2 trophy winning seasons we should back ten Hag to ‘build something’ with the support of INEOS. However that is never going to happen, because a spoilt entitled minority in our fanbase who expect us to be winning the league every year also seem to be the loudest when it comes to complaining and reading the manager down, whoever that might be.
Sure, ask some concise questions (maximum of 3 and a limit of 200 characters) and I will respond at some point tomorrow morning or afternoon.
No it isn't, he's the only United manager of my 20 years as a ST holder to be boo'd on multiple occasions in one season when making the wrong substitution.
When the dust has settled on the cup win, many will realise that this season has not been good enough at all.
19 losses over one campaign, in which we embarrassed ourselves in the CL is not good enough.
An 8th place finish and an FA Cup win is not a successful season and it is one in which we've regressed.
If we stick by him, I'll back him fully. My feelings have never changed that I want him to be a success here and do well, my belief has just really wittled down to very little sadly.
You can think what you want. I watch Tuchel teams and they have never, ever looked as tactically inept as we have for basically a full season.
I don't share your faith that Ten Hag will suddenly stop being tactically inept and would take a manager that has won either the league or champions league in his last 3 jobs above that.
Ten Hag likes to comment how bad the club was when he took over as a way to insulate himself from the 8th place finish. He neglects to mention that we actually finished 2nd, 3rd, and 3rd in the preceding 5 years. I would give him a pass if we finished 5th this year, but finishing 8th and having one of the worst seasons in nearly half a century is more than enough to sack him immediately. We sacked LvG for finishing 5th after winning the FA Cup and dismissed Jose even though he won us the EL, so it wouldn't at all be unusual to get rid of a manager for anermic league results even though they managed a cup along the way.
I heard boos during Jose. and some during LVG days. Ole too but he got way more patience being a club legend.
Im not a St holder but float at different ends when I get tickets. I've been at the Stretford end and south stand with some games in the gods. The view on ten hag was consistent in being for him. This included some losses such as Palace and Brighton.
- You think Leverkusen are better than 2013 treble winning Bayern?
- You think Leverkusen are “factually” the second best team ever because of unbeaten season/points so you think Arsenal 2004 are better than United 1999?
- As I apparently quote in the wrong (?) way, what’s the right way?
Add to that, by every statistic that is measured we were actually extremely lucky to finish in 8th and quite lucky to finish in the top 10.
Standards are on the 7th layer of hell beneath the floor.
We’re calling Ligue 1 farmer’s league where trophies shouldn’t be counted but we should instead count the Eredivisie and the Dutch Cup as achievements worth mentioning? That seems hypocritical to me.
So he should be sacked but if he’d had half a dozen more points and got fifth, you’d give him a pass?
If any United manager goes from 3rd place to 8th in one year after spending a near record amount on new players, then they should be sacked. Each of our other post Fergie managers were correctly sacked for poor results, so ETH shouldn't be exempt from the same scrutiny.
Kind of like how you're ignoring all of Ten Hag's shortcomings because you've decided to blindly back him like a good top red.
I mean where was the logic that Arteta would be the guy to finally turn Arsenal into contenders again? Where's the logic that Zidane would be able to elevate Real to 3 straight UCL titles? Both didn't even manage a club before getting those jobs (Zidane managed Castilla but that hardly counts).
My point is you make educated risks with any hire, and if the plan from INEOS is: "We are going to get much younger, ship out a good portion of the current squad, and build through the wonderkids we buy with a long term view" then McKenna is an excellent option to oversee that as a modern progressive manager that has very good handling of young players. It's not a complete dart throw like you suggest it is. On the flip side, if the plan is to rebuild and get back into the top 4 ASAP while retaining much of the current squad then yeah McKenna would be a strange choice. Tuchel would be the best option for that route.
This really should be taken out of the argument. Ten Hag didn’t set the price or negotiate on behalf of the club. He can be critiqued (not criticised) for his target players but the price has nothing to do with him.
Its others who through lack of experience either bend over and pay over the odds or simply give in to the manager without any checks or balances along the way. The club did this long before ten hag arrived and hopefully INEOS will get a grip of it.
The injuries excuse makes me dislike him. We finished 8th. Finishing miles off the top 4 with a -1 goal difference tells me that even if we had everyone fit we’d still be miles off challenging for the league, which he should be reminded is where we want to be. We did the whole scraping top 4 and winning a trophy last year.
Thank you
Excellently formatted questions.
1. No which is why I named the side you are referring to as the best in the post you quoted where I named Leverkusen as the second best.
2. Statistically they had the second ever highest points total and were "invincible" so they are definitely in the discussion but yes I'll hold my hands up and say I didn't watch a lot of the Bundesliga in the 1960's. They definitely had a special season.
3. You post long rambling messages where you post back and forth about various points made in the post you are replying to with very little distinction. You also switch between sarcasm and coherent serious points with very little to differentiate the tone. Have no idea if this is how you usually post but that's my experience. There is the performance review.
Not pleased, far from it. But I also understand that our club is very unique in the regard that money suits ran it into the ground with their corporate asset value nonsense.
He is slowly clearing out the troublemakers and celebrity star players in favor of professional and hungry pros. Not comparing him to SAF, but ETH is doing a clearout of sorts and reseting our club culture. The difference is that instead of alchoolics, we are getting rid of social media "stars" and players who are here just to earn a paycheck.
Looking at the likes of Hojlund, Garnacho, Kambawala, Mainoo makes my heart fill with joy. That's why I want ETH to continue what he is doing. The man has his heart set in the right place and the players seem to agree with it.
This is such a strange argument to make that I'm sick of even debating it. Ludicrous logic.
Also acting like 8th place and negative goal difference is a huge hurdle to overcome is laughable.
No reply to 2 (Arsenal v us) or 3 (how to quote - you didn’t say post).
And didn’t mention Bund 60s.
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