Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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OverratedOpinion said:
You don't type in a particularly coherent fashion.

I'm sadly well over 15, just factually the second best considering it is the second highest points total and invincible.

You made no other points other than yes we beat City, we were good for 1 game of the season. Imagine beating both those teams you consider the hest with an unfancied team on the way to the Champions League. What a dream.
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No? Which bit?

Second best? And not just second best, “factually the second best”. So which Bayern team are they “factually” better than then? The 70s team winning leagues and European Cups in a row or the 2013 treble one? I though it was just Arsenal kids who used invincible as some form of greatness.

Again, YOU started the “winning” discussion about the hest manager, not me. Imagine bringing up winning as a point but then wanting to ignore one who’s won something this season and one who hasn’t. What a dream.
 
OverratedOpinion said:
Reason they decided to dump him then basically beg him to stay?
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^ after they got rejected by all the candidates they had drawn up. Alonso, Nagelsmann, Hoeneß and Rangnick all decided to stay put, so they had little choice but to ask him to stay for another year. But that had nothing to do with them suddenly realizing what a brilliant coach he's actually been.
 
saivet said:
The argument seems to be for continuity sake and in hope rather than actually believing. One has to consider their feelings towards doing nothing, forgetting about the possible replacements too.

Compare us and Chelsea. If Chelsea fans were debating sacking Poch and appointing ETH, they'd probably say the same thing that they wouldn't touch him.
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I think he will go. But, I just wish the apparent candidates to take over were slightly more inspiring.
 
BeforeKeanetherewasRobson said:
No? Which bit?

Second best? And not just second best, “factually the second best”. So which Bayern team are they “factually” better than then? The 70s team winning leagues and European Cups in a row or the 2013 treble one? I though it was just Arsenal kids who used invincible as some form of greatness.

Again, YOU started the “winning” discussion about the hest manager, not me. Imagine bringing up winning as a point but then wanting to ignore one who’s won something this season and one who hasn’t. What a dream.
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The weird way you quote.

The 2012/2013 that got 91 points. Going invincible whilst getting that close is pretty close.

Yes he's won leagues at multiple clubs, champions leagues ect. He is quite clearly a winning coach.
 
I’ve changed my vote to KEEP.

But can we let McKenna go to Brighton and ask him to insist on a Man Utd clause as an insurance policy for 12 months time? :devil:
 
Infestissumam said:
^ after they got rejected by all the candidates they had drawn up. Alonso, Nagelsmann, Hoeneß and Rangnick all decided to stay put, so they had little choice but to ask him to stay for another year. But that had nothing to do with them suddenly realizing what a brilliant coach he's actually been.
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Sooo the takeaway is that they realised getting rid of him was a mistake?
 
Robbie Boy said:
The 4 names seem to be Poch, Frank, McKenna and Tuchel. It's not a great list. I would 100% rather keep ETH than touch Poch or Frank. I wouldn't be devastated if we go for Tuchel, but not delighted either. As for McKenna? I think it's too early for him, personally.
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Poch finished above Ten Hag with the shitshow that is chelsea, not to mention a massive injury list as well, whilst getting them playing good football to watch,.
 
The ridiculous overrating of Ten Hag by our fanbase has probably got our rivals in stitches at this point.
 
OverratedOpinion said:
Sooo the takeaway is that they realised getting rid of him was a mistake?
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the takeaway is that they wanted to get rid, then realized that their prefered options didn't want to come, then scrambled and took a "keep Tuchel for one more season and try for Alonso/Klopp/Hoeneß again next year" stance.

But yeah, keep spinning it the way you want to. You want to dress up his underwhelming Bayern tenure as a success? Go ahead. But that is a fecking weird hill to die on.
 
bitcoin said:
I’ve changed my vote to KEEP.

But can we let McKenna go to Brighton and ask him to insist on a Man Utd clause as an insurance policy for 12 months time? :devil:
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Going to Chelsea the way they are run these days would not be very smart. Lucrative, but not very smart. Brighton offers him a good squad, good recruitment and allowance to not do anything significant other than get the team to play good football. Pep probably leaves next season, who knows what happens with Slot, Chelsea might boot their next guy quickly anyway, Newcastle might boot Howe and - if we keep Ten Hag - we might be looking at replacing our manager next season too. It would not take him all that long to get a top job if he took the Brighton job to get to grips with managing a club - and the media - in the Premier League.
 
Infestissumam said:
the takeaway is that they wanted to get rid, then realized that their prefered options didn't want to come, then scrambled and took a "keep Tuchel for one more season and try for Alonso/Klopp/Hoeneß again next year" stance.

But yeah, keep spinning it the way you want to. You want to dress up his underwhelming Bayern tenure as a success? Go ahead. But that is a fecking weird hill to die on.
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I'd say winning the league in a top division and Champions League Semi is always a bigger success than winning the a couple of domestic titles with horrendous league form.

I don't think I'd call his time there a success overall but the fact that it is being used as a stick to beat him with when even that down point in an incredibly impressive career is objectively better than what Ten Hag has offered here is weird.
 
OverratedOpinion said:
But wait in

The weird way you quote.

The 2012/2013 that got 91 points. Going invincible whilst getting that close is pretty close.

Yes he's won leagues at multiple clubs, champions leagues ect. He is quite clearly a winning coach.
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Sorry, is there a different way to quote? How do you quote, I’m always keen to learn from experts in their field.

Leverkusen are better than the 2013 Bayern treble winning team? That’s what you’re saying (I just want to check)?

I’m going to try and quote you again now, sorry if I do it wrong (I’ll blame Mrs Williams my English teacher, god bless her soul and for the inability to correctly quote :().… “Yes he's won leagues at multiple clubs, champions leagues ect”.

By “multiple”, you mean two? Two one horse leagues? Great. I think Poch won one with PSG, can’t be that hard?

By ”champions leagues”, I only knew the one with Chelsea, what was the other one? A good achievement regardless, I agree. Honestly.

And by “ect“ (I’m guessing you mean ‘etc’ but your coherency is better than mine so I’d better not assume your spelling isn’t also. It could be an acronym), you mean a cup with Dortmund and a couple with PSG? Superb.

I see the CL with Chelsea, nothing else grabs my attention if I’m honest. Sorry.
 
OverratedOpinion said:
He won the league then lost it to the second best team in the history of the league.

Mixed bag, Leverkusen were generationally good but the standards are always high at Bayern and fairly so.

Generally looked well set up with no outright idiocy tactically when I saw them this season though.
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He didn't just finish behind Leverkusen. And he didn't even meet a Bundasliga side when he got knocked out of the domestic cup. This season wasn't a mixed back. It was diabolical.
 
OverratedOpinion said:
I'd say winning the league in a top division and Champions League Semi is always a bigger success than winning the a couple of domestic titles with horrendous league form.

I don't think I'd call his time there a success overall but the fact that it is being used as a stick to beat him with when even that down point is objectively better than what Ten Hag has offered is weird.
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speaking of domestic titles, you conveniently leave out the part where Tuchel crashed out in their cup against Freiburg last year and Saarbrücken this year. He did win the Bundesliga title last year, but that was down to Dortmund losing at home to Mainz on the final day, not the brilliant football Tuchel had them playing.

By the way, I'm not defending ten Hag here. I'm still in the sack camp, so that has nothing to do with it. But if the alternative is Tuchel, yeah, I'd stick with ten Hag and that's not a particularly hard decision for me. Tuchel would be an incredibly underwhelming and uninspired choice in my opinion.
 
BeforeKeanetherewasRobson said:
Sorry, is there a different way to quote? How do you quote, I’m always keen to learn from experts in their field.

Leverkusen are better than the 2013 Bayern treble winning team? That’s what you’re saying (I just want to check)?

I’m going to try and quote you again now, sorry if I do it wrong (I’ll blame Mrs Williams my English teacher, god bless her soul and for the inability to correctly quote :().… “Yes he's won leagues at multiple clubs, champions leagues ect”.

By “multiple”, you mean two? Two one horse leagues? Great. I think Poch won one with PSG, can’t be that hard?

By ”champions leagues”, I only knew the one with Chelsea, what was the other one? A good achievement regardless, I agree. Honestly.

And by “ect“ (I’m guessing you mean ‘etc’ but your coherency is better than mine so I’d better not assume your spelling isn’t also. It could be an acronym), you mean a cup with Dortmund and a couple with PSG? Superb.

I see the CL with Chelsea, nothing else grabs my attention if I’m honest. Sorry.
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Has Tuchel had a significantly more impressive managerial career than Ten Hag?
 
pcaming said:
He waits till the last game of the season to do something, and tides change. Such low standards.
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I was all for him before he came, loved it last season but have honestly struggled with some selections, tactics, performances, subs this season.

But I do recognise the injuries (to important players to the system) and I don’t think we can ignore trophies… they’ve got to mean something?

I’m still torn on him (per first sentence) but don’t see a clearly better alternative. In the absence of one (in my underrated opinion), I’m prepared to give him a third season and hopefully we have a much better injury record because then our success/not will be a truer reflection.
 
VP89 said:
He didn't just finish behind Leverkusen. And he didn't even meet a Bundasliga side when he got knocked out of the domestic cup.
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Yeah I think he realised it was insurmountable and focused on Europe. Went out to Madrid by a goal in the Semi Finals.

Listen if he had won the league at a canter and was in the champions league final next weekend then a manager of his quality would not be available.

Take a look at what he would be replacing. A manager who has been tactically inept for a full season in the league.
 
Infestissumam said:
speaking of domestic titles, you conveniently leave out the part where Tuchel crashed out in their cup against Freiburg last year and Saarbrücken this year. He did win the Bundesliga title last year, but that was down to Dortmund losing at home to Mainz on the final day, not the brilliant football Tuchel had them playing.

By the way, I'm not defending ten Hag here. I'm still in the sack camp, so that has nothing to do with it. But if the alternative is Tuchel, yeah, I'd stick with ten Hag and that's not a particularly hard decision for me. Tuchel would be an incredibly underwhelming and uninspired choice in my opinion.
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So he's a manager who got Dortmund challenging, won leagues at PSG and got them to the Champions league final, won Chelsea the Champions League and got them closer to City and Liverpool, won the league with Bayern and Champions league Semi.

If you are Ten Hag out and he is underwhelming then who on earth is whelming?
 
OverratedOpinion said:
Yeah I think he realised it was insurmountable and focused on Europe. Went out to Madrid by a goal in the Semi Finals.

Listen if he had won the league at a canter and was in the champions league final next weekend then a manager of his quality would not be available.

Take a look at what he would be replacing. A manager who has been tactically inept for a full season in the league.
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Right but he is available because he failed badly.

My point is quite clear - 1) Ten Hag has made his own mistakes, just like Tuchel has and needs to learn from them. He more than likely will. 2) Tuchel's stock is very low, but even if we agree he's got his strong coaching pedigree intact and hasn't dipped like Conte did in England, he like Conte has too much of a reputation of being difficult to work with, which makes him an even bigger risk.

There is very little reason to punt on Tuchel outside of "we might get more competitive for 18 months before it goes tits up". I think with tweaking to his system, Ten Hag can progress us. And he's already a junkie for Wembley finals, so I don't have a concern on that front either.
 
Stunned by the change in numbers in the thread, hope the board have a better plan than looking at just one game
 
VP89 said:
Right but he is available because he failed badly.

My point is quite clear - 1) Ten Hag has made his own mistakes, just like Tuchel has and needs to learn from them. He more than likely will. 2) Tuchel's stock is very low, but even if we agree he's got his strong coaching pedigree intact and hasn't dipped like Conte did in England, he like Conte has too much of a reputation of being difficult to work with, which makes him an even bigger risk.

There is very little reason to punt on Tuchel outside of "we might get more competitive for 18 months before it goes tits up". I think with tweaking to his system, Ten Hag can progress us. And he's already a junkie for Wembley finals, so I don't have a concern on that front either.
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The Southampton manager finished tenth with Swansea then got them promoted today. Tuchel had to deal with an unreal Leverkusen side and a dysfunctional board at Bayern. ETH at least has dealt with two boards here let him do whatever he wanted despite the horrific results. If Tuchel should be unhirable based on this season, then why should anyone take a punt on ETH when you take account of the awful league form he presided over?
 
Atheist said:
I do wonder - would any of the top 8 or even 10 sides hire him? I don’t think so.
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I reckon they would. Proved he can win trophies in multiple leagues now there's very few managers capable of that.

Regardless football is the most recency biased sport on the planet its ridiculous. Wasn't long ago Ang was in Japan, Howe was relegated and fired from Bournemouth, Emery sacked and laughed out of the league at Arsenal and up until last season Arteta hadn't even got himself a top 4 finish in 3 seasons and was on the verge of the sack multiple times
 
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Blood Mage said:
The ridiculous overrating of Ten Hag by our fanbase has probably got our rivals in stitches at this point.
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One of the weirdest things for me. The perception people seemingly have of him and what he’s actually accomplished are miles apart. All due respect to the Dutch league, but the FA cup is probably the biggest thing on his CV now, or at least on par with them fugazi Ajax/Eredivisie titles
 
VP89 said:
Right but he is available because he failed badly.

My point is quite clear - 1) Ten Hag has made his own mistakes, just like Tuchel has and needs to learn from them. He more than likely will. 2) Tuchel's stock is very low, but even if we agree he's got his strong coaching pedigree intact and hasn't dipped like Conte did in England, he like Conte has too much of a reputation of being difficult to work with, which makes him an even bigger risk.

There is very little reason to punt on Tuchel outside of "we might get more competitive for 18 months before it goes tits up". I think with tweaking to his system, Ten Hag can progress us. And he's already a junkie for Wembley finals, so I don't have a concern on that front either.
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Failed so badly they begged him to stay.

Conte is also a better manager than Ten Hag based on all available evidence.

Your blind hope that he will stop doing what he has done for 2 years and start doing a good job is something I'm pleased you have. It honestly must be nice.
 
Zumbi said:
He also coached us to some of our worst ever PL and CL showings, and some of our worst ever performances. And not just in one area - there have been huge question marks over his tactical failings across the pitch: unable to keep clean sheets or hold leads; conceding the same sorts of goals over and over again; the most porous midfield in the league; no semblence of a cohesive attack or consistent patterns of play. If you want to ignore the larger volume of evidence that comes from 38 league games and six CL games all because of an FA cup run then crack on. Many of us won’t.
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A lot of this is indisputable this season, I think even ETH himself agrees…but why is the poll still roughly 50/50? I think partly because people see the mitigation of the injuries, and give him credit for the flashes of good performances that have been shown over the 2 seasons (chiefly when Martinez plays - big problem is how over reliant everything seems to be on him playing). Just as managers can have freak good seasons, they can have freakish bad ones too, and I’m willing to look at ETHs larger body of work and not write him off because this year was awful until Saturday.
 
pratyush_utd said:
Argument for ETH is cup victories and dressing room support. Argument is to give a bit more time and patience and see if it works out. Atleast till November because ETH deserves a chance in my opinion with competent team working with him

Tuchel most likely wont join any club this summer if it aint us.
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Dressing room support isn't much of an argument to be fair. Not sure what we're supposed to see between August and November next season that we couldn't have seen between August and May this season. Seasons been a disaster, so bad I don't think the Cup win will save him.

And the club can't be going into a season with the mindset ''let's give him a few months and see how he does''. He already got that time from January onwards this season, things got worse. If the club has any doubts about him being the right man going forward then they will sack him this summer. They haven't spent £1.5 billion to dick about, risk tanking a season only to find themselves doing in October and November what they should have done in the summer when more managers move clubs.

There won't be any romanticism involved in their decision, it'll be methodical and looking at performance in an objective way. In the league and Champions League we were atrocious by just about every metric.
 
OverratedOpinion said:
Failed so badly they begged him to stay.
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They sacked him and tried to get him to stay because there are no established managers available. Again, this is why I see little value in moving now, the market is pretty shit.
OverratedOpinion said:
Conti is also a better manager than Ten Hag based on all available evidence.
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He's ill suited to Manchester United stylistically and also a walking timebomb. I'd argue he peaked a while ago, and like Jose, was really good once upon a time, but the game has past him by. Ten Hag will probably win trophies elsewhere if not with us next season, Conte won't.
OverratedOpinion said:
Your blind hope that he will stop doing what he has done for 2 years and start doing a good job is something I'm pleased you have. It honestly must be nice.
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He hasn't done it for 2 years, don't make things up. And it's not blind hope. The man has won a cup every season bar 1 in management, and he's known for a lot better football than what we've seen for the past season and a bit. He's also had a shit hand with injuries and structural context, which is a big factor too. I'm putting primary issues to his open system this season but the injury and structural uncertainty most certainly exacerbates the issue.
 
McFred said:
A lot of this is indisputable this season, I think even ETH himself agrees…but why is the poll still roughly 50/50? I think partly because people see the mitigation of the injuries, and give him credit for the flashes of good performances that have been shown over the 2 seasons (chiefly when Martinez plays - big problem is how over reliant everything seems to be on him playing). Just as managers can have freak good seasons, they can have freakish bad ones too, and I’m willing to look at ETHs larger body of work and not write him off because this year was awful until Saturday.
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The poll is 45/54 because we won the FA Cup, that's it.
 
glazed said:
And they didn't have Glazers buying Casemiro, Mason Mount, Weghorst and Johnny Evans.

We know how ETH wants to play and we know he can't because he hasn't got the players. You can blame that on him or bad luck or the Glazers but we know that he has a plan and it's been frustrated by having the wrong players available. If he had the right players then he would have got the results I think.
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It seems like we played the way ETH wanted to for most of the season.

It was shit.
 
stevoc said:
It seems like we played the way ETH wanted to for most of the season.

It was shit.
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It was executed shit and the tactics themselves certainly needed tweaking. He's the first to admit that - he called the league campaign "crap" by his own words. That's not his standard and it's not his ceiling.
 
VP89 said:
They sacked him and tried to get him to stay because there are no established managers available. Again, this is why I see little value in moving now, the market is pretty shit.

He's ill suited to Manchester United stylistically and also a walking timebomb. I'd argue he peaked a while ago, and like Jose, was really good once upon a time, but the game has past him by. Ten Hag will probably win trophies elsewhere if not with us next season, Conte won't.

He hasn't done it for 2 years, don't make things up. And it's not blind hope. The man has won a cup every season bar 1 in management, and he's known for a lot better football than what we've seen for the past season and a bit. He's also had a shit hand with injuries and structural context, which is a big factor too. I'm putting primary issues to his open system this season but the injury and structural uncertainty most certainly exacerbates the issue.
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If he failed as terribly as you say that wouldn't have been an option for them.

I agree Conte would be a bad appointment right now, as would Jose. I think both are a bit past it (could come back after some time to freshen up but Utd isn't the place to do it). It would be very early to make that assesment on Tuchel.

The football in his time here has ranged from okayish to horrendous. Our injuries have been no worse than some other teams and the week to week squad he has had available is capable of far more. It is a managers job to get more out of the players available, not less. The biggest cause of us looking like such an incompetent football team for a year is Ten Hag deciding to play 1 man in midfield with a deep back line.

I understood this after the very first game of the season when I strongly backed him and assumed he would be pragmatic and change. I am no football genius.
 
OverratedOpinion said:
Conti is also a better manager than Ten Hag based on all available evidence.
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Conte threw a season long tantrum and alienated everyone at Tottenham because the board only bought 5 of the 6 players he requested in the summer, and the next season the new manager finished 6 points better after Kane was sold in the summer. Conte's best skill is knowing how to get sacked when things get difficult.
 
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